Help Please: R-12 or R-22

Hi,

I have received conflicting information by two local
refrigerator repair shops. I have a very old Philco refrigerator probably made
around 1950. It still works fine but is a low on ***** and needs some added.

One repair shop said R-12 is what it needs, the other shop said
R-22 is what it needs. I don't know who to believe?

I just finished looking around the compressor and
found one tag which gives the model/serial #, but doesn't
say anything about ***** type.

Philco Corp.
Serial # 3091293
Model: MRG


Thanks!

If its made in the 1950s it will definately of had R-12 in it originally and if that company can provide you with some then get it.

Hi philco,

firstly if you need to put ga in its not working ok and secondly R12 is outlawed has been for a while. as for using R22 i wouldnt suggest you do that as it likley to damage the compressor. if you need to recharge the gas you should be using a drop-in like r49L.
which is there to replace R12.

Just because its outlawed doesnt mean that they wont sell it to you. Most companies have some in reserve and dont mind getting rid of it for a price. R12 was the best refrigerant ever made and if you can get some more from them (illegaly or not) id say go for it.

Hi Jimmy:)
R12 is banned for a reason, it eats holes in the ozone layer:(

Don't use R12;) it's just not a good idea. Knowingly damaging the enviroment is just not on:( :(

Kind Regards Andy:)

Hi Philco

Its definitely R12 coz date of production says so. Few of RE members already advice so. If you think you have all the money in this world,by all means replace the machine. If you agree with some RE members and the unit could still be operated for the next couple of years then have it fix. Its your decision, don't let others influence you.

Good day ol chump :) :)

Why do we assume because R12 is used by some people out there it will be leaked into the atmosphere. Gone are the days when we used to clean off with it and its use in airosols cans. When used in a sealed system and using the correct process, and then recovered and disposed of correctly, I see the risk to the enviroment as minimum than comparaed to the amount of jet planes pumping out gases.

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Originally Posted by Mickvee

Why do we assume because R12 is used by some people out there it will be leaked into the atmosphere. Gone are the days when we used to clean off with it and its use in airosols cans. When used in a sealed system and using the correct process, and then recovered and disposed of correctly, I see the risk to the enviroment as minimum than comparaed to the amount of jet planes pumping out gases.

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Yes but you are still obliged (legally) not to use it and to decant when you come accross it so that it does not end up in the atmosphere:)

Laws are made to be broken:D

but why cause yourself and your employer the hassle. Just don't work on R12 systems:)

Kind Regards Andy:)

I agree with your statment, but is it the refrigerant which is the problem or the way it was handled and used in the past.:confused: I believe all refrigerants should be handled as if thay were Ozone harming.

I think everyone who is a registered member need to look deeper into the proof that R12 is an ozone harming subtstance. I have heard other theories as to why it was outlawed and the scientists who came out with the research. Ill look up some sites and post it for you guys :D

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Originally Posted by Andy

Yes but you are still obliged (legally) not to use it and to decant when you come accross it so that it does not end up in the atmosphere:)

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The laws in the USA say "No manufacture and importation of R-12" but still allowed the use of R-12 that is reclaimed or in existing inventory.

Reclaimed R-12 is still sold quite openly here. For example:
http://www.r-12.com/
but because there is a limited inventory, it is best to reclaim what you have. Prices from this place for R-12 are US$477 per 30 lbs. cylinder:
http://www.koolit.net/prices.htm

Jimmy quite frankly you sound delusional. R-12 is quite damaging to the ozone you can test this by making some simple equipment at home, we have seen what it amongst other stuff can do, there is no doubt as to the damage it does to any one whom passed chemistry in grade 11, providing they actually understood what was taught in class.

Personally I am going to design all my personal equipment to run off R-290 and minimize my usage of R-134a and all other such artificial refrigerants.

50 years old? I would personally recommend it is seriously time to get a new one for power efficiency reasons alone letting go of the fact it is leaking gas!

Here Here!

You clearly have no understanding of the trade, or climate change, if you believe that you can retrofit a system from R12 to R22. I could go on about idiocy regarding the age of your equipment, but, clearly it's a lost cause!!

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Originally Posted by Brian

Here Here!

You clearly have no understanding of the trade, or climate change,

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< That would be Jimmy

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if you believe that you can retrofit a system from R12 to R22. I could go on about idiocy regarding the age of your equipment, but, clearly it's a lost cause!!

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that would be the original poster whom was asking about which was correct and never claimed to know about the industry. Yes that fridge is indeed a lost cause retire it with respect and get a new modern fridge which will most likely out perform the old one by both performance and power usage.

Question..Is all these so called ozone harming things being band in all countries or just in the USA..like we can control the universe from the USA????

I mean..I bought a tank of 134 a couple of years ago for 50 bucks....what politican said to raise it to 300 bucks

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I have a very old Philco refrigerator probably made
around 1950. It still works fine but is a low on ***** and needs some added.

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I would want to keep that bit of history working. :) More than likely, an R12 replacement refrigerant would work here, but I wouldn't shy away from using R12. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the states we are not requiring that you put catylitic converters on 1957 Chevrolets. Same logic should apply to the Philco. It is a classic and deserves preservation in its natural state.

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R-12 is quite damaging to the ozone you can test this by making some simple equipment at home

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MGPony, please share this with us. I never heard of this.

High electric arc discharge to generate ozone, broad spectrum UV generating light, Chlorine detector, and some R-12.

Set up chamber to hold low pressure air with Ozone and expose to UV, check chlorine & Ozone levels, intro duce R-12 let sit, recheck the levels, you'll find more chlorine and less Ozone, now this disregards allot of the more complex issues but gives a rather direct conclusion.

or if you don't have the stuff to do the actual tests, make up the system let run for a day and take a gass sample, then introduce the r-12 let site for a day or more then take another sample and bring it to a university and get a student to check it for you.

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Originally Posted by The MG Pony

R-12 is quite damaging to the ozone you can test this by making some simple equipment at home, we have seen what it amongst other stuff can do, there is no doubt as to the damage it does to any one whom passed chemistry in grade 11, providing they actually understood what was taught in class.

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If you believe everything you hear you take the chance of falling into the hysteria. I won't argue with the chemistry class stuff you describe as frankly I'm not a chemist, or a fortune teller.

I will say that only observing one viewpoint is dangerous and tantamount to saying the sky is falling. Why??? Because someone told me it was. Oh my gosh, we have to save the poor birds. They will be crushed.

All of this global warming crap is being used to substantiate all sorts of junk science.

Here are some interesting points from the other side of the argument.

http://www.iceagenow.com/Kyoto_Pointless.htm

http://www.iceagenow.com/Global_Warming_is_a_Hoax.htm

http://www.iceagenow.com/Gore's_Pathetic_Arguments.htm

http://www.iceagenow.com/Ocean_Warming.htm

http://www.iceagenow.com/Ding_Dong.htm

http://www.iceagenow.com/Poppy****.htm

http://www.iceagenow.com/Another_Mini_Ice_Age.htm

The author Michael Crichton published a book titled " State of Fear" in the recent past. While it is a work of fiction the science involved is based on real data, NOT the fiction reported on TV by so-called journalists.

What sells newspapers? A horrific story about Armageddon or a good story on something else that has positive impact.

When someone yells run... Do you follow the crowd or ask what for?

I'm not saying we shouldn't be using responsible care with refrigerant use or allow venting of refrigerant to the atmosphere.

The ecosystems, environment, and weather have to be the least understood mechanisms on earth. Yet we freely believe anything we hear.

How often is the weatherman right for next months forecast? Now I'm supposed to believe the world is ending? I don't think so.

Here are some more interesting ideas:

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They emphasised that the study of global climate change is, in Mr Harper's own words, an "emerging science" and added: "If, back in the mid 1990s, we knew what we know today about climate, Kyoto would almost certainly not exist, because we would have concluded it was not necessary." Despite claims to the contrary, there is no consensus among climate scientists on the relative importance of the various causes of global climate change, they wrote.

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Read the whole story at this site:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...9/ixworld.html

And another:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/...ge/1023334.stm

and another:
http://www.cato.org/dailys/9-15-97.html

and one more:
http://www.visitandlearn.co.uk/factfiles/global7.asp

Lot's of information to read before we get too excited.

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High electric arc discharge to generate ozone, broad spectrum UV generating light, Chlorine detector, and some R-12.

Set up chamber to hold low pressure air with Ozone and expose to UV, check chlorine & Ozone levels, intro duce R-12 let sit, recheck the levels, you'll find more chlorine and less Ozone, now this disregards allot of the more complex issues but gives a rather direct conclusion.

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Interesting, MG. Not something I would classify as a home project, however. Perhaps a good school project, though.

What would happen if I just placed a dish of chlorine in the chamber?

it would probably go Diatomic then go to chlorine Monoxide taking the one Oxygen radical and then in UV release it to repeat and the now free O1 Radical will go diatomic to the other one (Chlorine is a catalyst, R-12 just manages to bring it to the stratosphere and up)

The R-12 Vs Ozone has nothing to do with global Warming FYI it has to do with your skin being cooked within minutes of being in the sun rather then hours.

It is all so dangerous not fully informing ones self with the science behind it ;)

I started out with electronics, played with chemistry as a hobby, and then started to move into this industry having such a varied diet helps significantly with the understanding of how all this stuff inter relates. We could probably do better then what Kyoto has in it any ways.

To sum up Chlorine is a reducing agent for the Ozone to Oxidize thus destroying the Ozone molecule, and R-12 decomposes releasing chlorine when exposed to UV light, doesn't matter how it (The chlorine) gets up there once there it rips it (Ozone) apart and keeps doing it till natural events scrub it (chlorine) out of the Atmosphere

The effects of reduced Ozone is higher saturation of the surface in UV energy, which causes you to burn and increases the risk of cancer in the skin by magnitudes as it heavily damages DNA, Ozone filters out most of the UV more importantly it totally blocks the most dangerous wave lengths of it. Global warming is a totally different thing from this subject.

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The R-12 Vs Ozone has nothing to do with global Warming

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ahh, but then why do the refrigerants have GWP (global warming potential) values assigned to them?

Unless they are supposed to be interconnected. Then again, they may not be.

Here is an interesting link:
http://www.ecocentre.org.uk/global-warming.html

Because refrigerants all so add to that, but we where not discussing that part, we where discussing R-12 and the effect it had on the ozone (Or at least I thought that was the subject?)

Ozone depletion is caused by how readily the substance will release chlorine under UV exposure, R-12 readily releases it, where as R-22 will not so readily break up, yet both will contribute to the total warming capacity of the atmosphere.

I'm not arguing with you about the effects on the ozone layer or that R-12 is or is not the cause. I'm simply saying there can be many factors that affect this.

The ozone layer problems and global warming have been been joined as somewhat of a common cause and the Kyoto Protocol was the result.

As to what causes global warming I also think the subject is a lot more complex than simply banning some refrigerants.

No doubt this will contribute to the correction as you pointed out with the science project.

One of the other posters asked a legitimate question about the cause and effect of this and was summarily jumped on. So, I'm merely saying that we should review a lot of material and come to our own conclusions rather than repeating what some might say is the gospel truth.

I think this subject is more grey, rather than black or white.

Exactly, thats what I have don, took me years of constant reading and looking to form my own opinion, and based on the evidence we do need to cut down on the pollution we generate and stop production of any ozone depleting stuff, and switch to R-290, the dam stuff is good for nearly every application in existence lol I love it, and it gets good n cool.

As for what effect global warming, no one knows for sure, some places that used to be hot may get cold where as cool places get hot, or the whole world may become a giant 24/7 hurricane, but the fact is we are causing every thing to heat up with the insurmountable amount of gases we are releasing.

So right now all we can hope for is every one to wake up and smell the CO2 and do some thing to fix it. I've don my part, I reduced my total power usage to 31KW/h per every 2 months, and use only R-290, R-600 in all my personal projects.