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This my first thread.
We are looking to refurb offices and add AC. There are 4 floors each requiring about 45Kw. Each floor to be an independant system. We have been recomended a heat recovery system. There seem to be significant price diffrences from diffrent manufacturers. As I understand Daikin and Mitsubushi are the market leaders. But i have been offered a Hitachi system and I was wondering how does it compare to the leaders in quality, reliability and technology.
Any advice welcome
Rammy
The Hitachi Set Free 3 pipe heat recovery is much the same as Daikin 3 pipe VRV in basic design & operation but has some very usefull & effective standard features.
Hitachi have what could be called a delux advanced version of the 3 pipe design.
The CS Net centralised PC control is about the best on the market available for controlling all indoor units in the building from one computer.
They dont sell so many systems in the UK as Mitsubishi & Diakin but have very good manufacturer after sales back up. 5 year warranty is available with Hitachi engineer carrying out final commissioning check.
The Mitsubishi Electric City Multi VRF is a completely different heat recovery system as it only uses 2 pipes & still can carry out full heat recovery.
Its very clever advanced use of electronic control makes it very efficient heating cooling & heat recovery. It will do everything any 3 pipe system can do & will be quicker & easier for the contractor to install.
The centralised touch screen controller is easily the best on the market.
Manufacturer after sales back up from a large team of dedicated engineers.
5 year warranty available if the installing contractor is Mitsubishi Partner contractor or Mitsubishi engineer carries out final commissioning.
I would definately look at adding a heat pump boiler to the Mitsubishi system for free or almost free hot water for toilets & kitchins.
Also use Lossnay fresh air energy recovery for the most efficient heat recovery & fully interlocked with City Multi system & control.
Daikin are still a major player but probably only because they swamp the market with sales people.
Mitsubishi Electric & Hitachi are miles better products.
Although I will get flammed by some Daikin die hard engineers for that comment :eek:
If you search hard enough you will find that there's a price difference of approx. 30-40% between the market leaders and "other" manufacturers. As you stated Mitsi Electric & Daikin are the market leaders in VRF/VRV systems and generally have the more advanced systems with all the latest "bells & whistles". The question is how many of the the bells & whistles do you really need or can you make use of?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammy
There are other manufacturers like Hitachi, Toshiba, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (to name just three) that offer perfectly acceptable and reliable 3-pipe VRF heat recovery systems at more competitive prices. It's much like compairing a BMW or Mercedes with a Ford or Vauxhall. Both will do the job but if the Ford or Vauxhall does the job for 30% less why pay more? Unlike cars there should be no snob value and in these hard pressed times I don't know of anyone that is not looking at trying to save some costs if they can.
We regularly offer clients prices for comparable Daikin, Mitsi Elec, Toshiba, Hitachi, MHI & other makes of VRF and simple split A/C systems. For smaller split systems the finacial savings are not very much (10-20% of £1.5 to £3.5k) but on larger projects like yours the savings can be considerable (30% on a £100k project is not to be sneezed at).
There are some other factors that will affect the final choice of manufacturer and it's installed cost. e.g.
- Location of outdoor units - roof or ground level? Modular outdoor units lend themselves better for roof mounting. Larger heavier single module outdoor units (e.g MHI & Hitachi) that cannot fit in lifts will need a crane to get them on the roof at extra cost so are better off at ground level.
- Efficiency. Are you planning to claim tax allowances under the Enhanced Capital Allowance (ECA) scheme?
- Controls & BMS interface? Simple stand alone system or complicated interface to 3rd party or existing system?
- Heat recovery to hot water for toilets and kitchens? Mitsi & Daikin offer this option on their systems others do not.
- Ventilation requirements etc. etc.
Any make of system should be reliable if it's installed correctly and maintained regularly. However, some makes are more reliable than others. All of the makes mentioned above are generally OK but even the best some times have problems. Unfortunately unlike cars, manufacturers of AC systems cannot issue a recall notice and provide you with a spare one while yours is being fixed so full tech back up and UK spares stocks are essential. All the major brands are pretty good but once again some are better than others in terms of the warranty offered and availability of spares.
It's a fact that most of our clients will disregard the cheapest and most expensive prices we offer them and go for the middle price system. Notice I said price. This is because it is the budget that is driving the purchase not whether one system is more efficient, has more features or has a longer warranty than another.
Let us know if we can be of further assistance.
Rammy,
From your post I take it you are an enduser and not an installer...
As Greengrocer mentions, your question shouldn't really be what brand to use.
All the brands mentioned in this thread makes beautiful, reliable VRV/VRF systems. Where things normally goes wrong is during the design and installation process.
During the design process corners are cut to save money. This might mean fewer units, smaller units or fewer systems.
During the selection process of the contractor installed price seems to be the given criteria. People rarely or never seem to ask the 'right' questions and check if they get truthful answers. 'Have you installed these type of systems before' should be #1, closely followed by 'how many breakdowns do you get on them' and 'can I see a system you installed and speak to the customer'.
Nah, never happens...
The systems we are talking about are all 'special' and they are sensitive beasts, if they are not installed according to what I would call 'good engineering practises' and by engineers that have experience of working with them, they have all got a tendency to end up like the proverbial can of worms.
i believe you answered the question yourself.
you get what you pay for, same as a car in a way.just without the wheels etc.
i believe tosh are doing 5 year warranty now and would probably be in the middle of the too.
All im saying is look at what you get with it and just dont go by price.
look at the small print from contractor too,
regards