R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
I was shocked to see a LPG sticker on a diesel locomotive train i was working on the other day.
The system has no gas and had about 10 metres of flexible hose which has a few leaks.
This train also has a fire a few days ago . The air con hasent been working for a few months though.
There is a guy in a different state who has put this gas in a few different units ,
my mate suspects he doesnt have a refrigerant handling license so is using LPG .
I said r290 is not LPG from your local fuel station used for your barbeque .
Does anyone live in Australia and know much about R290 the laws or how you get it?
I wouldnt mind finding this guy and getting him in trouble .
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Another random guy is using normal oil or fuel hose instead of refrigerant hose.
Im not to sure but it doesnt look like the stuff we use. Is this just going to break down and leak?
Re: R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Simeonx1
Does anyone live in Australia and know much about R290 the laws or how you get it?
I wouldnt mind finding this guy and getting him in trouble .
R290 is available from a number of sources. HyChill sell to the public if you ask nicely.
Some of us can't get a refrigerant handling license, so we use what we can get our hands on legally.
In Aus, BBQ Propane is pretty much just that. LPG is a different story and varies on a per-state basis, but every bottle of LPG I've put a gauge set on has matched a R290 Pt curve. It can be a bit wet though depending on where it comes from.
A 60/40 mix of Propane/ISO-Butane is a pretty close match for R12 as far as Pt characteristics.
Re: R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
LPG is 95% or more propane, plus a 5% of other hydrocarbons, water and other gases.
It works perfectly as refrigerant, as long as you don't mind replacing the compressor more often than not.
Re: R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
The original poster is in Australia. In Australia, depending on which state you are in LPG is a mix of Propane and Butane (Not ISO-Butane). My original post had an error, in which I stated every bottle of "LPG", where I mean "BBQ Propane". Iso-Butane can be separated with careful fractional distillation of camping gas cylinders if you know where to look ;)
As to replacing the compressor "more often than not", if you cycle your Propane through a filter/drier enough times and remove the non-condensibles (which can be mostly removed by liquid siphoning the inverted bottle) you can get close enough to R290 to run a system for a couple of years (which has been my limited run time). If you don't want to go to the trouble, I can give you 3 phone numbers of people more than willing to sell you Hydrocarbon "R22" substitutes in Aus for $50/Kilo. I wonder what that is?
The fact I have to toss in my career and give up supporting my family to start again with another (already done one) 4 year apprenticeship in refrigeration just to get a refrigerant handling license is more the crime.
Having said that, I don't do other peoples systems and all my systems are clearly marked in multiple locations with indelible laminated labels stating the systems are filled with flammable hydrocarbons.
How many million R600a fridges are out there?
Re: R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
Yes i know its really hard to get a license . But Doesn't anyone agree putting LPG into a moving vehicle and a massive expensive one of that a bad idea,
What do i do to the system to get it back running on r134a . He has done no changes to the system.
Flush the system out replace driers . Put r134a of good to go ?
Re: R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Simeonx1
Yes i know its really hard to get a license . But Doesn't anyone agree putting LPG into a moving vehicle and a massive expensive one of that a bad idea,
Dude, really?! Loads (like 10-20%) of vehicles carry 45kg of the stuff in the boot on a daily basis, plus an additional 60L of another hydrocarbon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Simeonx1
What do i do to the system to get it back running on r134a . He has done no changes to the system. Flush the system out replace driers . Put r134a of good to go ?
R290 is very (like very very very) miscible in lubricants, so pull a good vacuum for a decent period to ensure you suck it all out of the oil. The other thing that happens with BBQ Propane is the oil absorbs the ethyl mercaptan (the stench) from the gas. I'd put a burnout drier in if you can as the mercaptan can break down and release sulfonates into the system.
Re: R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
Do the State Railway people know about what is going on. Get the Artik license sorted out please
Re: R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
Magoo, currently ARCTIC have no authority over R290, R600 or R600a. Don't know who owns what Railway as each state has their own transport systems. Queensland's was sold off some time ago.
Re: R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Magoo
Do the State Railway people know about what is going on. Get the Artik license sorted out please
Magoo I never said i didnt have a license !!! read the post correctly. We all do who work for a company . we got audited the other day and the guy said we are doing great.
We replaced the compressor and drier . Was thinking of a burn out dryer will do on the next one.
I know people have explosive gas in there cars all the time. but i thought it was outlawed in a refrigeration system on a vehicle.
my main problem is that the hose they used is breaking down and leaking into the engine section of the train.
There is a different from having a nice ceiled bottle in your car and having some lpg pumping around your system spitting out flambe gas into a 20million machine .
Re: R290 LPG Used in a Locomotive train
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Simeonx1
I know people have explosive gas in there cars all the time. but i thought it was outlawed in a refrigeration system on a vehicle.
I know it was banned in the US and i know Queensland tried to outlaw it at some point, but then sanity prevailed. I've seen it put in loads of cars in Aus since R12 was banned. I remember 15 years ago the guy giving me the option of a retrofit (including a completely new compressor at great expense) or HyChill. Guess which one I chose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Simeonx1
my main problem is that the hose they used is breaking down and leaking into the engine section of the train.
Same problem they've found Australia-wide with LPG systems in cars. Some of the rubber hoses they were using had the plasticiser leach out into the fluid. In the cars it was deposited in the vaporizer causing all sorts of issues. In a refrigeration system it would be carried with the oil and probably gum up the drier.
Flexible hoses are always dicey when you use them for chemicals other than those they've been designed for. A Teflon inner is your best bet. Having said that, I check the hoses in my car A/C every other year and I've not seen any degradation from the HC gas.
The gaskets on my cheap Chinese hoses and ball valves were eaten by Propane. I just replaced them with CPS gaskets and the problem went away. Oddly enough, the hoses have been ok.
