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Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
I'm getting more and more calls from Jo Bloggs asking me to fit an ac unit they have brought from B&Q or E-Bay.
Not done any so far but am I just being a snob? Is there a way we can gain from this new trend?
Personaly I would rather size it correctly, Install good kit and look back after a hard days work and think "I did that"
Your thoughts...
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
no real gain as when you quote price they cry..
however make sure they understand 'no warrenty' and sign
cheers
richard
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Why not?
Charge the going rate, plus any remedial work.
Whoever does the work, any electricl instalations will still need compliance with the new UK building control regulations and you should be hold the competence to issue the compliance certificates.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
If you look at the amount that are sold on eBay, there is a business opportunity there. If you don't take advantage of it someone will.
Yes you must make it clear that you are not responsible for warranty issues on the unit.
The only thing they should expect from you is that the work you carry out is Satisfactory.
As long as the connections that you make are sound, should it fail pressure test, they should still pay you for your work, as the fault will be with the unit.
BTW I have been informed that one seller on eBay is sellin units that run on R22 and not disclosing it!
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
This is a chance to make a new customer. Turning down this work closes the door to future work. The man who takes this job will get the future work.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
I have installed a lot of these machines, I am actually going to look at one this morning in an internet cafe.
With resedential customers who want to save a few quid I tell them to mount the equipment and to provide the hole for the pipework, this as you know saves a lot of time then charge an hourly rate + travel + materials. I generally do conservatories and bedrooms at weekends when things tend to be a bit quieter.
A guy who I know who works for an wholesaler installs a lot of these machines for a £200 labour charge......cash!
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
I´ve done a few of these. As long as you tell the customer you´re not responable for the warranty you should be alright. I´ve got work after the customer has bought one unit from a DIY shop or where-ever and then wants another and buys it from me. And if you do a good job they tell their friends.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Quote:
The increased number of units (split mainly) being sold for DIY installation is giving some people very real cause for concern. Having read many posts on here its clearly an increasing problem. The introduction of combination boilers into the heating market saw the same problem there, with changes to the law and Corgi registration coming in to protect the public (Ha,Ha) The large DIY stores however, have a lot of clout and there is still nothing to stop DIYers buying or installing their OWN gas boilers. The trade on the other hand, is subject to ever increasing training costs and regs/codes of practise that seem to be revised overnight. When we, as a company commissioned boilers for a leading manufacturer, we found even the worst cowboy firms were vastly better than most DIYers. (I'm not saying all ;) ) My veiw is that tighter controls are a double edged sword and can easily bite you on the a55.;)
I think it would be a good idea, because at least the unit will be connected and vacced before running it. If people have grief they will slag off domestic aircon to their friends etc. they won't blame their own dodgy work!;)
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Having just bought a DIY Hinari kit I must admit I'll have a mitsi unit and installed by a professional next time.... to save the effort :-)
However many many trades work in areas where someone with the skills can DIY it.... such as I.T, decorators, mechanics, landscape gardeners.... need I go on?
What makes you any different? <pardon the indignity, just playing devils ad>
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
The problem is from people who don't research the installation, think its simple and then have a go. I acn imagine DIYers using any old bit of copper they have lying around, maybe using the wrong fittings as well. The electrics also need to be correct. I have nothing against people who find out how to do a job and then fit it themselves to the same standard as a pro. The average DIYer will not have a vac pump, nor any nitrogen, gauges etc. ;)
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Oh yes I agree its dangerous, but so is a poorly maintained car, although many would argue thats what the MOT is for. I always beleive in choice and am not for a nanny state, but thats another conversation all together.
I've made an interesting observation of this focus hinari diy unit I bought.
The restricted hiss noise of gas forced through a small valve has now gone from the two valves I opened.... however I still can hear the same noise coming from the rather clever connector that allowed me to join the two halfs of this pre-gassed system. So it seems buyers of these kits pay the price of diy by perhaps having a system that is not so efficient as I'm sure that connector is restricting the gas a little.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
The problem exactly Smokey, lack of equipment.
What do you recon it would cost a DIYer to buy the equipment just to install one unit?
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Even using cheap items off ebay, you are still talking £200-£300 for a vac pump+torr gauge. A manifold and gauge set plus hoses and then you should have a bootle of nitro+reg to leak test.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
i think these unit are a rip off i've never touched one myself because if you buy cheap goods use get a poor product which won't last like a dakien or mits, and the DIYers start playing with things they shouldn't and gives a bad name to the industry when gas is lost!
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
one point that nobody ever seems to touch on is the cost of running these units.Especially if they are not installed to a professional standard.
think of all that wasted electricity,of the extra pressure on the national grids during heat waves,think about those plug in portable units sitting near an open door or window in your local cafe.
this trend is unsustainable.....or sustainable at a large cost.
if somebody asks you to install a home kit or a second hand unit, advise them on the correct size of unit.show them how to maintain them.let them know of what else they can buy which have energy saving features that pay for themselves after a certain time.
educate them and challenge yourself at the same time.make all our lives a bit easier in the long run.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
And of course the best advice is,
Buy an Inverter...
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
I had a chap asking me to install a system he had bought off the internet, from Japan or somewhere. I checked the equipment and spotted it was R22.
So, it is worth asking the question over the phone before wasting your time going over to survey the site.
Also, this kind of customer will be a penny pincher type, normally, and tend to be a little more trouble and a little less markup than the normal install.
{But I do like the idea of having the customer cut the hole in advance of the install.}
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
I Say!
Typecasting people who buy on eBay as pennypinchers!:eek:
Yes there is a seller on eBay selling hundreds of R22 units, I emailed him, asking what gas they contain. He replied that he did not know.
I am reliably informed that these 'NETT' units contain R22.
So whats happening to these and all the other aircon units sold on eBay. Sitting in peoples garages?
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
It's the same as going with a bag to the baker within it: flour, leaven and salt and you ask the baker if he can make a bread of it and he may even deliver the water for the whole recipe. ;)
Speaking of a big profit.
This is a behavior I scorn, mostly miserly people who can't have it that someone else is earning money.
Same for manufacturers supplying units direct to end-users. Infamous behavior.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Hi guys,
I don't see any problem with installing units from Ebay, manufacturer or second hand as long as they are using the proper refrigerant and the customer can afford it.
Chemi:)
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
I have some proud left in my job and I find that I have to be paid for my experience and my knowledge.
If I could charge double wage/hour, then it should be OK, this should compensate for the loss on the margin on the equipment.
But peoples buying these units on Ebay and then searching for someone to install are also searching for the cheapest wage either.
So no, I don't go to the baker with the ingredients and asks him if he can make a bread of it and I don't give a raw fish to the fish seller and ask if he wants to clean it for me.
This will even not come in my mind daring to ask it.
This is for me something not done.
And that's because I find everybody has to live and earn his bread, but especially, I respect the knowledge of others and I want to pay for a good craftsmanship.
I like peoples who love their job, from which you can immediately see that they really live for it.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
It is so annoying that these people buy the systems direct, it does mean that we are missing out on the profit of the sale of the equipment yet we are saddled with the costs of correct traingin and registration for safe handling. selling these systems to untrained people along with selling these top up canisters of refrigerant to joe public is fundamentally wrong and undermines our industry.if you are a one man band working from home with low overheads working for a labour charge may be acceptable but for a small company with all the overheads associated wiht it you need to have some prifit from the spares and equipment. the government should stop the sale of refrigerant and eqiupment with refrigerant in to unskilled and un qualified people by the way of legislation
sorry to go one but this winds me right up (RIGHT UP)
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
This must be a new sector of the market for you guys? It must have been fairly rare for domestic AC installs to be carried out in the UK until fairly recently. In the UK AC is a luxury as opposed to a neccessity.
I wonder what percentage of the market the domestic sector represents, and what change there has been of late.
Your not getting the sale on the units? The Ebay sellers are. They must be making some profit?, their not making any on the install?
Look carefully at some of the ads, there are full install packages too.
Better look closely at this 'New Market' there might be some profit in there if you look close enough.
Perhaps your glass is half full not half empty...
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Looks like I'll have to increase the cost of your install then Mick after reading these last few posts :D
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frank
Looks like I'll have to increase the cost of your install then Mick after reading these last few posts :D
Where the grimace Icon? :p
Just a comment on the changing, or perhaps developing market, depending on how you look at it.
I think i'm in the wrong business:rolleyes:
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Below is a copy of an email sent to an Ebay seller:
(mailsaleblues) who is selling Samsung units.
"Do you realise that your information regarding DIY installation is instructing people to break the law? It is illegal to cause any discharge of refrigerant gas (including environmentally friendly gases) to the atmosphere. You state that 'no vacuum pump is required' and you 'can expell the air' from the pipes.
This is just not the case. A vacuum pump IS required to get rid of moisture as well as removing air. As a professional, this information that you supply is misleading, encouraging illegal discharge and will hasten the demise of the unit and compressor."
How can we bring pressure on these 'rogue traders'
....any ideas?
Maybe better posted under "ebay didn't like it" thread....only saw that after posting this so maybe someone can move this posting?
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Dead right.
If they had a shop, it would be a trade descrition issue, I am sure. Since my posting on eBay. (One auction was chopped because I was not actually selling anything) there has been an improvement in information given by some sellers. The 'NETT' salesman, continues to peddle his R22 units!
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Had a reply to my above email:
"Thanks a lot for your information, that is serious.
Are you an installer? The reason I'm asking - our custumers from Midland are looking for installer."
There might be some work out there if needed
Adrian
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
The refrigerant side, best left to the experts, which is not my area. Seems that most here work mainly in the commercial sector, though there may be takers. Good Luck.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Electrocoolman
Below is a copy of an email sent to an Ebay seller:
"Do you realise that your information regarding DIY installation is instructing people to break the law? It is illegal to cause any discharge of refrigerant gas (including environmentally friendly gases) to the atmosphere. You state that 'no vacuum pump is required' and you 'can expell the air' from the pipes.
This is just not the case. A vacuum pump IS required to get rid of moisture as well as removing air. As a professional, this information that you supply is misleading, encouraging illegal discharge and will hasten the demise of the unit and compressor."
How can we bring pressure on these 'rogue traders'
....any ideas?
I think the target should be eBay.
I recall a situation where an eBayer was selling pirate software and I took it up with eBay, info'ing copies to Microsoft. They closed the account of that individual.
{Possibly they also let him open up a few hours later, granted.}
So, if you emailled eBay with all the details, and info'ed a few interested persons......oooh, maybe Inst of Refrig, a few police, few Gov people, esp green-types. That kind of pressure will cause something to happen inside eBay, I am sure. Afterall, they are marketting this illegal traffic.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
In a situation like this, you are actually sitting between the devil and the deep blue sea!
If you decline, there won't be jobs in the future from this client.
If you accept, you are sitting with a unit that is either undersized, or crap that can fail any minute! (Wait for the call to fix it!)
Being in the refrigeration/air conditioning business for about 22 years, i will decline.
Just remember that you are not a parts fitter, but a technician with experience!
I would like to get paid for what I know, not what I am doing.
Old Refrigeration Technicians never die, they just leak out!
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Is this still going?
Your not going to get a lot more work from a domestic user anyway? But the repair costs on that chinese unit aint gonna be cheap!
There does not seem to be much quality stuff on ebay at the moment, (one gets fussy when one has a Daikin:rolleyes:) It's doing a good job too, keeping us warm this (UK) summer!
There are some INVERTER BERGDORF Air Con 12K BTU Air Con (DIY) Do It Yourself No Vac Pump No engineer required. Yeh Whatever?:cool:
And some installers getting on the bandwagon offering full install, though I suspect that prices may be for back to back installation.
Anyway, I'm off to Las Vegas tomorrow to do some real aircon spotting...
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eeram
In a situation like this, you are actually sitting between the devil and the deep blue sea!
If you decline, there won't be jobs in the future from this client.
If you accept, you are sitting with a unit that is either undersized, or crap that can fail any minute! (Wait for the call to fix it!)
Being in the refrigeration/air conditioning business for about 22 years, i will decline.
Just remember that you are not a parts fitter, but a technician with experience!
I would like to get paid for what I know, not what I am doing.
Old Refrigeration Technicians never die, they just leak out!
I agree with the first sentence, but this is where we part ways.
If we do not install it some yahoo will, whom will make it worse for both the customer and the environment, how ever we should make the customer well aware of the poor choice they have made in ordering such a unit this way! Long as you have it in writing they under stand there is no warranty of any sort, and most certainly no promise it will work well then go ahead and install it the proper way! This I think is the logical solution.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Even Vaillant is selling split units and also Zibro (from the petroleum heaters!).
Zibro sells from diy centres across holland for prizes beyond believe! And advertize they have made prize deals with installers for "nice" prizes!
Although there is a market for these units I wouldn't burn my hands on one! A friend of mine wouldn't listen and did an instal anyway, you wouldn't believe the sh*t he had, even though he was clear on the waranty part before! Last time he did a diy unit!
Just had a read through the site of zibro. They even advertize that with their "easyConnect" you wouldn't even need a certified installer! Just cut an 8 cm hole in the wall for the pipes!
The folde is in dutch, but the pictures say enough! http://www.climateshop.nl/klimaat-sh...?w=easyconnect
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chilly
I'm getting more and more calls from Jo Bloggs asking me to fit an ac unit they have brought from B&Q or E-Bay.
Not done any so far but am I just being a snob? Is there a way we can gain from this new trend?
Personaly I would rather size it correctly, Install good kit and look back after a hard days work and think "I did that"
Your thoughts...
Personaly I'm not bother'd.
Equipment will always vary in quality.
I always insist in instaling to a good standard.
I would always garentee my work.
If the customer wants me to install cheap quality equipment then I will install it for the customer but my price will not change and I make sure that the customer knows and understands that my work is garenteed but his equipment is not.
taz
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
I'll always guarantee my work but will always point out that what they have bought is a piece of junk and will always calculate the heat load for the room just to show the customer, if they wish to go ahead then I will charge exactly what I would charge for the installation of one of my own pieces of equipment. I would also tell them just how much I would charge for the correctly sized Tosh inverter and then back it up by showing how quiet my little demo unit is..The customer then has the choice.
Whenever I'm asked to fit one of these El Cheapo units I always use B&Q as an example, If B&Q units are so good, then why do they cool their offices with Toshibas?...Gives them something to ponder on ;)
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Personally we refuse to get involved in installing any equipment not sourced through proper distributors, as its rather irritating that we have to all obtain safe handling certificates, specialist insurances, produce handling procedures and the likes of b&q are just getting school leavers to move the things around and transporting on there own haulage with no trained staff.
In addition how many people wont attempt to install themselves, we have had numerous calls from householders who have attempted install and then ring us when they get into difficuilty.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
It surprises me that no-one is making 'hydronic' systems for the DIY market that can be connected with water. Surely that is the way forward for the DIY market?
BTW I've DIYed a couple of systems myself. I did by a cheap set of guages (~£30), hired a pump (£35) but did not pressure test. Has been OK though.
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
completehvac
Personally we refuse to get involved in installing any equipment not sourced through proper distributors, as its rather irritating that we have to all obtain safe handling certificates, specialist insurances, produce handling procedures and the likes of b&q are just getting school leavers to move the things around and transporting on there own haulage with no trained staff.
In addition how many people wont attempt to install themselves, we have had numerous calls from householders who have attempted install and then ring us when they get into difficuilty.
I have just been on the B&Q Website and there is no mention of any install details.Just the option to buy!
I stopped short of actually buying a unit. There not cheap and I have never heard of the "Airforce" brand. Presumeably Chinese and imposible to get spares for?
Is it not now illegal for anyone to Install without a CITB or C&G safe handling Certificate? (Jimbo take note... )
Anyone know whats actually being stated once one is purchased?
Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ons/icon14.gif
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Re: Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?
B&Q sell two types - Pro install, not suitable for DIY written all across them, and self-install, with a Deloghi style click-clack connector and flexible lines.