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koy
24-08-2007, 04:15 PM
Hi to all,

Ok last year I was called out to a newly built villa with a, Mitsubishi 4*1 multi split with 4 wall mounted indoor units fitted 12 months earlyer by a Unqualified incompetent installer.

The owner never had the units working and the builder will not excpept responsibility even though it was his choice of installer. The system, pipe work, cables, ect, had been put in place as the building was going up so all are burred in the walls, ect and are now inaccessible.

Upon checking the units over I found that the low pressure switch stopped the unit from working due to low refrigerant in the system, I pressure tested the system with, oxigen free nitrogen, and found every indoor unit had cracked braze on the coil in the same place on every unit, I rang Mitsubishi to see if I could get the units replaced for free as they were still under warranty, they soon replied to me saying the units at the address where void as Mitsubishi had lots of problems with the installer working for the builder and all the properties on that street were now void after Mitsubishi had sent out a engineer with the installer to see how he was commissioning the units, they said he used a full bottle of nitrogen and exceded the max pressure of the system causing damage, So I replaced all the indoor units and pressure tested again and found the pressure had not dropped within about 5 days I used soapy water on the outdoor unit and found nothing and refilled the system with R410a liquid.

The owner dose not live at the propertie as its just a holiday home so the A\C dosen't get used all that much, but about 4 months after he used the system during the winter and had no problems, now in the summer the unit has lost its charge, so once again I pressure tested the system and found no leak I made sure all caps are inplace and every thing is tite and re charged the system again, three weeks down the line it has lost its charge again and I still havent resolved the problem, I have now put, UV Trace Dye, in the system as I think its possible that the leak must occur at temp, I have recharged the system and hopefully will find the problem when I go back after it has lost its charge.

If the leak is occuring in the wall somewhere not accessable and without redoing all the pipe work as it would have to be surface mounted on the exterior of the propertie and the location of the indoor units would have to be changed to exterior walls to avoide pipe work being, trunked\boxed-in, and then all the redecorating I was wondering if any of you guys had used or have any knolage of a product called, Stop Leak Plus, and if you can advise me please, I have know knolage of this produced whether it is safe or not, other than what I have read on their web site. They make it sound the bee's knee's but they are trying to sell it.

Here's the site:

h**p://***.gwrauto.com/AC%20Stop%20Leak%201.htm


:eek: I may have writen a little to much and could have made it alot shorter I know, if you have read all this then thanks and after all that I hope you can help

Lowrider
24-08-2007, 09:33 PM
My experience with these kinds of "solve it all's" is that they don't fix the problem, but go and sit in the expansion devices and/or orifices and thus creating an other problem.

Since the refrigirant only comes out after it has run, my gues is, it's in the high pressure parts.

Have seen the flare's tight on ofn, but leaking whist running!

Another thing to try and do, although slightly illegal, is colse the valves on the outdoor, after reclaiming what is left and add just a little of R22 and then pressurize the outdoor unit with ofn to the max pressure of the unit. Then take your leakseeker and try all joints, especially the condensor! Take of the caps of the valves and see if they leak, since you stated the installer wasn't bothered by any knowledge, it's likely he brazed the couplings on the pipes whilst on the valves and this damages the nylon in the valves.

Good luck finding the leak!

Brian_UK
24-08-2007, 11:10 PM
Next time when you replace all the caps and having checked the valves mark each item with some clear nail varnish or similar.

You may have a disgruntled installer or neighbour who is letting the gas out when you're not looking.

fridge doctor
25-08-2007, 07:28 AM
If the installer has over-pressurised the system using ofn and caused the evaps to leak, there is every possibility that the condenser may have suffered a sinilar fate since the tubing is of similar - dare I say poor - quality. The tubing in the wall will be a continuous run so forget about it, think of the weakest spots, a hairline crack in a condenser tube expanding under temperature/pressure? Also look very closely at the discharge exit from the compressor. If it is the usual type the exit is from the top, straight up and then a 'U' bend back down before entering the reversing valve etc. I had one recently where the seam of the tube had given up right on the 'U' bend where it is under the max pressure/temp/turbulence. I completely missed it on a first leak test... I empathise with you, jobs like this give no satisfaction at all.

Good luck

marc5180
25-08-2007, 10:23 PM
I agree, id concentrate on the condensor. We have had so many leaks that we have left under pressure for days and dont seem to lose pressure but every few months they go off on low pressure due to loss of refrigerant. I personally dont think the dye is that good, I always find the leak with the leak sniffer and leak spray. Try the bottom of the reversing valve and at the back of the coil there is an (aluminum?) strip that runs from the top of the coil to the bottom that the fan is mounted to and when the fan vibrates iv had it a few times where it cuts into the tubing in the coil and also down theside of the coil where it loops through the condensor.
Hope you find the leak, keep us posted
Marc

koy
26-08-2007, 01:33 PM
Thanks so far everyone I will post back after my next returne to the villa from hell. By reading the posts here I think that it is safe to say, you all do not like to use products like, Stop Leak Plus, which I can easly understand why, I supose anything that can block a hole from the inside can easly block other small areas/parts, ect, aswell. If I really cant find the leak I may just risk it? as its starting to cost the guy and i'v been back there a few time now it also kinda gets embarassing, although the guy dose understand, I will give him the choise after giving him all facts, if I cant resolve the problem myself on the next visit, or if you guys insist it shouldn't be used. The product says it dosen't clog the system on their web page I know you cant beleve all they say it must build up in some places as it fixs small leaks, but to what extent?

fridge doctor
26-08-2007, 03:10 PM
Koy,
I am not totally against the idea of a leak sealant. After all if you are faced with complete replacement you and the customer don't have a lot to lose. I have been looking at a different product than the one which you started the thread with, which has apparently been around in the USA for some time and maybe our friends over there can shed some light on the it.? Basically the manufacturer is adamant that it causes no harm and cannot clog internal components in the system because and only because the product hardens when it hits moisture (fresh air). It apparently has a history of success in the underground gas lines field.
Have a look at the site and see what you make of it
http://www.qbproducts.com/appliance-parts-division/site-comp/parts/topsellers/new-product-12.pdf

The MG Pony
26-08-2007, 09:14 PM
I all ways use a benifit to loss ratio, if it works he may score a good number of cooling seasones from it, if it doesn't work he needs to replace the system, but if you don't use it he still needs to replace system!

So the way I see it he wins either way, either it works and last to the point it had to be replaced any way, or he replaces it now. Really all your doing is attempting to buy time to ward off the invetible replacement of the system! So worth it either way you look at it. Besides good way to experiment with a new product and see how it works in the real feild!

Lowrider
26-08-2007, 09:18 PM
So worth it either way you look at it. Besides good way to experiment with a new product and see how it works in the real feild!

He's got a good point there!

Do let us know how it turned out!!!

koy
26-08-2007, 10:15 PM
I have read recently from a secondary source:

"In the units that have been tested, we are noticing a 10% drop in Amperage draw. That means a savings in electric bills on the biggest energy hogs we have in this world... A/C systems !"

BigJon3475
27-08-2007, 12:31 AM
The problem I have with stop leak is this:


If you have a leak then you have non condensibles in the system correct?

Even if you pull a low micron reading then hurry up and add the stop leak you still have non condensibles in the system correct?


The stop leak reacts with the non condensibles to clog the leak so what's it doing in the system when it meets up with non condensibles.


Basically what I am saying is if there is a leak there is no way to add the stop leak to a system that is clean and clear of non condensibles. Which pretty much guarantees junk in the circuit.

BigJon3475
27-08-2007, 12:35 AM
http://efficientcomfort.net/Literature.html


15th one down from the top.

Karl Hofmann
27-08-2007, 09:08 AM
Question... If this is the kind of stuff that sets on contact with moisture then would it not set in any of your recovery equipment/ hoses or gauges should air / moisture find its way in say when you replace hoses of leave the protective caps off your recovery machine?....Just a thought

fridge doctor
27-08-2007, 12:56 PM
If I read the blurb correctly, the manufacturer makes the claim that the product is no use at all if it is used as a leak sealer in situations which would and should be repaired by conventional methods. So bit like trying to bridge weld across a 50mm hole or similar, it apparently is only good for sealing the minutest of holes/splits/seals, where all else fails in terms of finding it, and where the leak is known to be small. Anything bigger and the sealer just comes straight out. So I am thinking that the possibility of it causing damage to equipment by trying to seal up flares and hoses is a non starter

koy
27-08-2007, 04:50 PM
Ok here is two snippits from:

h**p://***.gwrauto.com/AC%20Stop%20Leak%201.htm

1:
For those of you wondering,
GWR Stop Leak Plus is not activated by air or moisture!

Please note that if a sealer is in a pressurized can,
you don't want to use it. Period! They all set by moisture and that means they can clog a system and recycling machines.

2:
What happens when I recycle the refrigerant?

Super Stop Leak Plus is removed from the A/C system with the refrigerant during standard recycling procedures. It separates from the refrigerant during evacuation and joins the reclaimed oil. Since it flows, is an oil and does not harden in a system, it will not harm or clog recycling machines during transitions.

I'm still non the wiser of this product I know their are a few puducts on the market simmiler but this one claims to be diffrent from the others, I know that people have probaly tried other products before and probably had bad experiances, but I think thew people may have tried, GWR Stop Leak Plus, and not enougth is known about weather it really dose what they say.
:confused:

The MG Pony
27-08-2007, 07:10 PM
Recover is a pain, you want to use a special preseperater that can be cleaned, they go cheap on ebay.

BigJon3475
28-08-2007, 12:03 AM
Ok here is two snippits from:

h**p://***.gwrauto.com/AC%20Stop%20Leak%201.htm

1:
For those of you wondering,
GWR Stop Leak Plus is not activated by air or moisture!

Please note that if a sealer is in a pressurized can,
you don't want to use it. Period! They all set by moisture and that means they can clog a system and recycling machines.

2:
What happens when I recycle the refrigerant?

Super Stop Leak Plus is removed from the A/C system with the refrigerant during standard recycling procedures. It separates from the refrigerant during evacuation and joins the reclaimed oil. Since it flows, is an oil and does not harden in a system, it will not harm or clog recycling machines during transitions.

I'm still non the wiser of this product I know their are a few puducts on the market simmiler but this one claims to be diffrent from the others, I know that people have probaly tried other products before and probably had bad experiances, but I think thew people may have tried, GWR Stop Leak Plus, and not enougth is known about weather it really dose what they say.
:confused:



No need to yell. We are all here to help. I am getting older but a 48 font isn't needed.

So if it isn't activated by air or moisture then it must be already activated in which case I would find it useless.


I still say anything besides ref. and oil in the ref. circuit is a no no. I mean why else do we pull <200 microns on a system?

koy
28-08-2007, 01:53 PM
BigJon3475,
Sorry if it looks like I'm shouting really I'm not I just cut and pasted it from their site, thats how it is on their site.

afeebeacea
30-08-2007, 10:25 AM
Anything that you add to the system will only cause problems further down the track. Had a system recently taht worked fine for six months then over night lost its charge. After pressurising with ofn could not find a leak(continuious run no welds) increased pressure to max operating pressure and found a leak in the pipe. Builders had fired a brad through it six months earlier then after operating for some time it loosened and released the gas.