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are there any good industrial frige books available?
i do have a few, my favourite being Industrial Refrigeration priciples, design and application by P.C Koelet. but they are all quite old now and i wonder if there are any newer books around specificaly looking at control technologhy, PLCs, inverters etc etc. As control technologhy has come on in leaps and bounds since these book were published.
Any ideas?
Koelet is a Belgium engineer.;)
I can suggest Industrial Refrigeration from Stoecker.
Controls are a different animal, most of the refrigerations books dont go into it a whole lot., you best bet is to find OEM'S specs.
I didnt like Stoeckers book, I'm in the middle of reading "refrigeration systems and applications by Ibrahim Dincer, very good book much better than Stoeckers in my opinion.
US Iceman, does this rings a bell for you?
I feel other than the Ashrae's Handbooks, Industrial Refrigeration by W. Stoecker is a very good book
Johny*****, is the book of Dincer also more Industrial related and much literature about NH3 as in Stoeckers book?
You not only need fancy pictures in color but what I need is usefull information.
Anyhow, the book of Dincer was something I didn't have in my library and I just ordered one.
Indeed it does... On several points.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_1
I also have Dincers book. The one on Industrial Refrigeration and another on food freezing. I particulary like the food freezing book. I also think he has a book on thermal storage, which I should obtain.
I have been watching this thread for other reasons too Peter, which you and Josip are aware of.:D
The book of P.C Koelet is very good also.
Koelet's book is a littel bit outdates but it is the only book (besides ASHRAE) I have - I think I have +/- 50 books - where you can find information frost heave protection.
Before the internet era, long time ago, this was my only source how to calculate it.
I met Koelet personal some times and his name is often misspelled on the internet as Keolet.
not much about NH3 in Dincer books and not a single color picture just a few in black and white. Stoeckers writings are a bit too complicated for me, I like simple readings like Dossat or Dincer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_1
By the way I'm selling a copy of "refrigeration and air conditioning technology" four edition with lots of good color pictures $40 bucks will make it yours.
Peter,
i have just looked on Amozon and there are 3 industrial frige books by stoecker:Quote:
I can suggest Industrial Refrigeration from Stoecker.
industrial refrigeration vol 1 (1987)
industrial refrigeration vol 2 (1995)
industrial refrigeration handbook (1998)
i asume vol 2 is just an updated version of vol 1, but what about the handbook?
which book is it that you speak of?
another good book in my library is Cold and chilled storage technology by Dellino. it looks at lot more than the refrigeration plant eg bulk stores and associated services, distribution depots and vehicles, controlled atmosphere storage, energy conservation, store insulation, electrical installations, racking systems, mechanical handling, coldstore doors, fully automated coldstores,
being a coldstore site based engineer who looks after everything else on site, not just frige plant, i have found this book quite usefull even though it is pretty old now (1990).
Hi ecclesk,
The Industrial Refrigeration Handbook by Stoecker is the newest edition. The first two books listed are the first versions of the Handbook. Volumes 1 & 2 were with a different publisher I believe.
So, if you want the latest edition buy the Handbook.
Can you provide more information on the Cold Store book by Dellino please. ISBN, etc.
That might be worth adding to my library.
Thanks.
Hardcover: 344 pages
Publisher: Blackie Academic and Professional (March 1990)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0442206739
ISBN-13: 978-0442206734
Product Dimensions: 0.8 x 6.5 x 9.5 inches
I just ordered my copy US Iceman ;)
Thanks Peter. I will look into getting a copy.
I just hope the copy you ordered is not the last one that is for sell.:p
I ran into this problem on the Industrial Compressors Book by O'Neill. I cannot find a copy of this anywhere.:(
Peter,
I found a copy of the cold store book in South Africa through Alibris. The last one they had.
Amazon had two or three, but the cost was almost $50 higher with them.
It will take several weeks to get here, so if you get your copy first, please share your thoughts with me on the book.
Thanks.
I bought industrial compressors after a recommendation of M. O' Brien some time ago.
Ohh, those good old days that were :D
I think you bought the last copy of that book on the market Peter. I am still looking for the Industrial Compressor book and one written by Duncan Chisholm on two Phase Flow in Pipelines.
Sadly, it appears the university library is my only source and they don't sell their copies.:rolleyes:
looks like some one beat me to it:DQuote:
Can you provide more information on the Cold Store book by Dellino please. ISBN, etc.
i shall definately be getting a copy of the industrial refrigeration handbook. and i'll be keeping an eye out for the compressor book also:)
i'm quite suprised there isn't a good upto date book available which specificaly covers control technology/philosophy, energy saving of industrial refrigeration plant surly there would be a big market for it especially with whats happened to electricity costs,
we have had two large increases in the last 15 months, our annual cost has now risen from around £120,000 to £270,00.:eek:
Could I have the name of the publisher of the book - Refrigeration System & Application by Ibrahim Dincer, please.
This is why so many firms are starting to get into energy consulting and conservation. There is a good market for it, if the owners are willing to listen, and, the firms doing the analysis understand industrial refrigeration systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by ecclesk
Just imagine if the owner had spent some money on energy reduction about 12 months ago. Those improvments would have been saving money very quickly.
Energy savings is more than control systems. In my opinion, control systems are what you install after the refrigeration system has been optimized for minimum energy use.
Control systems offer a lot of bells & whistles, but they are only as good as the control logic, and more importantly, the ability of the refrigeration system to operate in various conditions.
Samarjit Sen,
Here is a link for the information on the Dincer book....
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyT...471623512.html
Thank you US Iceman. I have been able to locate the book Refrigeration System & Application be Ibrahim Dincer and have placed my order for the same. The other book Cold Store by Dellino is not available instead the suppliers have reccommended highly about the following book.
Cold and Chilled Storage Technology
Dellino, C.V.J.
2nd ed., 1997, 334 p., Hardcover
ISBN: 978-0-7514-0391-6
Do you or any one else have gone through this book and can tell me about the same.
With best wishes,
HI ,
I have recently puchased the book:
Cold and Chilled Storage Technology
Dellino, C.V.J.
2nd ed., 1997, 334 p., Hardcover
ISBN: 978-0-7514-0391-6
Hopefully, it will be delivered soon. One of our other members has the book and perhaps he could offer more information on the content.
The other book by Dincer was about thermal storage, which I suspect is about using ice or chilled water to provide additional stored cooling capacity for HVAC or process applications.
Hi,
Reading all posts about suggestions for good book about refrigeration I can say all books are good, but....Quote:
Originally Posted by ecclesk
not for everyone. Why?
After so many years in industrial refrigeration I can say there is no one book dealing with everything at the same level for everyone.
As we have available so many primary and secondary refrigerants, oils, applications (industrial, process, commercial heavy and lite, home) types and sizes of compressors, condensers, evaporators, controls, etc... it is impossible to put all that in one book. Even if all of that is in one book, matter is so wide and can be described only in basic terms without complete and good explanation how stuff works and what is applicable for specific RHVAC plant.
What I want to say is, everyone who is asking for some suggestion about RHVAC books must be more specific to say what is of some interest for him/her otherwise he/she can get a wrong book ;)
Visiting doctor we have to say what exactly is our problem to get a right diagnose and medicaments:eek: .
Maybe I am not right....
Best regards, Josip :)
Josip raises many valid points. There is too much of a tendency to want books that cover all of the details. A book is no replacement for experience or first hand exposure.
The books written all seem to start with some form of the basics and then continue to explain different areas or topics the author felt important.
There is just TOO MUCH information to write a single book on industrial refrigeration. The books that try to address a wide range of topics invariably only provide a small amount of detail.
I have also seen a large increase in requests for information about control systems. Why??? A control system simply turns things on or off.
The real problem related to control systems is: how will the system work at different conditions? And, what type of control logic allows the system to use the minimum amount of energy.
The factor that makes a good control system is the control logic. This you will only get from understanding the interaction of the components in operation and how refrigeration systems work in a dynamic situation.
I think you are pretty close to the answer there my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josip
I agree with you US Iceman.Quote:
Originally Posted by US Iceman
In my opinion, we need optimum design of refrigeration plant and optimum operation of refrigeration plant. For optimum operation we need 2 PLCs. One PLC will determine the optimum set points and operating strategies and second one will implement these points and strategies. However, we have only PLCs for implementing certain set points and strategies, but we don't have PLCs to determine optimum set points and operating strategies.
Sergei
Hi Sergei,
You raise an interesting concept here.
What this sounds like to me (if I paraphrase this correctly) is something like a co-processor. One PLC (or PC) runs optimization logic which should be based on the specific equipment installation and the existing conditions (weather, load, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei
Based on the derived optimization routines, the setpoints of the second PLC (or again PC) would "float" to match the optimization code.
That's an interesting concept. One thing I fear is by making the routines specific to the equipment, each control system would have to be customized, which may be time consuming in development.
A generalized optimization routine might not be as accurate as a specific one, although I suspect the generalized code would provide excellent results.
I'm thinking out loud, so feel free to share your thoughts on this.
Hi, US Iceman.Quote:
Originally Posted by US Iceman
I think that we have controlling PLC(PC) like Hench, Frick and etc. Many people do not realize that controlling PLCs don't save energy itself. They save energy by implementing optimum set points and operating strategies. These PLCs are our tools. To run a plant efficiently, we have to use these tools properly.
Sergei
Hi Sergei,
I agree 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei
Hi, Sergei :)
Please can you explain this little more in plain english (is this correct expression?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei
Why only 2 PLCs, are you familiar with such controls? Do you have some examples?
Are you speaking about SCADA (Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition) system or ....?
Best regards, Josip :)
This is just idea. First PLC should work as "brain" of refrigeration plant. It determines the best set points and operating strategies, and sends this information to the second PLC for implementation. First PLC just doesn't exist now, because optimization of refrigeration plant is very complicated issue. Contractors, manufacturers, operating engineer choose the set points at best their knowledge(instead of first PLC). Certainly these choices are not optimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josip
Sergei
I personally think that nowadays PLC's are more then powerfull enough to perform these tasks.
We don't need some redundancy like in airplanes where one PLC controls the other.
There excist also fail safe PLC's (in fact two in one performing the same tasks where there's a switch from the 1st to the 2nd in case of a failure)
Pilz PLC's are a well known name in this field.
The SCADA package is for those who don't know what a SCADA is just a visualisation of all the measured and controlled values in a nice understandable color screen on a computer.
We used twice a SCADA from Citect but Labview is also well known.
we experimented some time with small PLC's from Tri-plc http://www.tri-plc.com/
In my first thread i did ask about industrial refrigeration books looking specificaly at control technology, plc's, inverters etc etc.:)Quote:
What I want to say is, everyone who is asking for some suggestion about RHVAC books must be more specific to say what is of some interest for him/her otherwise he/she can get a wrong book
.Quote:
I think that we have controlling PLC(PC) like Hench, Frick and etc. Many people do not realize that controlling PLCs don't save energy itself. They save energy by implementing optimum set points and operating strategies. These PLCs are our tools. To run a plant efficiently, we have to use these tools properly
i couldn't agree more, but PLC's cerainly make it easier to to experiment with different control philosophies, we have been running lots of trials/ different ideas to save on energy costs over the last 2yrs and if our systems wern't plc controled each trial would have envolved rewiring control panels where as with the plc's we can make minor changes ourselves and anything too complicated we get a software engineer in:D
I dont understand why you would need 2 plc's?:confused:Quote:
agree with you US Iceman.
In my opinion, we need optimum design of refrigeration plant and optimum operation of refrigeration plant. For optimum operation we need 2 PLCs. One PLC will determine the optimum set points and operating strategies and second one will implement these points and strategies. However, we have only PLCs for implementing certain set points and strategies, but we don't have PLCs to determine optimum set points and operating strategies.
Sergei
any decent PLC if spec'd correctly will carry out everything you require.
Certainly, it can be one PLC. But this PLC should be able to determine optimum set points, operating strategies and it should be able to implement these points and strategies. Your experimentation is just attempt to substitute the first part of this PLC.
Certainly, modern PLC are powerful but the most important part of every PLC is software( or "brain" of PLC). It is very difficult task to create software for optimum set points determination.
Sergei
Hi, Ecclesk :)
Yes you are right;) my mistake, sorry:Quote:
Originally Posted by ecclesk
i stick with bold text, my replay was not addressed directly to you, just generally..;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ecclesk
Hi, Sergei :)
So, coming to beginning;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei
we still can make a very good design using the best available PLCs (with good software custom made, not universal one even if programmable, for each unit separately (compressors, condensers, evaporators, pumps, etc...) trying to set them to optimum set points and change them manually when needed;)
Of course very important is to have a good, skilled maintenance crew or operators (seems not any more because today's owners thinking "we have PLC/PC and we do not need expensive workers) knowing exactly what to do with all the "brains" installed.
Best regards, Josip :)
Probably, we are talking about different optimizations. I mentioned about operating optimization not design optimization. First PLC/PC should determine the optimum operating set points based on refrigeration load, outside conditions and etc. Second PLC/PC should implement these set points by choosing compressor sequence and load, condenser sequence, condensing pressure, suction pressure, defrosting and etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josip
Sergei
No system operates at design conditions, they merely cross them at times.
This thread is taking a turn into a different subject, but it is somewhat still related to the original thread. This discussion on controls is something that should be included in books.:cool:
I think I understand what you mean. There are two important and distinct areas here;Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei
1) System design which is optimized for flexible operation in any condition (full load, part load, summer, winter, or a combination of these). Simply put, the system has to be able to operate efficiently at any condition, with the minimum amount of energy being used. This is the system design area.
2) The control systems have to be designed to provide the control of the refrigeration system during the above conditions AND be intelligent (good control logic). It is the control logic which determines the proper point of operation to achieve minimum energy use. However, the refrigeration system must be designed so that no barriers limit the possible savings. (this is what tends to happen now:o )
If the refrigeration systems are well designed, the control system provides the ability to sustain the efficiency (built into the design) during any operating condition.
i want to know the best available coating on a/c coils to prevent gas leaks ( for ac installed near the open drain)
Sanjeev, this thread is called "Re: Sugestions for a good industrial refrigeration book"
So...????
Ohh, welcome to RE:o
Hi US Iceman, how about starting a thread in the system optimisation section perhapse disscussing control logic & energy efficiency?Quote:
This thread is taking a turn into a different subject, but it is somewhat still related to the original thread. This discussion on controls is something that should be included in books.
Hi ecclesk,
Quote:
Hi US Iceman, how about starting a thread in the system optimisation section perhapse disscussing control logic...
Done. Here is the link to the new thread.
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ead.php?t=6998