Breeam Points

[SELLER]

Can anyone help?
I am trying to locate an automatic pump down/ evacuation unit. This unit must start automatically if a leak is detected on a chiller. The chiller would be either internal or external mounted.
Again the pump down unit must remove the refrigerant to a locally positioned gas storage tank/bottle.
This system is required to satisfy BREEAM.

thanks in advance.

[Argus]

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Some (not all) very large chillers used to be equipped with a utility vessel, attached to a smaller compressor - generally used for service evacuation. As I recall these were in good old CFC days on centrifugal machines using high pressure refrigerants as opposed to R11. This automatic evacuation procedure is a relatively new approach to an old device.

All this was in the days long before BREEAM was even thought of (BREEAM is Building Research Establishment Environmental Assessment Method, for those outside the UK).

You don’t mention what refrigerant you are using.

If your chiller is not equipped with a pump-out kit, or has one available from the manufacturer as an accessory, (as your question implies), you’ll have to sit down and design one and build it yourself from parts and its capacity will need to be matched to that of your system. They don’t usually sit on the self waiting for a customer.

Bear in mind that the pump-down equipment itself is liable to leakage, plus I guess that you will be in PED territory with this extra kit, so all your new work will need to be assessed within the scope of the PED.

Siting such equipment outside a building may also fall within the building control laws and you will also have to consider the simplications of storage of chemicals.

An interresting project - let us know how you progress.

Good luck.

.

[SELLER]

Thanks Argus,

I too can remember the older systems.
The main reason for asking the question on automatic evacuation/pump down, is hopfully someone some where has done it.
The refrigerants will be R407a R410a and R134a.
Your statement re large centrif units, now begs the question on modern screw or scroll chillers with mutiple fridge circuits is.

Does BREEAM indicate you need an automatic unit on each refrigeration circuit?

BREEAM seems a good idea for developers and building owners but there seems there has not been a lot of practicalities applied to the assesment methods!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pooh]

Seller
looking at the implications of what you are looking for I do not really see the point unless you have refrigerant charges in excess of 150kg and then by the time the system has removed the refrigerant in the event of a decent sized leak you will have lost a mojority of it to atmosphere anyway.
Surely it would be better to run chillers with split systems so the charge per circuit is less so if there is a leak you only lose a minimal amount of refrigerant. As per the IOR guidlines.

This idea takes the phrase "Belt and Braces" to the extreme.

Ian

[SELLER]

Ian,

Thanks for your imput.
I also think what BREEAM are asking for in order to gain points is daft to put it bluntly.
On the chillers I am associated with the refrigerant charge per circuit ranges from 50Kg to Max 90Kg.

To me one of the most daftest criteria is to have a leak detection system which will activate the automatic pump down. This detection system applies to chillers located on the roof. Imagine the cost of such a system that will detect refrigerant in basically what is open atmosphere in changing wind and weather conditions.

What would happen if the detector sensed refrigerant from maybe a small split system who's condenser happened to be located on the same roof?
It would shut the chiller down, pump out the refrigerant. Engineer would end up on site trying to find a non exsistant leak on the chiller.
More money, money money.

[Argus]

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This may well be impractical as you describe.
Utility vessels would normally be installed where a much larger volume of refrigerant is present and are, as I said, for a different purpose. I'd expect to see 500kg plus in play, not 50 kg.

I don’t believe that you should combine all systems using the same refrigerant into a common vessel – it will lead to inequalities in distributing the charge and oil retention when they are used.

Can you refer me to the BREEAM criteria for this?
I think it comers under pollution control and it may be that the assessor is unfamiliar with this technology and is making it up on the hoof.

It is not statutory obligation, as far as I am aware, though the F Gas regulations that require regular, documented checks are, and this will extend to any utility vessels that you fit.

.

[SELLER]

Argus,

I don't know which BREEAM assessment the pump down and leak detection section fall into. May be if there there is a BREEAM assessor out there he or she could let us know.
( I cant put the BREEAM web site up as I have not put 15 or more messages.Please goggle it if you need it)
It must be on their pages somewhere or when you do their seminars.

[Argus]

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.......... let's get this straight.

The BREEAM assessor (probably an academic in a beard and Jesus boots) has seen an air cooled water chiller package that sits outside in the blowing wind on a roof and just in case the compressor, or condenser, receiver, or any other pipes of the chiller happens to leak, he wants to install another compressor, condenser and a receiver acting as a utility vessel beside it with a safety relief valve in the top and hope that it doesn’t leak when it captures the remaining refrigerant from this hypothetical leak……..

Meanwhile, twice a year you have to check it all for leaks by law, anyway.

Brilliant!

You can probably pm me with the BREEAM details if you have any, but at this rate, you’ll soon rack up the 15 posts. I have the BRE site, but there’s not much info in there.

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[Lowrider]

Is this burocratie or what? (hope I spelled it correct)

As far as I know, the only way they can demand a automatic pump down if there's over a 1000 kg of charge. Not a system of 50 or even 90 kg!

But correct me if i'm wrong!

[Pooh]

Just looked at the Breeam web site and from what I see it is just another money making scam. They are just a group of assessors that go round charging people for looking at their building designs and telling them how GREEN they are.

Ian

[frank]

I see it is just another money making scam. They are just a group of assessors that go round charging people for looking at their building designs and telling them how GREEN they are.

Ian
Just like the crew I've just had to register with. SafeContractor.com.
It appears that they've been round to one of my clients with whom I've worked for over 15 years, and sold them the idea that, if they contact all of their customers and get them to register and then be assessed re: H & S, it would relieve the onus on said client if anything went wrong.

Obviously it's at my cost, so now I have to fill in a load of H & S forms, spend unproductive hours copying forms, submitting all sorts of who knows what, all at my cost, just so that I can continue working for my client as I always have done.

The only diffence now it seems is that, should something untoward happen, it's DEFINATELY my fault 'cos the paperwork ses so :mad:

have a look and see what you think. Does it make us safer? http://www.safecontractor.com/

[taz24]

Obviously it's at my cost, so now I have to fill in a load of H & S forms, spend unproductive hours copying forms, submitting all sorts of who knows what, all at my cost, just so that I can continue working for my client as I always have done.

The only diffence now it seems is that, should something untoward happen, it's DEFINATELY my fault 'cos the paperwork ses so :mad:



How big a customer is he, I'd be tempted to tell him to stuff it.

Money talks though and the reality is that when the customer shouts jump all we can do is "shout how high".:o

taz.