Potato Cold Storages

Could some one let me know as to the advanced technology that could be adopted for the storage of potatos in Cold Storage to attain proper conditions and consume low power. The capacity of the Cold Storages are 2000 MT and the approximate dimensions are 45 ft. x 70 ft. x 45 ft. ht.

In our country most of the Cold Storages are closing down due to in efficient design causing high electricity bills. Reciprocating compressors are being used with NH3 refrigerant.

The valuable advices of the experts in this field shall be greatly appreciated.

Dear Samarjit,

Technology for CA cold storage abound nowadays. Also, the cost of building one is not as much as 2 or 3 years ago.

Banana precoolers & ripening rooms have been around for 2 decades and in the past few years i saw some applications in pineapple and mango. I believe, in the apple storage it has been for very long time.
Applying it to other commodity (fruits, vegetable, flowers) which are living organism is a matter of finding the correct conditions necessary for them to undergo all the physiological and pathological processes associated with each produce.

Regarding the energy bill, sometimes its not the design that matters most. A lot of factors are from owners attitude, operators' education, etc. . . .

Energy economics is a very complex science and a lot of so called expert have little understanding in energy management.

For any urgent need send me an email or PM.

Regards
Winfredy

Dear Fredy,

I have already sent you an e mail.

You see here in our country there are a lot of Cold Storages for various products, but due to lack of upgraded technology, the plants are mostly shut down. I am trying my best to study the technologies that are available in the World, and for that I need the help of this forum and its engineers.

With best wishes,

Hi, Samarjit Sen :)

Check those links, please:

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ighlight=onion

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ighlight=onion

http://vric.ucdavis.edu/selectnewtopic.undergnd.htm



Can you tell us something more about climate in area where you want to have potato cold store

best regards, Josip :)

Dear Josip,

Thank you very much for the links.

You see Potato Cold Storages are very common in our country. Unfortunately most of these are closed due to inefficient plant performance, wrong design and very high electricity consumption. I have been asked by a number of the Potato Cold Storage Associations and the Government authorities to help them in reopening and recommissioning the same. In my earlier discussions with these authorities, I had emphasised on getting the system properly designed and modernising the same.

The weather conditions are variable. Mostly the areas where you have the maximum Cold Storages are very hot in summer, the temperatures may go up to 42 Deg. C DB and then Cold in summer.

All the plants are ammonia based and the system layout the installation are fit for the Hall of Shame. Generally the people who have hardly any knowledge in refrigeration take up these projects and the complete design is based thumb rule. It appears that there are more thumbs and hands.

Basically the compressors are reciprocating. Some are even local manufacture. The condensers are known as evaporative condensers. They are just bare MS tubes i serpentine form, located above a water take with water trickling over it. ( Please do not confuse with the actual Evaporative Condensers )

The Cooling units are again plain MS tubes fixed on the top tier of the Cold Room, over which ordinary ceiling fans are provided for circulating the air. These are known as Bunker Coils. ( Please do not again confuse with above rail coils of Colmac Coils )

There are generally 4 to 5 tiers in each Cold Storages.

I am interested to know as to what is the system that is being adopted for getting an efficient plant in the Western Part of the World.

Any further information required, please do let me know.

With best wishes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samarjit Sen

The condensers are known as evaporative condensers. They are just bare MS tubes i serpentine form, located above a water take with water trickling over it...

The Cooling units are again plain MS tubes fixed on the top tier of the Cold Room, over which ordinary ceiling fans are provided for circulating the air. These are known as Bunker Coils....

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What you are describing is very old technology from almost 60 to 80 years ago. (except for the fans blowing air over the bunker coils:) )

There are certainly more efficient methods, but before I would get too concerned with the refrigeration system design I would recommend developing the requirements first for the potatoes.
(which is what I think you are trying to do;) )

Josip has more experience with this than I do, But my suggestion is to really investiagte the use of a controlled atmosphere (CA) system. This should provide an adequate storage envirnoment, but I would let the governmental bodies specifiy the operating conditions.;)

Once the CA system conditions are known, then you can design the efficient ammonia system to use for maintaining the temperatures in the storage buildings.

What you have said is absolutely correct. Although I except for a couple of ammonia jobs, I have no experience. But when I think in terms of halocarbons, then I realise that the technology being adopted is very old and obselete. In our country we have a number of so called knowledgebale people in ammonia, who call themselves an authority in this. This is what the result is and today the Potato Cold Storages are in complete shambels. Something like this is also in Grape Storage. Last year I got involved as a consultant in one project and made the contractors change a lot of things. This resulted in getting a high quality of grapes. This year one of the Grape Exported firms has given the complete contract to us, and we are introducing a lot of new systems and equipment, and I am sure the end result shall be totally different.

Considering all these, I had approached the forum to people like you, Josip, Fredy and others to guide me, so that at least I can introduce some changes which will benefit the owners and in turn the farmers.

I have been asking for the CA system to be introduced, but it appears that the authorities feel that CA system is only meant for apples. However I am trying to introduce the CA system in Grapes. I am also trying to introduce the CA system in Post Harvest transport. I have contacted Cargo Fresh for this and they have shown their keen interest

I do not thing that the authorities would be interested in the CA system for the Potato Cold Storages at this stage. I will have to bring the change over gradually. First it will be a tough job to introduce a different technology, but after having been in this field for many years, I would like to bring some change and relief to the farmers by introducing the latest technology.

I shall be keenly awaiting your and Josip's reply.

With best wishes,

Well, if you believe the use of CA will not be accepted for some time to extend the storage life, then the only thing you can do is to provide an efficient refrigeration system with...

1) Consistent temperature control
2) Adequate airflow over the product
3) Reasonable humidity control (this is probably the more difficult task)
4) Some redundancy for compressor(s)
5) Part load capacity & efficiency considerations for cooler periods
6) A good control system
7) Water treatment system for the evaporative condensers

The first three items above are related to product life of course. However, these also impact the design of the refrigeration system.

In some respects, you have a simple system. One temperature setpoint, but with variable loads. This would be a natural and good fit for a liquid overfeed system using air-cooling evaporators, or, a chilled water/glycol system.

I can't believe I just said a chilled water/glycol system.:rolleyes:

Thank you US Iceman.

For the refrigeration compressor could we use Vilters reciprocating compressors or Vilters Screw Compressors ? As for the condenser would you suggest a proper evaporative condenser or a Shell & Tube Condenser.

Attaining the temperature and humidity should not be a problem. For the humidity we can install an adiabatic humidifier with water molecules at 3 to 5 microns and evaporator coils could be of Guntner, Helpman, Kuba etc.

Kindly intimate your advice.

With best wishes,

Hi,

If I were selecting the compressors, my selection would be based on the cooling load profile.

If the cooling load is constantly high, a screw compressor can be used as the base load machine. In other words, this screw would run 100% fully loaded all of the time.

If the loads are variable, I would look at a mix of recip. compressors, since they have better part load efficiency.

I also prefer evaporative condenser rather than shell & tube. The evaporative condenser will allow you to operate with lower discharge pressures, since one heat transfer step is eliminated. This is how I view this.

With a water-cooled condenser you have the following heat transfer steps.

1) Refrigerant to water
2) Water to ambient air

With an evaporative condenser both of these steps are combined, since the condenser coil is right in the evaporating water stream. This allows you to operate the system with a lower approach temperature (condensing to entering air wet bulb).

For a low tech system that is easy to work on, very reliable, and simple to understand here is what I would do...

Use recip. compressors with an evaporative condenser and a liquid overfeed system.

For the evaporator coils I would be careful with the fin spacing as this would be an industrial environment. Close fin spacing makes a less expensive coil, but it also makes a good air filter.;)

What are your minimum ambient dry bulb temperatures?

Thank you US Uceman,

The minimum temperature can go down to 4 Deg. C in Winters. The Potato season that is the period these Cold Storages are in operation are 5 to 6 months in the Summers. The rest of the year they are closed.

Once the loading starts, they do not even have the time to let them cool to remove the field heat. The heat load at the time of loading is very high.

Generally there are one chamber or two chambers. Each chamber has a total capacity of storage of potati upto 2000 MT. The approximate dimensions O had mentioned earlier.

I have asked for all the details and once I get it I shall send the same to you.

With best wishes,

Hi,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samarjit Sen

The Potato season that is the period these Cold Storages are in operation are 5 to 6 months in the Summers. The rest of the year they are closed.

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Obviously your client/owner will be investing a considerable sum of money to install the refrigeration systems/buildings/etc.

If the building is only used for potato storage for 5 to 6 months of the year, what is the building used for the during the remaining time?

Would it be economically feasible to have the building constructed so that the facility could be possibly used for cold storage during the remaining time?

If they can make money with this (potato's) for 5 to 6 months, the additional flexibility of using the refrigeration system and building for another "cold" service could potentially increase the return-on-investment to the client/owner.

They win and you look like a star!

Dear USIceman,

What you have said is 100% correct. This is one thing which I have explained not to one but many a cold storage owners. Some how they do not understand it. There are so many vegetable and fruits grown all over the year and these cold storages can easily be utilised round the year. I will again try and explain this particular point.

The main problem in our country is there are a lot many consultants, and unfortunately their knowledge is restricted to a limit which you said the design of 60 years ago. They can not think and would not like to think of the latest technologies. Basically our country is rich in Horticulture and if proper facilities are provided, there could be lot of improvement to the Country as well as to the farmers. With the guidance given by you, I shall once again make an effort and see what the authorities have to say about it.

With best wishes,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samarjit Sen

They can not think and would not like to think of the latest technologies.

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Sometimes it is very difficult to get people to approach a problem from a different viewpoint. Once they have their mind set on a certain bit of facts, it does take a lot of patience to get them to think in new terms or directions.

Good luck with that!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samarjit Sen

The main problem in our country is there are a lot many consultants, and unfortunately their knowledge is restricted to a limit which you said the design of 60 years ago. They can not think and would not like to think of the latest technologies.

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Hi Samarjit,

This is always correct in any part of the world.

The key thing is we work on educating our customers.
We need to have a grasps of their psych, what makes the tick, how do we make them believe us and eventually hire us as consultants.

I would like to share my experience: (hope this wo'nt bore you)

In my so small city in this part of east asia, there are a lot of visiting technical people, usually young guns who are techno literate complete with laptops, projectors, etc. . .
Most are representatives of multinational Refrigeration Company that can present well with the technical side of their product (especially their brand).
In addition, most of these multinationals have a department/group that make presentations (video/powerpoint etc.) for different kind of products.

Most of our customers will be impressed (especially those that are Gen Xers, young techno literate) but there are also that will never be.

Our work is how to convince those were not impressed.
You will always have an advantage:
(1) Your age
(2) You know a lot of your customers
(3) You can convert a lot of technical word/ideas to non technical layman's words/ideas.

For those that were impressed, we need to help them see that if they hire us (as consultants), they will have lower cost because we can complete the project a lot more faster and with better workable system than if he will do it without us.
Of course, we also need to do our presentation like the Gen Xers techno literate refrigeration young guns. ;)

Hope to have share something valuable.

Regards,
WinFredy :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WinFredy

we need to help them see that if they hire us (as consultants), they will have lower cost because we can complete the project a lot more faster and with better workable system than if he will do it without us.

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And... We don't have to guess or make trial attempts to get it right. That's where our age and experience come to benefit us.:cool:

One thing I have seen with these young ones is, they know their products well in most cases, but not very many of them understand complex systems and the interaction between components.

Since putting up this post, I have learnt so much about ammonia and the Cold Storages for Potato from all you young people. I wish we had some people like you in our country. For the last couple of days I am visiting a numaber of units, and am really sad to see the state of affairs. These young engineers as well as old consultants will not try and understand what I try to tell them. My efforts to rectify are still on.

What I do not know I am ashamed to accept and am willing to learn, but for the concerned people it is a matter of shame.

You will laugh if I told you that I was discussing a project with a client, when I told him that for subcooling I propose to install a subcooler. A refrigeration engineer sitting there said, how many coolers do I propose to install other than the compressor. I thought it was better to keep my mouth shut and passed on to other points. This is what is happening.

I do not know what is happening elsewhere, but I really pity people like you, who has still years to work the type of competion that you would be facing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samarjit Sen

A refrigeration engineer sitting there said, how many coolers do I propose to install other than the compressor.

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:eek: :eek: :eek:

That's a problem!

I've ran into this type of "engineer" before too.

The risk is to try to correct the "engineer" in front of the client, or, to not say anything and then have the "engineer" and CLIENT think you don't know what you are talking about.

What the client thinks is more important, but by trying to explain it to the "engineer" you can get into a real argument in front of the client.

I recently had one where the "engineer" had told the client I sized the evap. condenser too small. The problem occurred during a very hot and humid period this last summer. The discharge pressure was getting close to 180 psig (12.4 bar g) during this time and they thought this was too high.

Before the new condenser was installed, they routinely ran discharge pressures up to 205 psig (14.1 bar g) even in moderate weather.

I won't bore you with all of the gory details, but there are some people out there who bear watching!:o

Quote:

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Originally Posted by US Iceman

The risk is to try to correct the "engineer" in front of the client, or, to not say anything and then have the "engineer" and CLIENT think you don't know what you are talking about.

What the client thinks is more important, but by trying to explain it to the "engineer" you can get into a real argument in front of the client.

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I have done this ERROR last year when am the consultant of a cold storage/blast & contact freezing facility with 8 units 120HP open type recip ammonia compressors.
Am sharing this so that it could be a good reminder to everybody (including me) that getting involved in a pissing game with anybody (especially the so called engineers) is not good for the health. :)

I have been very sorry about it. I have told the owner am very sorry after the meeting but still i feel bad until now.
I've never been so humiliated in my life when we (consultant & contractor) have a shouting match in front of the customer (owner+operations guys -engineers+finance guy).

Me (the project consultant) & the so called engineer (the contractor) have started in the wrong footing since the project started some 6 months prior.

If i remember correctly, during the notorious meetings, the so called engineer (electrical engineer?) converted the motor HP to motor KW by multiplying the HP with 0.764. He is now telling everybody that it is the Refrigeration KW capacity. During the meeting, the owner's operation guy (a business finance expert?) have sided with the so called engineer.

I then started drawing PH diagram (in front of the conference table using the white board) to explain what is a motor KW & what is the refrigeration KW. Then we keep on discussing a lot more details about insulated panels, compressors, pumps, U bend @ unit cooler drain lines, loops at the unit cooler pump recirc suction & liquid lines, etc. etc.

He keeps on reminding everybody by saying that he is more experienced in Ammonia (he's doing it since the 80s) and he has been in the Refrigeration industry longer than me.
And, that based on his "EXPERIENCE" it is better to follow the local practice than all those manuals, books, standards, etc. etc.

The finance guy of the owner have even commented: (wordings below may not be 100% complete coz i've been trying to forget that humiliating afternoon but it's almost 90% close to the wordings/idea)

"JUST BECAUSE THE STANDARS ARE MADE BY FOREIGN SOUNDING NAME, DO WE NEED TO FOLLOW THEM?"

Who would not be mad :mad: :mad: :mad: if we (Accountable Professionals with Mechanical Engineering License nos.) being paid by the owner and yet being told by his finance employee that my license & experience is a piece of S***T.

Again time to stop. . . My heart is racing now. . .
Just the thought of it makes me feels sad :(, smile a bit :) then LOL :D .

Hi winfred.dela,

Boy Oh Boy! Do I empathise with you and your meeting. As the saying goes... Been there, Done that! I finally shut up before it turned into a knife fight.:mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winfred.dela

If i remember correctly, during the notorious meetings, the so called engineer (electrical engineer?) converted the motor HP to motor KW by multiplying the HP with 0.764. He is now telling everybody that it is the Refrigeration KW capacity.

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Well, at least he started off on solid ground.:rolleyes:

Quote:

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He keeps on reminding everybody by saying that he is more experienced in Ammonia (he's doing it since the 80s) and he has been in the Refrigeration industry longer than me.

And, that based on his "EXPERIENCE" it is better to follow the local practice than all those manuals, books, standards, etc. etc.

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This is what people resort to when they do not have an answer. They try to pull rank and puff out their chest. Then they try to do whatever they can place doubt in the owners mind.

I don't mind admitting if I don't know the answer, but promise to get back with one ASAP.

Codes and standards are in place for a reason. These usually cause a lot of trouble for the above type of installers and they don't want to follow them.

That was a very good story you shared. I hope others can learn from these types of meetings before they find themselves in one also.;)

Dear Fredy,

Sorry for your experience. But then this sort of things keep happening every day in one form or the other. What US Iceman says is right. By making comments against your statements is nothing but proving the ignorance. I have similar situation a number of times, and the best thing to do is just keep quite and let the fools argue. You will also be coming accross the owners who think that they know all about refrigeration engineering. They are authorities in all engineering fields and these are the people who will always have an " Engineer " to say yes to all they say.

I have now decided that before I take up any contract I am going to have a written agreement with the owners that at no stage there will be any sort of interference from any third parties.

I have just returned from a couple of meetings out station and at one place I had a similar discussion. The party wants me to render consultancy, but I am in no mood to do anything for them. This is the party whom I saved from devastation created by XXXX Refrigeration. The plant was a total mess, the equipments do not match the applications and the design is completely undersized. Somehow XXXX made some changes as per my suggestions, but even today the plant is unable to maintain the desired conditions. Then you start thinking that how ungrateful people could be.

Anyway this is life and I hope the young engineers who may bother to visit this site learns from our experiences.

This is the best Forum in Refrigeration where people can really learn. To me this has been and still is a great experience and I only regret that I had not joined it earlier. There are wonderful and knowledgable people, and I one should not hesitate to refer and learn. I am still in the stage of learning in this forum.

With best wishes,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samarjit Sen

Somehow XXXX made some changes as per my suggestions, but even today the plant is unable to maintain the desired conditions.

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This can backfire on you. If you try to help someone by making suggestions for improvements or modifications (without doing an in-depth investigation) you run the risk of the following:

1. The other people may not understand all of the information and the interactions caused by the changes.
2. If they knew what they were doing, they would have done the project correctly the first time (hopefully:o ).
3. Some minor details always get omitted or taken for granted when making suggestions, and the other party may not be able to logically follow the next step you might assume they would.
4. The other party can tell the owner they followed your suggestions explicitly and nothing worked as you said it would. Now the owner can think you were incorrect, and the first party was better informed. After all, they have probably already told the owner "it will not work".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samarjit Sen

Then you start thinking that how ungrateful people could be.

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Very true. Free advice can work to your disadvantage. First of all, you don't get paid for trying to help everyone out of a mess. Secondly, everyone involved, except you, gets something for nothing.

People have a strange nature to think knowledge is free. if you are not selling a "hard" item, then for some reason they seem to think they are not getting anything for their money, so why should they spend anything in the first place.

You have probably seen this before with doctors and lawyers. Everyone wants free advice for their problems, but when they receive an invoice for "services rendered" complaints start. Almost invariably, the person who receives the invoice will say "what is the invoice for?":(

These types of examples are some of the hardest and most frsutrating to work with.

PS. I would be careful about mentioning names in the forum. Someone may be watching.:eek: I have modified your post accordingly. I hope you understand.

Thank you US Iceman for modifying my post. Yes I do realise that things could be bad. However the referred engineers of the firm had accepted their fault and given in writing. Moreover they requested me to guide them and help them which too I did. They know that still there are mistakes in their design, but due to financial reason have not rectfied them. Even now whenever they get stuck in other projects which they frequently do, they contact me.

The state of affairs in your country and ours as far as the refrigeration is concerned is quite different. You have quite a number of people who have the knowledge which is the other way round here. Further any one practicing in these field has to qualify certain levels in your country, whereas in our country any one can become a refrigeration technician and these are the persons who are dangerous.

Previously I used to give free advice to some people but now I have stopped doing so as I found out what you say a long time ago.

Anyway it is big relief being able to share your joys and sorrows in this trade with some people who understand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samarjit Sen

The state of affairs in your country and ours as far as the refrigeration is concerned is quite different. You have quite a number of people who have the knowledge which is the other way round here.

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Oh, I don't think I would go that far.:D

There are a lot of engineering firms who have been trying to hire people with refrigeration experience to do work in facilities here too. In the last 10 years or so, a lot of firms want to get into the industrial refrigeration market.

Some of the stuff looks like circa 1960 types of systems.

I just had a conversation with one of the manufacturers today, who mentioned someone else was working on the same job I am.

The engineer for the other company has been asking a lot of "how to" questions for very basic details from the manufacturer.

So, after what I have experienced, I don't think there are very many differences between our country's as far as refrigeration is concerned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by US Iceman

As the saying goes... Been there, Done that! I finally shut up before it turned into a knife fight.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by US Iceman

This is what people resort to when they do not have an answer. They try to pull rank and puff out their chest. Then they try to do whatever they can place doubt in the owners mind.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by US Iceman

I don't mind admitting if I don't know the answer, but promise to get back with one ASAP.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by US Iceman

Codes and standards are in place for a reason. These usually cause a lot of trouble for the above type of installers and they don't want to follow them.

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Thank you US Iceman.

I need to copy above advises/quotes to my PDA/cellphone (another gadget to thank for in this very interesting techno age). Words i need to read whenever i find myself sitting into one of those NOTORIOUS meetings. ;)

Again thanks. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winfred.dela

I need to copy above advises/quotes...

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You are quite welcome. Now...If I could only remember my own advice when I sit in one of these meetings.:o :o

The Cold Storages could be made viable if the systems are upgraded, specially the refrigeration compressors replaced with much better and superior make which can be easily imported, and the large chambers are converted into small ones with insulated partitions, so that other than potato, other perishable products could be stored so that the unit is kept in use round the year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by US Iceman

Andy, I'm a little curious about your project. Why did you use a cooling tower instead of an evap. condenser?

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Because I could:D We were tendering for a very large project, with two temperature levels at Chill. About 5mW of THR. We specified the towers to minimise the refrigerant charge and to increase the effeciency (reduced power consumption), it was hard to prove any energy savings, especially because we had two 22kW motors just to circulate the cooling tower water:o The condensing temperature would be slightly lower on cooling tower water, due to the low ambients in the winter and because the design allowed the head pressure to float right down.

This project has not yet be awarded, also includes 1.6mW of blast freezing and a 1200kW cold store. But I would say it is safe to say we won't be in the running, due to cost and politics:( Bit of a pain as I took 1 month out to design our quote.

Kind Regards Andy:)

Kind Regards Andy

That's an expensive job to quote, just for the exercise in designing it. Those sorts of systems you don't find in catalogs!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andy

Because I could:D

But I would say it is safe to say we won't be in the running, due to cost and politics:( Bit of a pain as I took 1 month out to design our quote.

Kind Regards Andy:)

Kind Regards Andy

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Thinking about that job it seems you work for LOVE;)
NHF:D

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...3339#post53339

Best regards, Josip :)

Iceman/Josip:)
I work for a large group of companies, when a job like this comes up in Ireland we cannot fail quote because it may affect future prospects with other companies. Having said that information gathered for this job is still useful, and helped us forge links within our group of companies that will still be there when this job is long forgotten.
I will let you know who gets the job, I suspect it may well be the company I used to work for:) time will tell.

Oh the job had two condensing units on it;) with a 1800kW THR for heating water:D

Kind Regards Andy:)

Dear Josip,

Getting back to my problem which I had posted initially on this thread, US Iceman had suggested that you are more aware of such projects and that also with CA system. Would you be kind enough to guide me and provide me with some technical details as I have to meet the Government authorities for finding a way out and updating the technology. CA system has to be introduced not only for the Potato but also for other agricultural produces.

I have contacted Raffel for their ACUs and Evaporative Condensers for the Ammonia Plants.

With best wishes,

Hi, Samarjit Sen :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samarjit Sen

Dear Josip,

Getting back to my problem which I had posted initially on this thread, US Iceman had suggested that you are more aware of such projects and that also with CA system. Would you be kind enough to guide me and provide me with some technical details as I have to meet the Government authorities for finding a way out and updating the technology. CA system has to be introduced not only for the Potato but also for other agricultural produces.

I have contacted Raffel for their ACUs and Evaporative Condensers for the Ammonia Plants.

With best wishes,

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Please send me PM with your email address for further discussion ;) Hope I can help with some suggestions

Best regards, Josip :)

Hi, Andy :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andy

Iceman/Josip:)
I work for a large group of companies, when a job like this comes up in Ireland we cannot fail quote because it may affect future prospects with other companies. Having said that information gathered for this job is still useful, and helped us forge links within our group of companies that will still be there when this job is long forgotten.
I will let you know who gets the job, I suspect it may well be the company I used to work for:) time will tell.

Oh the job had two condensing units on it;) with a 1800kW THR for heating water:D

Kind Regards Andy:)

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Agree with you Andy, it was not useless job. On another hand there is no warranty to get each job where you make quotation.

Best regards, Josip :)