Are there any serious questions anyone would like answering about the above, i am the person to speak to regarding this, well me and another member actually!
Fire away.
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Are there any serious questions anyone would like answering about the above, i am the person to speak to regarding this, well me and another member actually!
Fire away.
OK,
I'll take the bait...
Whom are these unit's actually manufactured by?
Where are they sold?
Is proper service manuals available? (where?)
Were on the market are you placing yourselves?
(Is LG your main competitor or is it Toshiba)
Why are your units better than the "old" brands?
What are your technical backup like?
Just a few to get you started...
Hi All,
Just heard about this thread.
Sorry took a while to answer your questions.
I am the Technical Manager for Vaillant.
The units are made by 3 Chinese manufacturers, Chigo (Which Vaillant own 5% of), Haier and Midea.
All of which are controlled by our own quality assurance people in Germany and Spain.
They are sold country wide by United Refrigeration, Ryan Air Conditioning Spares (Manchester) and ACS NW (Liverpool).
Full service, installation and user manuals are available both electronic and hard copy.
Because Vaillant are a relatively new comer to the UK we place ourselves around the LG area.
Our units are better than the old brands as we are all R410a now and later in the year all cassettes will be inverter.
We also have fixed speed wall mounts on the ECA.
The technical back up is superb (I maybe a little bias on this one).
To my knowledge we have no faults in the field.
There are not many manufacturers who can say that.
My mobile is permanantly on as I know what is like being an engineer requiring assistance on the weekend and late at night.
I think I have answered all of the above questions but please feel free to drop me a line.
Good to get feed back.
Do they come with a parts and labour gaurantee like the boilers do? (last time i checked the boilers come with a 2 year parts and labour gaurantee)
Yes they do Dean.
However unlike the other manufacturers we actually do all the warranty work ourselves leaving the installers to work on other projects.:D
:confused:Very strange comments Magic.
As with all manufacturers whether it be from Japan,China,Italy or Germany. The UK market is a very established place.
You'll also find that Vaillant has apparenty been training up its combi boiler / plumber guys to do the installs, that's why they are offering the warranty repair. Quite simply they wouldn't expect their boiler / plumbers guys to do this as they don't have that expertice.
There is and has been for some time a belief the domestic market in the UK is going to take off ....wooosh! :p But I've been watching this baby for 20 yrs now and there isn't any sign of it yet.:D
However, If you're market place is becoming saturated with other boiler products and you have the facility to mass produce white goods then surely making something else, like a/c kit is easy, problem is who will put it in and where .... well they'll use the existing trades like plumbers.
Air con in this country is likely to go down the route that central heating went, once it was specialised now any monkey can fit it.
Split ac systems have always been easy to instal, just that the other trades are now realising this, so if the manufacturers starts to take up the commissioning and warranty then they only need monkeys to do the instals :(
I was so happy to see the "f" gas regs come along as it will certainly hold off a lot of plumbers and builders from doing our work.
Maybe it's time to diversify ... ?
The question is do you really want to do domestic installs??
Mini splits may not be technically challenging but the customer won't accept pipes being visible in their livingroom.. any pumps must be silent... they don't want to see a big box hanging on the wall and you cant leave a condenser where little Tiffany can poke sticks in.. then there is the issue of dirty boots and beige carpets.. avoiding damage to the mong vase, stepping down from your steps and treading on the dog and the whinging about you turning off the power in the middle of Tricia....You can't swear, smoke, and must be friendly and polite at all times..
Any holes or damage must be made good and anything visible must be neat and tidy, dust must be vacuumed up, dirty marks must be wiped down... How many industrial ac guys will put up with all that?
Next to the correct installation of a heating system, a mini split is a dream in terms of regulations...
OK Karl, hit a nerve have we :D;);)
:p:p:pBoo Har Sucks:p:p:p
My point was most refrigeration and aircon guys wouldn't even want to fit a split to a private house if they knew what a pain in the butt home owners are.. The trick to working in someones home is to offer the full package which means being an aircon guy, plumber, sparks, plasterer, painter and house maid... There are plenty of site plumbers who are used to fitting heating in new builds but when asked to fit heating to an existing home, just couldn't cut it when it comes to refitting flooring, relaying carpets, bricking old flue holes.... It is a totally different type of work.
I almost accepted an offer to subcontract for a company a few months ago until I met their professional engineers at a training course.... They were just too good for me.;)
I can see your point but, why is it a problem to be tidy?
I accept your arguement that in domsetic situations you need to be more careful of the fittings etc ...whereas in an office they're not too bothered about potential damage risk.
However, what's so hard about making an effort to give the customer the final finishing touch ..better to be remembered for the quality finish than the mess?
I can hear it now "bloody tradesmen never tidy up ... those Polish guys were neat":D
No problem at all.. I always make sure that I always leave the place spotless ... This is the point. There are plenty of guys who bemoan the installation of minisplits by guys who are not fully time served refrigeration or aircon engineers.. but my question that I ask is, would those same guys be content with dealing with home owners?
Home installations are the kind of job that you would expect a tradesman to do for a tradesmans rate, not an engineer.. they are simple nut on bolt jobs and given a few specialist tools and instruction, is the kind of job that most guys could do... Sadly there is still a special breed of numpty who can still muck it up
I believe that for every kind of air conditioning job, there is a particular kind of engineer, mainly because they have decided to specialise in that particular job. There are guys who can work on large constructions with their eyes shut who would be lost on a car. Similarly I have referred some larger jobs to those who have more ability in that particular field.
In domestics, there is less emphasis on technical work and more on aesthetics.. making good, hiding pipes, triming round units, cutting and making good window ledges and skirting can take just as long as installation and testing
Why is there always this attitude to other tradesmen fitting split ac systems, surely if the guys are there installing boiler systems or solar systems or whatever, they should be more than capable of fitting the AC. How many split bashers do you know who can fit boilers?
Yes why on earth should tradesmen worry that others might want to steal their livelihood?
Boiler fitting is the same -monkey see monkey do, the only thing they did right was to get it regulated by Corgi (soon to be replaced..)
I like the idea of the manufacturer doing warranty work..it might open their eyes to the standard of fit..
Of course if Vaillant AC 'take off' they won't be able to cope, then the will have to sub it out, then they will just answer the phone..
Multisync
London
No.
But that is the point, isn't it...
The problem is that pulling the pipes and connecting the cables can be done by anyone. But what happens next?
-Will the system be correctly commissioned, with pressure test and deep, standing, vacuum?
-When things go tits up, who will sort it out and who will have to pay?
-What will happen to the reputation of our industry?
I can understand that in order for a "new" importer of Chinese units, you will have to look at alternative routes of delivery to the endusers, as us "established" engineers tend to stick with the old established brands.
We all takes shortcuts from time to time BUT it is important that we recognise when we take those shortcuts and not in our minds think that they are the main (best?) route.
Good luck.
:cool:
So are you telling me that refrigeration engineers don't do plumbing? I only asked why our industry is so pig headed when it comes to "other" trades diversifying. It is probably harder to qualify to be an electrician or plumber than it is to become an AC engineer.
Anyway wasn't this topic about any questions on Vaillant air conditioning?
Eggs, is this the question you are referring to:
In which case they have answered it.
One of Vaillant's technicians will attend site and sort all problems out (during the warranty period one assumes).
Prince,
The thread are still about your company's products and philosophies...
As it looks from the replies you and your colleague has posted in this thread (on a forum for professional A/C and refrigeration engineers, one might add) the company you are representing seems to think that "our" trade is unnecessary.
As we are highly trained professionals, we will get upset when someone thinks that it is OK to cut us out.
Most of us will also have seen the results of fitters trying to do our job.
Prince and Jay,
All the best in pushing your units. (But you might get better responses on a Boiler/Plumbing/Fitters board)
Remember, don't start discussions if you don't want to have a discussion where views other than your own creeps up...
Peace an love everybody.
:cool:
Class Mr Viking Sir! :D
Lets get something straight here ..... We talk about Electricians, Plumbers, Air conditioning "engineers" . I'm not happy calling an Air con instal guy an engineer unless he his one in which case he'll know his stuff, Psychrometry, Laws of thermo dynamics, Fan laws, principles of the refrigeration cycle, Thermodynamics of buildings, electrical know how and principles of fluid engineering such as "plumbing" etc.
Electricians, be they an installing electrician or a maintenance electrician, seems "electrician" is a catch all name but really hides their incompetence when it comes to diversity, and the same applies to Mr. Plumber, aren't so overly educated (there are exceptions of course) and there is nothing difficult about their job as a whole. So, my view is these two trades are so wholy over rated when it comes to their technical ability it often makes me laugh.
Of all the refrigeration and Air con guys I know I'll bet my last months wages they have all at some time had to help the sparky or the Plumber out because there was a lack of technical knowhow. You will find hard push to come across an Electrician or Plumber who could multi task like an Air Con Engineer.
Exactly as you say, we can do their job in many cases but they don't have the technical knowledge to do ours.
Sparkies have to do the IEE regs ..so what I've got 16th edition piece of p*ss.
One exception ...industrial maintenance electricians are good at having alround knowlwedge.
I think I'm getting to over worked on this issue ... Electricians usually make very good refrigeration /Air con engineers. Plumbers? don't really know what they're good for ..charging too much perhaps.
I am by no means afraid of any critisism if i was i would not have started this thread now would i?
I will say one more thing though, yes there are horses for courses, but is it not called Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning in the rest of the world?
Now refrigeration is a totally different kettle of fish, i would in no way whatsoever insult a refrigeration engineer by calling them an air conditioning engineer! LOL
Anyway by the looks of things at least the summer is finally here eh!
Well you've just insulted us all then .... :(:mad:
It used to be one would progress from Refrigeration to air con because the air con was a speciality as it involves more technical issues and a greater engineering diversity than refrigeration, however today air con generally is thought to mean splits which aren't really very technical in their application.
...so, I would be carefull when you make such statements as you show your ingnorance and that could be embarrasing for you. :eek:
As we now know.:rolleyes:
ya boo:cool:
All of which is very important when considering the install of a 2.5KW minisplit to Mrs Jones bedroom ;)
As for your 16th... you're out of date :p
I wish that I could pigeonhole myself as easily as you.. Sometimes I'm a Sparks, sometimes I'm a gas fitter, other days I'm an aircon engineer.. fancy a drive out?, I'm a Truck driver, gimme a work shop and I'm a pattern maker... then I'll make the tooling and the reinforced plastics engineer will produce you as many plastic mouldings as you wish...Is there any point to this? Not really but I find you elitist attitude quite amusing but a little sad... Get a life, man :cool:
Sorry Karl I wasn't trying to be elitist but more to defend the Ac professional... perhaps you lost the thread.:cool:
I know 17th edition current but not everyone has yet had the chance to get up to speed with it ...just like "f" gas requirement .. you might be C&G 28** compliant but you haven't got the current qualification (f Gas)...so in that respect you're out of date also.;)
As I said, I wasn't trying to do anything other than defend our position, there was no intention of having a dig at you .. I was responding to "Prince Vaillant" who seems to think that all of you "AC Engineers" can be outdone by a 5 day training exercise given to Plumbers who then are competent enough to do your job!
Do you believe this can be so? Are you agreeing to this view? Are you admitting your job ( I assume you're an ac engineer) is so easy that a 5 day course can convert a plumber to an AC Engineer? I really don't think you do, some how.
Elitist? think again, I don't bury my head in the sand ...the writing is there for all to see.
Vaillant and Ariston and the other boiler manufacturers see the UK split ac market as their next target. They have realised as the far East manufacturers did a long time back, that if they make their kit well enough and able to be installed by monkeys then monkeys will install it.
Vaillant have offered to do the vac and pressure testing and also take up the whole warranty on their kit. They don't need any one with any amount of expertise to do the install.
A friend of mine is a combi boiler service agent and he has done the Vaillant course, he now tells me my job is a piece of p*ss! But for the cost of the vac pump, gauges and essentially having to do the gas handling certificate as well etc. he would be willing to do ac installs for Vaillant! So. a saving grace for us is the fact that outsiders will not want to do the gas handling ticket ...oops sorry am I becoming elitist here? :eek:
Fact, if any self respecting Air Con Engineer worth his salt realises that domestic work is not viable then it will not be a problem for him because he will have the technical ability to diversify to something else.
Which was my point, an air con engineer can do. An air con installer can only install ac.
I use an air con "engineer" as a subby I value his expertise, but was suprised to find out that he doesn't know the basic principles of the refrigeration cycle! Never the less I value his pidgeon holed knowledge and in many respects his speciality is valuable but, he hasn't moved his knowledge level to allow him to diversify when the inevitable invasion of monkey AC installers flood the teritory. oops am i being elitist again? :rolleyes:
Any way ... be warned.
Stay cool and don't worry all is well! ;)
Oh yes ...drive out? ask and I will be only too happy to ... so long as you're willing to reciprocate.:cool:
Hi Viking,
We sell our equipment through reputable refrigeration and air conditioning wholesalers.
We could have taken the easy route and sell through the plumbers merchants which already know the Vaillant name for quality, reliabilty and great after sales service.
Having read all the above comments.
Has anyone actually used Vaillant.
I can honestly say there are no technical issues of any kind on the Vaillant equipment.
To my knowledge I am the only Vaillant employee on this forum.
I have been in this industry for 22 years firstly with refrigeration and then onto Air conditioning as a service engineer for most of it.
Regards
Jay.
Hi jay
We have installed about 15 systems over the last 18 months and not a single problem, the kit is good and at a fair price. The last one we installed appeared to have the same louvre motor mechanism and indoor pcb as a mitsi m series which i had to strip down the day before surely ac manufacturers share parts same as the automotive industry.
Anyway it was nice to see that PRINCE VAILLANT finally woke up when jay had provided all the info.
And finally don,t be afraid to install Vaillant we offer it as a mitsi alternative, you wont be disapointed.
The End
PP
Hello Prince.
Soon I want to install air cond / heat pump cooling and heating into my house. I have seen other manufacturers offer a system that uses the discharge to heat a cylinder of water before it is diverted to the condenser.
Do you offer a model that is able to heat water as well.
Cheers taz.
Ps do you have a catalog that I can look through.
Cheers taz.
VAILLANT V10-025 NW CLIMAVAIR PERFORMANCE 2.5KW INVERTER WALL
google it
Hi nevgee
I posted a design problem a while back http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...72&postcount=1
Do you think any 'split installers' could provide a solution. There are A/C Engineers and then again there are 'A/C Engineers' :D
For information, I solved the problem and the new system is working fine.
Hi All,
The V10-025NW is an inverter wall mount.
The Air to water system will be available later in the year, it is right now going through rigorous tests in Germany I will keep you updated when its launched.
Regards
Jay
Frank.
Looks like a teaser ... I,m going to think it over.
You did mention positive pressure in the rooms, I would have thought -tve would be the norm to create a cascade system with areas of contamination risk. However, the input and extract rates suggest a -tve pressure would be there as a greater flow will travel out thru the fume cupboards.
As recirc is not permitted, and I haven't though about the size of load in the areas yet, did you consider using dole plates or gravity coils ?
NO!
You started it, then went to sleep and Jay had to finnish it to save vaillants blushes, if you decide to take it on your shoulders to represent a company you should be answerable for your actions and know the product inside out, which you know & I know you don't.
As I said THE END
Before you infract me frank please read all the posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards to you all. ( no hard feelings I hope prince )
PP
Hi Prince Vallient and Vallient Jay,
I was wondering as i am want to do on occasion, do these Vallient units have Lp and Hp switches fitted?
With regards to the wonderful warranty that you offer, i presume that you won't be fixing faults that are due to poor installation practice and the like, for free and would be invoicing the installer should such be found to be the case?
Does anybody else think that the Vallient logo looks a bit like the rabbit from donny darko? (not that i have seen donny darko, just seen the rabbit somewhere)
Cheers Jon