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ralph feria
02-11-2002, 01:13 PM
WE ARE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE WORKED WITH R290 OR CARE50 REFRIGERANTS. WE ARE MANUFACTURERS OF 3,4,AND 5 TON AIR COOLED CHILLERS AND ARE DESIGNING A NEW LINE. YOUR INPUTS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

RALPH FERIA, MULTIAQUA INC.

Derek
13-11-2002, 02:33 PM
Really depends what you want as a lot of us have some HC experience (in my case up to about 6kw) as part of the CFC and HCFC phase out 'muddle' over the last few years.

I'd suggest you cantact Cool Concerns who did the training for Calor Gas on handling Care Products.

Apart from knowing Jane from Prestcold days I worked with them on several HC conversion and monitoring jobs. Roger did some excellent work for me in China some years back.

Contact Roger Maltby or Jane Gartshore tel/fax 01635 578489
E-mail roger@coolconcerns.co.uk

Alternativity drop me a line on what you are looking for in terms of information or contacts and I can have a look.

Derek

ralph feria
30-11-2002, 04:44 PM
DEAR DEREK,
THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY. I AM IN CONTACT WITH CALOR GAS AS YOU HAVE SUGGESTED. I HAVE ALL THE COMPONENTS SELECTED EXCEPT FOR THE COMPRESSOR. I AM LEANING TOWARD A COPELAND OPEN DRIVE SCROLL. THE PROBLEM IS THE COMPRESSOR IS NOT LISTED/CERTIFIED FOR USE WITH HC REFRIGERANTS. DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE THAT IS PRODUCING OR MARKETING ANY COMPRESSORS COMPATIBLE WITH HC IN THE 6 TO 15KW RANGE? HERE IN THE U.S. THEY ARE AVAILABLE FROM VILTER BUT ONLY STARTING AT 25RT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP!!

RALPH FERIA

Derek
03-12-2002, 10:08 PM
Seems the problem is where you live....

The US restrictions on HC use outside of Industrial applications mean that most commercial firms have not gone through the route.

Danfoss can supply small hermetics and Bitzer have a quote 'palette' of HC versions but mostly on special application.

The current UK standards prevent HC use for comfort cooling in all but small systems but that 'may' change with the EN 378 safety standard revision (2004/5). For that reason we don't see a lot of mid range stuff on the shelf.

I'd suggest you contact European Agencies who may be able / wllling to arrange the relevant certifications may sound daft for Copeland but it might work. If not try Bitzer like Swagelok fittings you have to pay for perfection.

If all else fails drop me a mail and I will ask around.

ralph feria
06-12-2002, 03:40 AM
DEAR DEREK,
THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY. I CAN UNDERSTAND RESISTANCE TO HAVING POTENTIALLY FLAMMABLE COMPOUNDS IN OR CIRCULATING THROUGH OCCUPIED SPACES. I DONT UNDERSTAND HAVING HC REFRIGERANTS IN EQUIPMENT SUCH AS OURS THAT SITS IN THE YARD AND PRODUCES COLD OR HOT WATER THAT IS THEN CIRCULATED TO THE STRUCTURE.
CAN YOU DIRECT ME TO WHERE I MIGHT OBTAIN A COPY OF EN- 378 REV.2005/5 AS YOU MENTIONED. ALSO CAN YOU ELABORATE ON WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT BITZER HC COMPRESSOR CERTIFICATIONS.

I HAVE FOUND A LAB HERE AS YOU SUGGESTED THAT WILL TAKE ANY COMPRESSOR I GIVE THEM AND CERTIFY IT FOR USE WITH R290. THAT IS CERTIFY IT ONLY FOR USE IN MY UNIT.
WHILE THIS IS O.K. I WOULD RATHER WORK WITH A COMPRESSOR MANUFACTURER THAT APPROVES OF HC USE THAN OPERATE IN THE GRAY AREAS OF SAFETY CERTIFICATION.

I HAD A TALK WITH MANEUROP COMPRESSORS. THEY ARE WAITING ON SOME RULE CHANGES (MAYBE EN378) BEFORE THEY PROCEED WITH RELEASE OF THEIR HC COMPATIBLE SCROLL LINE.
RALPH

Andy
06-12-2002, 07:19 PM
Hi,:)
try their web site.http://www.bitzer.de
Regards. Andy.

ralph feria
07-12-2002, 02:49 AM
DEAR ANDY,
I FOUND INFORMATION ON BITZER SEMIHERMETIC COMPATIBILITY WITH R290. I HAVE WRITTEN TO THEM FOR INFORMATION ON APPROVED MODELS. HOPEFULLY THEY WILL HAVE SOME MODELS IN THE 6 TO 16 KW RANGE. A SCROLL IS PREFERRED BUT AN EFFICIENT SEMIHERMETIC COULD BE USED. I WILL POST BITZERS REPLY ON THIS SITE.

THANK YOU,
RALPH FERIA

Andy
07-12-2002, 01:10 PM
Hi, Ralph:)
Bitzer have a scroll compressor (looks like a copeland re-badged, but don't say I said so). Bitzer are quite forward thinking on the use of alternative refrigerants (see Bitzer Refrigerant Report, which can be downloaded), If anyone is approving scrolls for Hc use it will be them.
They also do an octal semi range, that is probabaly what has been approved for HC use.
Regards. Andy.

ralph feria
08-12-2002, 02:11 PM
DEAR ANDY,
WE ARE STILL WAITING ON BITZER REPLY. THIS MAY SOUND FUNNY BUT COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT AN "OCTAL" IS. ON THIS SIDE OF THE OCEAN WE DONT USE THIS TERMINOLOGY.

THANKS, RALPH

Andy
08-12-2002, 11:58 PM
Hi, Ralph:)
Octal is just the name Bitzer designates for a range of Semi compressors introduced a few years ago for 404a supermarket work as I recall. Octal is a new design from their more traditional compressors.
Regards. Andy.

jg/oz
19-02-2004, 08:03 PM
Friends,
What actually happened after 9/12/2002
any more reactions from Ralph,
or is the project in a too " hard basket"
jg/oz

ralph feria
23-02-2004, 02:47 PM
DEAR JG,
WE ARE NOT ABLE TO FIND ANY COMPRESSORS IN THE 36 TO 60,000 BTU RANGE THAT HAS SAFETY CERTIFICATION (U.L. CSA) FOR USE WITH R290 OR R600. SURE WE CAN BUILD THE EQUIPMENT BUT CANNOT MARKET IT. IF THERE IS AN ACCIDENT WE CANNOT DEMONSTRATE THAT WE DID EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO ENSURE SAFETY OF THE EQUIPMENT. THIS WOULD LEAVE US EXPOSED TO TREMENDOUS LIABILITY. IF YOU KNOW OF ANY MANUFACTURER THAT IS ADVANCING WITH HC CONPRESSORS PLEASE LET ME KNOW.

RALPH

baker
24-02-2004, 03:53 AM
The February edition of the Airah magazine Ecolibrium has a reprint of a paper given at an IIR conference titled Refigeration systems in supermarkets with propane and CO2 - energy consumption and economy.

The following quote is from the safety paragraph:

The propane system is built in a ventilated box, where the concentration under all circumstances is maintained below 25% of the lower explosion limit. The zone inside the box is classified a zone 2 with requirements on minimum IP 54 for the electrical equipment and the equipment has intrinsic safety circuits.