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I was doing some a/c maintenance on a large site this week when an inquisitive guy in a suit came over and asked if I was suitably qualified to handle refrigerants (which of course I am). He went on to say that it was now a legal requirement to have membership of REFCOM in order to carry out the work. I'm aware of REFCOM, but is it now the law?
I think that he is playing with the wrong end of the stick.
His company may wish everyone to be members but I don't think it is a legal requirement yet; certainly not with my firm and they are pretty hot on that sort of thing.
Relax....
Not law as far as I am aware but it may form part of the requirements for FGas in some small way particularly the tracking side of Refcom
Ian
Don't be fooled by this prat, refcom are a an organisation that charges its members to register, they have no legal standing and as long as you keep records of refrigerant usage that can be inspected your ok.
We have so many letters informing us we need to register with them its becoming a crime to open letters with the franking mark of REFCOM.
Its all about money and don't part with any until you or we have too.
Refcom is currently only a voluntary scheme for companies working in RAC. It is mandatory for individuals to have 2078/CITB if they are working on systems but it is not mandatory for companies to join REFCOM.
The F gas regs do require companies to be registered at some point in the future but UK Government havent yet decided how this will work or who will do it. Its still in discussion at a European level.
As stated above REFCOM is for companies. Engineers can if they wish register with ACRIB but this again is not mandatory. However registration will come at some time for all engineers & companies in the EU.
we have this regerstration in australia its called ARCTICK which we require to buy and handle refrigerants, this is goverment backed now and costs us 100 aussie dollers over 2 years. this is a bloody rip off ,just another fee for the poor old fridgy to bare.
Guru,Quote:
Originally Posted by s/market guru
I agree that $100 may seem a little excessive. But at least it's mandatory. In the long run that can only benifit those that have the certification required to register. I presume there is a required level of compitence?
Unlike the U.K. where sadly although those of us within the industry have to have "Safe Handling Certificates".With optional membership of ACRIB. (£40.00 for "*****s" + £40.00 for Ammonia)
I can only guess that the cost of the Safe Handling Certificates ( 1 for ***** 1 for Ammonia) run into hundreds of pounds each. My company payed for them!
Then find, as has been pointed out before that Auto refrigerant can be purchased over the counter at certain retail stores. At least B&Q have stopped offering air con units for self install!
Also (and this is where some of the guys may correct me) I believe that within the latest pile of EU Paperwork. It states that Experiance alone will no longer satisfy the requirements needed to determine.
wether a "person" is Competant.
Very Scary when you consider some of the best Engineers I have worked with. Have not got Formal Qualifications.
So never mind you have been doing the job for years! This piece of paper says because you have not got the correct piece of paper! YOU ARE NOT SUFFICENTLY QUALIFIED!!
WATCH OUT GUYS ITS ON THE WAY
Although in fairness you have a level to work from to set a standard that is required.
I suppose that what I am trying to say is in UK. It's all a bit of a mess but still expencive!
Not law, but companies signing up must demonstrate "best practice". Pipework brazing certification is not yet mandatory but needed for REFCOM membership.
If you are REFCOM and keeping to their code then you are unlikely to get any bother from Health & Safety Executive as regards following acceptable codes of practice.
It is up to companies if they want to join but customers may want REFCOM memebrship as a quality assurance scheme and as such is maybe better than some other trade associations.
Doubtless, REFCOM would like to set themselves up like CORGI do for the UK gas trades, and reap the benefits....
Steve
Steve
Grizzly i can understand your point of view on licensing and i agree everyone should be licensed to stop unskilled workers doing our jobs ,My argument is 17 years ago after completing college we were told we have a full refrigerant licenses ,that would last forever ,then the authoritys that be ,turn around and make us pay a continual fee in the years ahead. not only that we now have to upgrade our electrical licences every 3 years something else that was told would last forever. whens the bull**** going to stop
Guess we are all having the same problems then SMG. I assume it will stop when "we" can't be squezed anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by s/market guru
In fairness the way these topics are discussed on the forum proves that awairness within the Industry Prevails.
Have you noticed how much money is being poored into "Enviromental Issues".
Or as my mate puts it. If you wanted to study the mating habits of red squirrels in the forest. You would be hard pushed to find funding.
But if you wanted to study the effects of "global warming" on the mating habits of red squirrels, no problem!
Pooh made a brilliant point about the refrigerants, we are scrapping are easier to prevent leakage than the ones we are replacing them with.
Perhaps if we continue to discuss and inform more people will become "enlightened".
Hopefully common sence oneday will prevail!
Personnaly I think the future lies in training.
Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ons/icon14.gif
Not wishing to chuck a spanner in the works folks, there is talk of updating the refrigerant handling qualifications, this will mean that all the people like me who have the City & Guilds 2078 will need to take another qualification to stay within the law. From my point of veiw in the training sector it will be a licence to print money however from the fridge engineer part of me says when will it end.
Yes we do need qualifications for the engineers working in the trade so that eventually we will be perceived as a proffession rather than a trade however the governments need to carry some of the costs for the training.
Due to all being busy people we all gripe and moan about these changes but how many of us actually do anything to inform the government as to what is really going on.
How many of you in the UK know what Summit Skills are and what they do? I attend the Summit Skills RAC Interest Group meetings which are the conduit through which industry speaks to the law makers, at most meetings there are only a couple or three representatives from industry and the rest of us are from training.
My point is "You can shout as load as you want but if the wrong people hear you what is the point".
If anybody wants to know more drop me a PM or if there is interest I will post a new thread with the info.
Ian
How do we obtain a voice Pooh, coz as you say it's the way forward
Grizzly
ps do you know what is coming or hasn't it been decided yet?
Grizzly
have an idea whats coming, drop me a PM with a phone number and I will give you a call to discuss.
Ian
More info on the arctick in australia. The license only allows you to work with refrigerants. It's another big fee to actually purchase them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly
Secondly it's not run by the refrigeration industry, but a bunch of motor mechanics and electricians. One of the first things they tried to do is make it illegal for a fridgey to work on a car air con :rolleyes:
Thirdly they give licences to anyone willing to do their short course, meaning they have enabled plumbers, electricians and labourers to install air cons. And a lot of them can't do a flare to save their lives. This arctick licencing scheme allowing unqualified people to install is responsible for thousands of kg of refrigerants escaping to the atmosphere. The last example I saw only 6 hours ago, panasonic split icing up. Suction flare was not deburred at all, and was way too small. No fridgey would do a flare like that, we learn that in first year. By installers licenced by artick have probably never seen a deburrer and definitely don't use them.
Pooh I will drop you a line shortly.
Paul_H Sorry to read what you are saying I thought you guys were way ahead of us!
You do realise there is a vested interest in the Industry. Not to let us become a profession.
Paul Keep plugging away WE will get there on day.
Prehaps one day Webram's forum will mean somthing more than just a voice for fridgies.
My family think I am sad being on a fridge forum, bit like a busmans holiday to them.
Personally as an Engineer I find it facinating!!!
Grizzly
Pooh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooh
Would you be refering to the recent article in one of the Trade Journals. Saying, Simply put that UK Engineers in the eyes of our European Colleagues. Are not sufficiently qualified in comparision to them.
Therfore to have a E.U. Standard.
We the Brits (don't know wether they include Ireland in this?)
Will have to reach a higher level of training urgo!
Qaulified to a higher level.
Is it me or are the French and Germans siding against us again?
Grizzly???
What needs pushing is getting "new" EU countries up to the basic level before pushing any higher. With road safety, the EU is pushing for stricter tests, longer training schedules, etc, but some EU countries have not even made the starting point of a proper bike or car test yet!Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly
From experience, German and some Scandinavian engineers are more highly qualified but they seem to work in a narrower range. Saying that, I've watched a fridge tech in Sweden check out my girlfriends walk-in freezer and fail to find a fault that I know is there.
The only thing stopping me doing the job is the rules are drawn so tight it is impossible for me to obtain or dispose of refrigerant even though I have a supposedly EU standard fridge handling certificate. So, yes, they are protecting their own jobs by a paperwork wall and expect those rules to apply to others to level the playing field (which will never happen 'cos they will still have some kind of national "extra" to keep "Johnny EU Foreigner" out.
I did a C&G Mech Eng Technicians course p\time over 5 years, but I can apply engineering principles to boilers, fridge, factory process, factory packing, or wherever. I don't feel a "stranger" to any machine. I just see nuts, bolts, bearings, chains, valves etc arranged differently to do a different job but obeying Newtons Law or whatever
I feel that training I received works on the basis that the laws founded by Newton, Boyle, Charles and the rest have not changed and if you see it that way, you don't see "different" systems, just the same laws used in a different way to achieve a different end result.
The continental way seems to be if it is different, it seems you must be trained, certified, re-assessed after X years, etc. So in a way, yes, the vested interests of certain EU groups are ranged against us.
Higher level? No, I doubt it. The issue is time. I can prove that I can operate at NVQ 2 or 3, if I spend a big enough chunk of money and can arrange for an assessor to be around to observe me doing things.
I was quoted £1800 and a time span of 18 months to get through an NVQ 3 in industrial refrigeration. 18 months is a long time in industry now. My last job changed so fast that if I had set out on the NVQ, I would not have been able to complete due to change of company focus. Can you imagine how long it would take all us "unqualified" fridge techs to get an NVQ 3????
Problem is, of course, workload is variable, reactive, manning so pared down there is no spare capacity to cover you if you need to set up an assessor visit or go to tech school to do the technical certificate. There is little slack in the system compared to other countries who cover for a years paternity leave, etc, etc.
The current system also seems biased against adult learners, with preference going to young adults (apparently regardless of their aptitude or their ability to get related work). This could be further compounded by a shortage of fridge techs meaning a shortage of people with real world experience to teach or assess.
What it needs is a government that listens to the people on the ground, is less bothered with appeasing the EU and one that stops moving goalposts in reaction to one or another perceived "problem" and provides for people to operate training to satisfy learners and not some "system".
Steve
Listen Guys as a member of Refcom I can assure you that this whole issue is now going to end up like CORGI ( a moneymaking excercise ) backed by some numpties in Gov who dont know any better. I agree that there needs to be regulation of the gases however there is always someone out there who will flout the Law and therefore this is why 'Bodies' are required to be set up to monitor them. From experience I can tell you that when you have to send an engineer away for 'refresher' courses every 3 years ( as in CORGI ) this is proof of money generation for the unproductive.I also have CORGI registration and the overall costs after initial engineer qualification runs at over £1.5K per annum per engineer when you take into consideration the lost charge out time.
I could discuss further if anyone is interested.
These bodies never seem to do anything though. There is a gas explosion and THEN the (busy)bodies get involved. I agree from the experience of my brother that it is a money-making exercise in many ways. Yet, because of the cowboys, it invariably happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by yinmorrison
Do we see CORGI "police" out and about? No, of course not. The innocent pay for the policing of the guilty and feckless.
In my view now, legislation created just creates another layer of criminal activity. Use traffic cameras to catch offenders? Easy, offenders don't register vehicles and \ or use false plates. and so on.
Ultimately, you squeeze peoples incomes and raise their costs, you end up with temptations to cut corners.
Business wants "a light regulatory touch" yet howls when they get stuffed by someone not following the "rules". Business A complains about activities of Business B, regulatory authorities tend to see it as mud throwing. Consumer gets low prices, they are happy. It goes wrong, they howl. Regulator steps in and knocks cowboys and less profitable businesses out, consumer moans about lack of choice.
What we have is a lack of joined up thinking, a lack of will for ALL sides to work together instead of protecting their turf, and of course, a mess of half-baked plans to struggle through.
Question? How does it work in the US, home of capitalism and, supposedly, a lighter regulatatory regime?
Steve
The thing we have on the Gas industry is that plumbers don't sell gas, so the best way we can regulate this is by banning the sale of refrigerant to non registered 'card carrying' people -or companies.
Now that 'card' may be where the stumbling block is but this simple measure will remove 95% of the 'cowboys' from the Uk market within a matter of weeks. Ebay will try to pick up the slack but the odd phone call will soon put a stop to that.
Any wholesaler will need to provide a register of who it has sold refrigerant and amount to on a daily basis to a national register. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Jobs a good'en, sorted.