Refr. engineers responsible for most of the leakages?

The REAL Zero project (Refrigerant Emissions And Leakage Zero) commenced mid-2008. Its aims included increasing levels of awareness and understanding of the financial and environmental impact of refrigerant leakage, encouraging debate about how emissions could be reduced and providing information, tools and skills training to help the RAC industry to take practical steps to reduce refrigerant leakage rates.
The project included 81 case studies (system site surveys), undertaken by RAC professionals with many years experience of system design, installation and maintenance, using a methodology that was developed for the project.[...]
96 refrigerant leaks were detected during the site surveys. Many systems were found to be short of refrigerant at the time of the inspection and potential leakage points such as Schrader and service valves were not always capped. In many instances the approach to service and maintenance appeared to be reactive (responding to faults that had already occurred) rather than proactive and there was often no evidence of regular leak testing being performed. Another issue was that many leak detectors had not been verified or calibrated on a regular basis, resulting in the possibility of incorrect operation when performing leak tests.

All credits given to:
F GAS CONTAINMENT – TWO UK LED PROJECTS ON REDUCING REFRIGERANT EMISSIONS AND LEAKAGE
D. COWAN(a) (b), I. CHAER(b), G. MAIDMENT(b)
* (a) Institute of Refrigeration, Kelvin House, 76 Mill Lane, Carshalton, Surrey, SM5 2JR, U.K.
Fax : +44 (0) 20 8773 0165, email : david at ior.org.uk.
(b) London South Bank University, London, U.K.

Foor for thoughts.

At the end of the day it reverts back to the GOLDEN RULE - the man with the gold makes the rules. So put regulation on the customer and fine the customer if there is excessive leakage. This is the only way for a positive result. Just follow the money? Who profits from leakage (not fixing leaks) the customer! We (fridgies) know the consequences and generally do not profit from refrigerant leaks._

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Originally Posted by Tesla

Who profits from leakage (not fixing leaks) the customer! We (fridgies) know the consequences and generally do not profit from refrigerant leaks._

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I think it's pretty much the other way around.
Fridgies are the only speculating on high prices of refrigerants and the customers are passive victims of unfixed leakages.

I think this issue is somewhat more complicated. Is the client willing to pay for skilled engineers at a true labour cost (as most labour charge out rates as less than the true cost) Are the clients willing to have their equipment off long enough to allow the engineers to complete a thorough test. Generally no, so the contracting company sends less skilled engineers who are cheaper to employ. If a system has a slow leak, then this is good for the contractor, as is gives extra turnover and hopefully profit.
Then you have the upkeep of leak detection equipment, we all know how troublesome electronic leak detectors can be.
And then you have the times you have done a 18hr day, you can not find a pissa, so recharge, with all the best intention to go back, and never do.

No one wants to think they are part of the problem, me included :D
Customers get the systems and 'engineers' they are prepaired to pay for. Show me a system that didn't have to be the cheapest quote, just had to do the job of cooling or heating well, efficiently and reliably, that is maintained properly and i'll show you one that has few if any running problems including leaks.

Correct me if I'm wrong but european regulations do not condone leakages from systems that have been produced, assembled or maintained with budget in mind. It's still something pertaining to REs, as there are a number of us who do not stick to minimum fares, especially in hardship times like these.

Nobody takes responsibility for them selves, the stuff they own, their own lives even.

Customers have free will as to which tradesman or company to employ, they select on issues that are important to themselves and are left with the result.
Tradesmen/companies have a choice which customers the work for and the standards they work to, and equipment they select.
Manufacturers have a choice of what materials they put into their equipment, the R&D that goes into them, and the quality control also.

Put all this together and what do you get?

Customer blames tradesman for poor quality work...

Tradesman blames customer for beating price down to it nearly isn't worth bothering with, and the manufacturer for selling poorly made and designed equipment...

Manufacturer blames tradesman for poor install and servicing...

Its always someone elses fault.



As a philosophy in life, i don't like "find the blame and attribute it", I prefer "find the problem and fix it"

Jon :)

Its not "Who to blame"
Of course its us that do all the work and being only humans, we miss a leak or two.

Okö Germany is performing an upgrade of the current F-gas regulation.Each country has to provide information what needs to be more stringent or just the opposite.
France already lowered the 3kg minimum rule to 2 kg and other countries like the UK wants it even to be reduced to 1 kg so that the pre-charged system will fall also within this regulation.
Real zero is impossible otherwise, the gas industry will fall down to a production of also zero at a certain time. They will anyhow try to avoid this.

It's in fact very simple to reduce emissions: add a stinking gas - ethane like they add to natural gas - and you will smell the leak even at very low leakage rates. If one manufacturer will do this and patent it, this will become the only gas that will be allowed to charge systems with.

Reduction to one or two what is the difference Refrigerant is refrigerant - the member states have to police these regulations which in the UK they are not - yes there is a so called registration scheme for a certain few companies who want to do the job the proper way but that is your lot

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Originally Posted by Quality

Reduction to one or two what is the difference Refrigerant is refrigerant - the member states have to police these regulations which in the UK they are not - yes there is a so called registration scheme for a certain few companies who want to do the job the proper way but that is your lot

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This is the problem here in the UK, no one will bother checking up on whether the rules are being followed, people will get jaded and the bodgers will float back up to the top.

In Belgium, they pick out some companies and they control if all the administration is done the way it should be.
They fine you if not OK (I know a company where tech and end-user had to pay each 1.000€ because the logbook wasn't filled up)
If you're sure there's no control, then nobody will follow the rules. If you're sure there's no speed control on the highway, then some will drive like rockets.
And in the case of gases, we're even not sure that the whole hype around ozone and Co2 related also to refrigerant gases is a through story.

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Originally Posted by Peter_1

Okö Germany is performing an upgrade of the current F-gas regulation.Each country has to provide information what needs to be more stringent or just the opposite.
France already lowered the 3kg minimum rule to 2 kg and other countries like the UK wants it even to be reduced to 1 kg so that the pre-charged system will fall also within this regulation.
Real zero is impossible otherwise, the gas industry will fall down to a production of also zero at a certain time. They will anyhow try to avoid this.

It's in fact very simple to reduce emissions: add a stinking gas - ethane like they add to natural gas - and you will smell the leak even at very low leakage rates. If one manufacturer will do this and patent it, this will become the only gas that will be allowed to charge systems with.

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supermarket chain waitrose have been doing this for some time now they are adding a chemical to the system that smells like "homebaking" so when it leaks the staff smell this relise its gas and log a call for the contractor, it is going well and i hear they are rolling it out across the chain, they are also trying out new smells, i sugest the smell one produces after a night on the guiness and curry, you sure would not miss that:)

Bit late on this thread but felt I have something to say.
Having

Bit late on this thread.
I'm only just starting out in this line of work. I work for a large company. My problem is I get no support from this company. I am on a static site and am pretty much on my own when it come to refrigeration.
The problem I see is that large maintanance companies look at the new rule bought in and instead of implementing systems so these rules can be easily followed by their engineers. They instead ship their engineers off on courses and shift all the responsibilty onto the engineers, giving little to no support.
Now I'm not suggesting the engineer shouldn't take responsibilty, I am saying we end up fighting the customer and our own company in order to follow the rules.

it smells like bakewells!!:D

Certainly an eye catching thread NoNickName

I think the conclusion could only come from 'Pen Pushers' :eek: and 'data entry clerks' .... not seen this till now & think its a little unfair to say the least

I for one dont cause leaks & can guarantee that... & given the time (as others have said above) they will get a good job done time after time

there are better sealing fittings than shcrieder's for starters(they leak on car tyres for christ sake), so who fitted them, the cheap skates making the profits..... not the engineer .... could rant all night on this one ... What a cheek they have...Huh !!! :(

R's chillerman

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Originally Posted by Peter_1

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It's in fact very simple to reduce emissions: add a stinking gas - ethane like they add to natural gas - and you will smell the leak even at very low leakage rates. If one manufacturer will do this and patent it, this will become the only gas that will be allowed to charge systems with.

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An update to my own post: we have found at least in 3 packs an almost not to find leak due to the add of mercaptane to the system. I bought a bottle of this after this thread and we used it now already +/- 7 times.
Of course, the stinking odor will not prevent a leak in a supermarket but you will be alerted that there's a leak instead of nowadays they call the service engineer only when plenty bottles of refrigerant are escaped and the machines are tripping on LP.

We now

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Originally Posted by Peter_1

you will be alerted that there's a leak instead of nowadays they call the service engineer only when plenty bottles of refrigerant are escaped and the machines are tripping on LP.

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Hi Peter

this is a very good Idea and should be mandatory in all new systems

& a deadline set for current systems to have this added

R's chillerman