Turbocor compressors and chillers

Hi all,

I am a new member. I see occasional threads regarding TURBOCOR oil-free centrifugal compressors and chiller application questions around the technology - and some incorrect or outdated information being shared.

Among other things, I head up Business Development for SMARDT in Montreal, part of the Quantum Group comprised of Smardt, PowerPax in Australia and Axima in Germany. We are by far the worlds largest producer of chillers leveraging the Turbocor compressor with over 1200 chiller installations worldwide. Our CEO was the co-founder and CEO of Turbocor before selling to Danfoss. Our controls were actually developed within Turbocor and are engineered from the ground up to optimize this unique technology. As such we are very closely aligned to Turbocor and are the real experts in chillers that use the compressor. We are also entering into the chiller plant control world where we can optimize the chillers, condenser pumps, chilled water pumps and tower fans based on energy and power relationships using very advanced algorithms.

Point is, I have been involved since 2000 and am pleased to provide a great deal of insight into this technology, I have loads of experience, techinical docs, application guides, case studies and such available for you.

This technology is changing the world of refrigeration. We TRIPPLED in sales last year and will do it again in 2008. Not a simple technology, easy to mis-apply it, but once you have the understanding, it is remarkable and delivers the total lowest cost of ownership of any other compressor.

You can reach me via email at jackson@jacksonball.com, or jackson.ball@smardt.com

or via cell at (678)234-2821.

Cheers to all...

Jackson

Jackson, welcome to the forum and thank you for your introduction.

Having access to the "prime source" is always a bonus and I'm sure that you will receive some interest soon.

I have a question about turbocor compressors. What happens if they suffer a power failure when running, do the magnets demagnify? does that cause problems?

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Originally Posted by Allrounder

I have a question about turbocor compressors. What happens if they suffer a power failure when running, do the magnets demagnify? does that cause problems?

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Thats not a problem, the turbocor units have 4 very large capacitors that maintain the magnetic bearings until the shaft stops rotating. Its then lowered in a controlled way, no big drama.

Hi all, sorry for not getting back last week, ASHRAE rocked! Anyway, I saw that somebody did provide an answer. Here is the rest of the story. Out of over 10,000 compressors there have been ZERO mechanical failure of the magnetic bearing system. Some BMCC boards have died, but no catastrophic failure events. Many layers of safeties to prevent that. On a power outage, the compressor becomes a generator in 0.5ms. The capacitors provide power for a controlled shutdown. The shaft is slowed to a stop and then de-levitated into carbon rest bearings in the 90-ton TT300, and into roller bearings for the 150ton TT400 and 225 ton TT500 compressor. The rest bearings are designed to take some hits from bearings that fail, but these are VERY rare. After coming to a stop, the controls will inquire if power is normalized and if so the compressor will come on line and levitate the shaft. It will then determine if there is a call for cooling and if so the shaft will rotate. Lift is acheived at about 18,000 RPM and full capacity at about 38,000. The compressor can do up to 48K. The capacitors must be replaced every ten years (used to be five) The capacitors are replaced as a bank of four, takes about 20 minutes. The DC bus is right there, so safety is warranted. 1000 VDC will bite hard and not let go. There is a safety wire harness that DTC recommends.

Cheers...
Jackson Ball, Smardt Inc.

By the way... the total cycle time from power loss to re-established lift is a mere 3-5 minutes depending on the speed of the compressor at power loss. This is a big deal because some large systems need 15-20 minutes. There are also some cautions in switching from normal utility power to standby generator power and back. You MUST power down the compressor before switching back to the grid after running on a generator. There is a DTC bulletin attached on this if anyone needs it. Cheers. JB

Can they run low temp (-25 deg c) applications?

No they cant, but it is more a 134a situation which is really good for air conditioning temps, not refrigeration temps. The other issue is that people buy Turbocor for its energy efficiency, low noise, no oil service, no u-value degradation in heat exchangers - hence flooded barrels with 1-2 degree approaches maximize the energy benefits. If you need lower temps, DX is best, but then you sacrifice some of the reason you buy this premium product because DX has a much worse approach - 8-10 degrees. This is energy. Our designs are good for about 35F LWT at great approaches. Also the DTC compressor is not nearly as efficient at lower temps. There is a a retrofit r22 version avaiable, but not on OEM chillers. There is also a rumor of a 407c project that will get us to lower temps.

Jackson

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Originally Posted by JacksonBall

Hi all, sorry for not getting back last week, ASHRAE rocked! Anyway, I saw that somebody did provide an answer. Here is the rest of the story. Out of over 10,000 compressors there have been ZERO mechanical failure of the magnetic bearing system. Some BMCC boards have died, but no catastrophic failure events. Many layers of safeties to prevent that. On a power outage, the compressor becomes a generator in 0.5ms. The capacitors provide power for a controlled shutdown. The shaft is slowed to a stop and then de-levitated into carbon rest bearings in the 90-ton TT300, and into roller bearings for the 150ton TT400 and 225 ton TT500 compressor. The rest bearings are designed to take some hits from bearings that fail, but these are VERY rare. After coming to a stop, the controls will inquire if power is normalized and if so the compressor will come on line and levitate the shaft. It will then determine if there is a call for cooling and if so the shaft will rotate. Lift is acheived at about 18,000 RPM and full capacity at about 38,000. The compressor can do up to 48K. The capacitors must be replaced every ten years (used to be five) The capacitors are replaced as a bank of four, takes about 20 minutes. The DC bus is right there, so safety is warranted. 1000 VDC will bite hard and not let go. There is a safety wire harness that DTC recommends.

Cheers...
Jackson Ball, Smardt Inc.

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Hi Jackson

What about all the early versions of turbocor that were being used in china where power outages are common, the backup system your talking of was not 100% reliable.
Have heard this has now been rectified but still makes you think as these units are not cheap.
Good idea for sure but are they really failsafe now ?
Many compressors went into units I used to work with -climaveneta, but rumours were rife and affected sales.
Also was this not a york compressor sold on to Danfoss ?

Cheers chillerman

You are right. early generation TT300s had more issues, especially with dirty power. There was a rash of soft-start boards and a few BMCC boards that failed. Today we see a few cavity sensors and position sensors failing, but these a very few these days. if the position sensor fails, a replacement compressor is required. The TT300 uses carbon rest bearngs and the TT400 rollers. We see far fewer bearing issues with the TT400.

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Originally Posted by JacksonBall

Today we see a few cavity sensors and position sensors failing, but these a very few these days. if the position sensor fails, a replacement compressor is required.

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Wow !

Thats one expensive positioning sensor :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by chillerman2006

Wow !

Thats one expensive positioning sensor :rolleyes:

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Only if its out of warranty :D

Jackson-
Glad to have you aboard! I work for a company that does start up/warranty work for MultiStack and McQuay, and have had a chance to work on some of the Turbcors.The first time I walked into the mechanical room of one of our accounts where we were to replace one of the compressors, all I could hear was the pumps-with over 500 tons of active cooling operating! MagLev technology is amazing. One question- are there any accepted leak detection agents that we can use to find hard to find leaks?

hello jackson,

what's youre experiance about this:

if there is a ac power failure (or 1 fase failure),en the turbocor is into gererator mode (capacitor) .
when the power is restored ,kan there be a failure somtimes ?,like a bearing problem or volt dc bus ?.
the chiller has 4 compr (1 circuit ) and a very bad ac input power net,somtimes one or two compressor after power loss a failure.

howmany power failure's can the turbocor TT300 have,what is the life off the capacitor's then?.

great peter

Jackson-
Just out doing some maintenance on a Multistack bank today (6 total, 80 tons each) This system isn't up and going yet, and I have to get back out when the temps come up and we have a load, but the engineer said towards the end of last season, one of the compressors was making a noise which seemed to be coming from the top of the compressor which sounded like gravel. Giving the engineer the benefit of the doubt as to the sound, any direction as to what it might be?

Nice to hear from you Jackson, I work for the GDF SUEZ group and are one of the only AXIMA trained engineers in the UK, any information such as Factory/Service Manuals for the compressors would be useful.

I'm considering installing a TT300 in an existing building to replace the old chiller. I've read the posts above to know what to look out for - eg condensation, vibration from adjoining machinery etc.

If anyone has some comments and words of wisdom, I would appreciate it.

Hi Jackson,
We plan to use free-cooling packaged chiller with TurboCor compressors for data-center. In this case several questions:
1) Is it possible to use them till -32C ambient temperatures? What will happen with inbuilt electronics at these ambient temperatures? Or what is the minimum available ambient temperature for TurboCor?
2) Are they so reliable to use them to cool data-centers?

Please advise where i can find MAGLEV / Multistack Tech Data. I need to know more on the 120 Tons Air cooled Chiller, IPLV and other data.

How many watts does the maglev system consume?
I mean just the magnetic bearing and related control circuits.

A conventional gearless centrifugal compressor (such as Trane CVHG) has ball bearings that consume zero watts to function, although of course there is bearing drag, which saps power from the main motor.

The Turbocor would consume X watts just for the magnetic bearing to function, and Y watts lost through bearing drag.

How does X + Y compare with the friction losses of a conventional gearless centrifugal?

Can these compressors be used in a heat-pump?

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Originally Posted by Bash1803

Nice to hear from you Jackson, I work for the GDF SUEZ group and are one of the only AXIMA trained engineers in the UK, any information such as Factory/Service Manuals for the compressors would be useful.

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hello bash, you must be working for that total a**wipe DB, many engineers left because of him, how is he still working there?

Or are you one of the ones that went across to TM44 and soon to follow the manager to new arizons?

either way gdf suez are going nowhere if they can not retain good engineers and they wont with that supervisor still there, i know a very good engineer that left after only 3 weeks cause of this person and his name is on everyones lips in the south as a result

considered working there myself as money is quite good but i prefer to be happy at work rather than chase the money and put up with idi*ts.

must be true what i hear as this as come from 3 different engineers that worked there and one that still does who is just waiting for the right job to come along and then he is off also

if your 6'10" and from beds you know me anyway

regards

Turbocor compressors are good in terms of efficiency and energy saving, but no good for low temperature applications, as well as high ambient temperature. I see very few countries in the world that can exploit that potential. Few years have passed since this thread was opened, and no real advancement from Turbocor (or Danfoss, that is) in these regards were made.

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Originally Posted by RogerCool

hello bash, you must be working for that total a**wipe DB, many engineers left because of him, how is he still working there?

Or are you one of the ones that went across to TM44 and soon to follow the manager to new arizons?

either way gdf suez are going nowhere if they can not retain good engineers and they wont with that supervisor still there, i know a very good engineer that left after only 3 weeks cause of this person and his name is on everyones lips in the south as a result

considered working there myself as money is quite good but i prefer to be happy at work rather than chase the money and put up with idi*ts.

must be true what i hear as this as come from 3 different engineers that worked there and one that still does who is just waiting for the right job to come along and then he is off also

if your 6'10" and from beds you know me anyway

regards

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Hi Roger,

Thanks for your reply.
I was working within the service division of the company but have now moved to the Technical Division.
Unfortunatley, I cannot comment on internal company politics as it would be slightly un-professional, especially as I have no idea who you are!
Most managers and supervisors can be pratts, but I have found that as long as you get on and do the job without causing problems, they seem to leave you alone.

I'm about 6'2" and from Berks so you may not know me, but I beleive you are thinking of one of my colleagues.

Please don't hesitate to send me a PM if you fancy a chat, also to clue me up on who I'm speaking to as you seem to know me, but I have no idea who you are.

Many thanks,

Bash

Anyone knows about the differences between the Turbocor and the brand new McQuay centrifugal compressors with magnetic beraings used in the WMC/WME range? The principle seems to be the same... Where's the difference?

iw

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Originally Posted by ice wombat

Anyone knows about the differences between the Turbocor and the brand new McQuay centrifugal compressors with magnetic beraings used in the WMC/WME range? The principle seems to be the same... Where's the difference?

iw

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Hi
no differnce!
http://www.mcquay.com/mcquaybiz/lite...mp_Chiller.pdf

does york and mcqury magnetic bearing centrifigul compressors OEM by turboCor?

yes they are the same

i have been working on the turbocor chillers for a few years now and the best two ways iv found is the standard leak spray or i an ultrasound leak detector. i know there expensive but there arwe some cheaper versions around. and yes in noisey environments it is hard to listen for the leaks but when you get use to using the kit iv found it very handy.