has anybody been using the CARE range of refrigerants? We have just installed 8 units which are going to run on CARE 40. Just wondered if anybody has some detailed info on the products apart from the BOC site.
Thanks in advance
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has anybody been using the CARE range of refrigerants? We have just installed 8 units which are going to run on CARE 40. Just wondered if anybody has some detailed info on the products apart from the BOC site.
Thanks in advance
Dixon,
As you have posted this in the a/c section i am assuming it is an a/c install. Can you give some info on the units as i really !!!! DO NOT like the sound of care in a/c applications
Regards
Fatboy
We have installed standard split R407c wall mounts on a subcontract basis for a company who are going to do the commissioning using the CARE range of refrigerants. I personally haven't used them yet and just wanted some feedback from any members who have. I've been on the BOC site and I'm hoping to go on their training course in March, just wanted some ideas beforehand regarding running pressures, de-canting, re-charging procedures, basically any potential problems that may arise etc.
cheers in advance
I dot understand, why are you or anybody else changing original R407 already contained in unit with Care refrigerant? Am I missing something said before?
Glad its not just me loosing the plot on this thread :confused:
Why anyone would put care in an a/c system thats inside a building and the amount needed would surely cause as safty issue is there was a fire
I cannot see any reason to replace the original 407
Regards
Fatboy
I all ways find the fire excuse a rather limp explination, as the oil is just as flammible, at least with Care I do not need an SCBA or a gas mask to survive the pipe rupture!
When we factor in the fact the oil is flammible and the decompisition components toxicity Care is in reality the safer choice providing the laws are not as illogical as they are here!
I think it is a good choice given the more faverable pressurs the HC refrigerants run at and their environmental safety as well!
At least in my own personal opinion of the matter all in all.
If you read BS EN 378, it states "Hydrocarbons will not be permitted for air conditioning and heating for human comfort".
Ref: BS EN 378-1/2000 Annexe C paragraph C.2.3.1
Hi, all :)
As always on the paper you can write down very positive things....practice is usually a little bit different.....why....who knows:confused: seems profit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
Best regards, Josip :)
I'm not sure why they are replacing the R407c with CARE refrigerant. We were asked to de-cant the systems and install as normal and commissioning would be done by them, which we've done. I'm a little in the dark to be honest as I've not used CARE before and need to get my brain around it's benefits etc hence the planned training course in March. Just after some knowledge not a lecture!
Dixon,
Please dont take any reply personally, we would never try to lecture on a subject (Unless you ask us to). It is just that you have asked a question that we didnt expect to ever get, saying that it has opened the debate about Care again which is always a good thing
Regards
Fatboy
No problem, I don't take anything to heart!! I'm really interested in the CARE range and obviously as we've installed the systems minus refrigerant I think I have some responsibilty to find out about the gas going in them. As I've said (pre-lecture!!!) my knowledge is virtually zero apart from reading the BOC site and I thought this forum would be a good way of attaining info from people with experience using CARE be it good or bad.
Also I mentioned I am hoping to go on the BOC HC course in March, has anyone attended? Is it worth the outlay or are there better companies that do a similar course? I definatley want to get into this product as I have been asked about it a few times and need to have the knowledge to provide the correct service!
Any advice warmly received, good or bad
Dixon,
From what i hear, the care course is very basic and only covers the obvious things relating to it (Braising etc)
You will probably have to do this to get youre ticket but dont expect much else. Try and found out from the people who do the course whats covered and hopefully someone will make a suggestion about a more in depth one afterwards
Regards
Fatboy
Well I've used R-290 in a couple of systems that where origionaly R-22 and I must say I love it, they run lower heads and produce a good amount of cooling and oil carry is excellent!
Albiet keep in mind these systems where 6,000BTU units that I was working with.
How ever thicker oil is needed due to just how well they mix with the oil and a crank case heater even in warm ambient would be a good idea to keep it out of the oil.
Re Hydrocarbons, so how has Delonghi managed to bring an R290 system to market then, DIYable at that:
http://www.shop.delonghi.uk.com/acat...tioner_10.html
Jimbo,
good question. Probably a bit like when B&Q started to sell A/C systems to the public for self install.
You will notice in BS EN 378 that it prohibits HCs in A/C for human comfort cooling and heating.
So it does not prohibit its use altogether.
Hi Tony
Presumably they've found away around that reg, in order to get it CE marked. Is there a de-minimus exclusion, less than 500g or something?
Obvious not for comfort but there are plenty of freezers using it in small quanitites.
I have already attended the care course as I previously posted, there are already some a/c out there working on care, care 290 uses a smaller compressor than its traditional counterparts on R22/ R407c etc, care does not have a stenching agent and is heavier than air so you will not smell it if it leaks and it will obviously float down to ground level, it is not as scary or inflammable as I first thought it was, you can even unsweat pipes with a little positive pressure in the system apparently, I havent done that though, it is obviously going to be used more in refrigeration as well as air conditioning, Foster and Williams for example already have equipment out in the field with R290 in them.
Yeah, And what a pain in the #### they turned out to be. Seemt to everytime you have a blocked condenser it always blows the compressor as well :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy W
Most that i see now have been replaced with 134/404
Regards
Fatboy
Now that is interesting, I made some remarks about compressors going down after a blocked condenser and was looked at as if I had 2 heads and was told "first we have heard about it".Quote:
Originally Posted by rdocwra
Like i mentioned earlier the cc's of the compressors are smaller for R290 but bigger for R600 so not sure if the compressor is big enough if retrofitted to R404a or if a larger compressor is fitted anyway.
blocked condenser = knakered compressor every single time unless a hp switch is fitted !! not just on ac units but every single variation of the basic refrigeration system ! R290 is green efficient and safe as long as its not a monkey doing the install / service etc. To date over 50 million domestic refrigerators have been produced in europe using hc'c with to my knowledge no issues at all ! You would only be able to use R290 in small systems as the maximum charge is 1.5l ! hawco refrigeration supply intrinsicly safe HC recovery units
I deal in a lot of r22 refrigeration, a lot of the time a blocked condenser or faulty fan motor means the death of the compressor soon after too.
As far as r290 in a/cs, I thought there was a limit to the total charge, ie the average a/c needs to much to be legal, secondly not advisable for split system a/c, ie no ventilation. Both put together means low ignition temp (unlike oil) and the possiblity of a few kgs of flammable gas in an unventilated space. For results, look up that video from the wack job trying to tell everyone that flammable refrigerants were a good idea in cars.
For the people who don't get it, oil flammable, petrol flammable, both undesirable. A flammable gas spread in ductwork or collecting around a indoor split with a lower ignition temperature and easier to ignite does not compare to oil or petrol.
I have a system running with R290 at the moment. The operating pressures/ temperatures are very comparable to R407C except no glide. Slightly lower performance except greater SEER.
Electrical issues were a concern for me but overcomed that using an external remote control panel. The whole unit is in open air.
With HC refrigerants be very vigilent with the stuff and respect it. Although R717 is probally worse as you can suffocate just breatheing the stuff. One of the guys on this site stated that its the perception of danger not the actual danger
When doing any modifications to systems. recover, evacuate and even tripple evacuate prior to brazing.
Remember the combustion triangle and the combustion regions. My old boss used to use town gas in the past for purging instead of nitrogen. This was at 100% so could not explode; however i would not like to do it
One note make sure you recover to a HC recovery cylinder and also that compressors are fully labelled. You don't want someone coming along with a angle grinder such as in a warranty claim. unexpected boom may occur.
HC use is a bit of a revamped thing, it was used years ago when people used really nasty refrigerants that were the norm.
Go on the BOC training course. its good (best course i have been on in years)
Chat to other guys who are in the same mindset as you.
You will be surprised.
Yorkie
"We have installed standard split R407c wall mounts on a subcontract basis for a company who are going to do the commissioning using the CARE range of refrigerants." - Dixon
Well, apart from which gas is better, there is also a small matter as to whether the equipment manufacturer is happy about the change of gas from R407c to Care-40. And decanting the gas is one thing but is the oil compatible, or does the oil need changing/clean out too? Will the manufacturer still support their warranty after the gas change or consider it invalidated? Are you (Dixon) or the Care-40 commissioning team going to take on the equipment warranty in lieu? Or does the customer realise there is no warranty on these altered systems?
Might be worth a few phone calls/letters before letting things go forward.
Did the hc course a few years ago and was then told we could vent gas if outside and this was preferable. Solid state relays etc to be used for obvious reasons. Was a problem with the amount of gas used if passing through internal rooms. There was a percentage allowed for room size and amount of gas in system (in case of leaks). On a personal note found hc's ok but liable to blockages. Always purge with ofn before brazing, and no surprises. Doesn't pull up trees but gets there, cheers.
Picked this one up a bit late. However, what make of units are they? The only make I know that offer a model suitable for HC's (Care 50) is Marstair. The systems are modified versions of their standard R407c models. As Viking said special relays etc must be used so unless the systems have be made especially for use with Care it is unlikely that they will be street legal.
I would encourage the original poster to attend the BOC Care course. Not only to understand more about the products, their safe handling and application, but to meet with other engineers and to talk to the expert trainers. No extra charges for asking as many questions as you wish.
Details on the bocindustrial.co.uk website under technical library/ technical training, or call the refrigerants sales office on 0800 020800.