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Steve
11-03-2001, 09:45 PM
COWBOYS

Our industry is full of them,

Plumbers
Electricians
Soft drink venders
Farmers
Postmen
Fruit Machine engineers

I know a number of engineers that have started in different trades and moved into fridge because they can earn more money...!

What do they bring to the industry..? you cannot "pick it up on the job" like most say. Otherwise why do we bother with a 4 year apprenticeship.

Lost for words.....!

dan wong
29-04-2001, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Steve
COWBOYS

Our industry is full of them,

What do they bring to the industry..? you cannot "pick it up on the job" like most say. Otherwise why do we bother with a 4 year apprenticeship.

Lost for words.....!


I respectfull disagree, I am an example of "pick it up at the job" I brought a book call "modern refrigeration and air condition" by Althouse/turnquist/bracciano At a garage sale for $10.00. read it, follow old timmer for a few months, here I is!!!, I dare say, technically I am better than most local contractor and tech.
Anybody wants to change their career - can!!! requirements are: atitude, appitude, strong desire, at the right time and right place.
I venture to say better than 70% of the people I came across are at different career than they started.

WebRam
29-04-2001, 09:11 PM
I agree Dan, The difference is that people who have the get up and go and are willing to train themselves will always be better that those who just do the job.

Abe
29-04-2001, 10:18 PM
Lets face it, some of the best enginners we have may not have paper qualifications, no master degrees or PHD's, they couldnt handle another bout in the classroom , when they left school, that was it, but Ill tell you they are the salt of our industry, they can tell you things all your paper qualifications will never teach you in a lifetime.


Abe

Steve
30-04-2001, 08:28 AM
Fruit Machine engineers

The reason I put that in is beacause it is where I started my career. Electronic servicing of PCB'S......!

The point of my post is there are a lot of engineers who migrate into our industry who bring nothing to it apart from the desire to earn, not intrested in learning, training or the desire to improve themselves.

There may be a place for them in the industry, they however bring nothing of value to it. It is important to make the distinction between those who want to learn and thse who do not.

Abe
30-04-2001, 08:38 PM
PR is not a strength for our industry.

Overall, I agree, there is no place in our industry for the "cowboy" the one who one to come in, knows the basics, and is out to rip....

Brian_UK
30-04-2001, 10:28 PM
I came into this trade having been a commissioning engineer (HVAC) for over 20 years

One thing which I think is needed by anyone within any 'trade' or 'technical trade' is the ability to think and think calmly.

Common sense attached to a technical and learning mind may not solve all problems but will certainly start moving in the right direction. Not being afraid to ask for help is something that no man should be unable or unwilling to do.

Brian

dan wong
02-05-2001, 03:28 PM
All of you have excellent points. One point that is missing is "demand and supply". In Phoenix, Arizona Large portion of the general public shop for low price consequenly actract many low skill level tradsman and ranking amatures, because of the demand for low $$$$, low level of skill will always be part of the picture!!!. Additionally, Many companies like to hire low skill level people - lower wage. I venture to guess, better than 70% of jobs goes to low $$$ people. regardless of their skill level.
Until the demand for QUALITY goes up, low skill level people will ALWAYS be part of this industries. (caution: low $$$ and low skill are usually related, but not always true, lotsa exceptions, generally speaking, it is true.}
Above mention is true for Phoenix metropolitian area, your particular area maybe different.
On the brighter side, Thank to their screw up, When I come after them, I really shine!!!! Large portion of my business are as result of other peoples mistake.

[Edited by dan wong on 02-05-2001 at 03:46 PM]

Gary
02-05-2001, 06:32 PM
As I often tell my customers, "This industry offers high quality and low price. Which one do you want?"

Brian_UK
02-05-2001, 11:44 PM
I think it also starts from the top..(UK anyway).

1. Send out tender documents
2. State price must be qualified
3. Open tenders submitted
4. Ignore qualifications
5. Select lowest price
6. Wonder why job doesn't work properly
7. Refuse to pay contractor etc etc

Ask yourself, why do we bother?
Answer, we love this trade ;)

dan wong
03-05-2001, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by Gary
As I often tell my customers, "This industry offers high quality and low price. Which one do you want?"

Does it really work for you???? look good on paper!!. I found many customers hear the words, knod their head, agreed with what you say, but the job still goes to the low $$$$$. True in Arizona, your area maybe different or IS IT?

Stuart
09-07-2002, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Steve
COWBOYS

Our industry is full of them,

Plumbers
Electricians
Soft drink venders
Farmers
Postmen
Fruit Machine engineers

I know a number of engineers that have started in different trades and moved into fridge because they can earn more money...!

What do they bring to the industry..? you cannot "pick it up on the job" like most say. Otherwise why do we bother with a 4 year apprenticeship.

Lost for words.....!

:mad:

I agree with Dan

And I suggest that Steve reads my post about the lack of engineers in the refrigeration trade.
I have spent a great deal of time & money to train as an AC engineer.

All too often there is this attitude form employers of someone from another trade as not good enough for us....Yes it is a very complex trade & does need a good training background if one is to service the equipement.
But to install it is not rocket science......
A operative can be trained to install a basic AC system in a minimum amount of time PROVIDED they have a relavent background.

The fact that people move into the trade for the money is I think unfair to tradesmen who wish to better themselves & move up the ladder.

Here's an Idea Why not train these people. That will avoid the so-called cowboys.

I also think that there is a lack of training colleges in the UK, especially the North of England.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm having a rant but this touched a nerve with me.

Stuart

reggie
12-07-2002, 11:50 AM
Engineers migrate into the industry with nothing other than the desire to earn?

Do me a favour and wake up Steve. Would you come to work for nothing? Would you stay at your present firm if you could earn more money around the corner? Does your boss pay you the minimum amount until you hand your notice in and then suddenly finds extra cash in his budget?
Get a dictionary and look up capitalism, not cowboy, its present in every human being not industry.
Good luck to anyone not time served who had the innovation to jump ship and educate themselves. Lord knows its hard enough to get any company to invest in training you.

Robearbam
12-07-2002, 05:17 PM
Unfortuantely I don't have the luxury to constantly work on AC. It's seasonal here in NJ and I wear many hats at this printing plant where chillers are the only thing that can't go down in the winter. AC is traumatic for me in the spring at startup, sooo much to do. I thank the forum users for information and input. Also grateful to the people that service this stuff daily. The experience they share with me is priceless.

Stuart
15-07-2002, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Steve

Fruit Machine engineers


The reason I put that in is beacause it is where I started my career. Electronic servicing of PCB'S......!


It would seem that those in glass houses do indeed sometimes throw stones.........................

By your own admission Steve you appear to be a "Cowboy"

Even you had to start somewhere did you?

subzero*psia
16-08-2002, 12:39 PM
Well I started out as a simple country boy... ;)

I was and still am pretty much considered a "jack of all trades"... I've been from digging ditches, oil rigs and gas/oil pipeline construction to soft seated engineering jobs. But... what makes me the happiest is working with my hands... seeing a project come together... no matter what it is.

I still work as an electrician, plumber, pipefitter, installer, HVAC/R ... whatever it takes... I rarely turn down a job unless it is something I have no experience in or it is in conflict with legal laws and statutes etc. I have an interesting job possiblility now.... cooling multiple battery rack systems that use 002 wire cables... EXTREME hydraulic "dancing cars"... they had one catch fire (electrical) while it was dancing in a contest.... :p The problem is the system must be completely secure and able to literally take a pounding and NOT break. Weight isn't much of an issue but size is. Nothing is allowed to break or leak, if it does... the vehicle is disqualified (another car broke in half... literally). Maybe impossible... at the least difficult.

Gotta love a cowboy! YEEHAW!!:cool:

aj
23-08-2002, 09:12 PM
these days it seems that most of the service problems that i come across are electrical. so if you have a good background in electronics then picking up the fridge side is not that difficult.(if you have the willing)

subzero*psia
27-08-2002, 03:14 AM
I have a degree in HVAC/R too.... heheheh! Just seemed like the right thing to do... it was the only thing I saw that interested me and I knew it had a real future.

Problem is... since I am not with all my buddies... I don't get nearly as deeply involved anymore... just do the job and get it overwith type thing. SAD... I think I have forgotten alot... and the real pisser is I don't seem to care as much anymore. :(

tony_rich
02-09-2002, 06:30 PM
We do work for a g/c in my area they put the systems in then pay us to check them well here some thins we found.
They pis test a new 5 ton split w/ water.
they installed 2 txv's oen in front of the other .
But they were smart to pay somone eles to check there work.:confused:

Stuart
03-09-2002, 07:01 PM
:eek: Unfortunately Tony there are certain people that shouldn't be let loose with a set of tools.

These are the people who will in the end cause themselves or somebody else injury or at least serious problems & hardships.You have my sympathy.:confused:

Latte
14-07-2003, 01:19 AM
Some of the best engineers i know have never been near a college since leaving school, however i do realise that training is now becoming an all important part of todays world.
As i have said in the Training forum, we need more training centres, its ok for people to harp on about city & guilds ect but there are no local centres around this way to do it.

DaBit
14-07-2003, 03:40 PM
'Do you want low $$$ or high quality'? Hahaha.

When we call the AC/R service to check up the airconditioning, a guy comes. Pricing is per hour, and sometimes a knowledgeable person comes, and sometimes a first class ******* comes. The last guy I tried to persuade to give/sell me some stuff out of his van didn't even know what a MOP type TEV was, and tried to sell me a R22 valve while I needed an R134a one. He said: 'just turn the screw (superheat adj) until it works'.

Haha, asshole. I wisely kept my mouth shut. Argueing with those guys doesn't work since they are 'the expert' and we are 'the dumb ignorant customer'.

I'm not clean either; the same thing happens in my trade: electronics. Sometimes I'm put on a job as 'the expert' where the customer has to pay a lot for. And it happened that I only had a few training days on the subject, often years ago. Then, I don't consider myself as 'expert', and I complain to my boss, which says: 'You'll probably do fine, and if not, we shall see'. But I usually succeed in making the customer believe that the job really needs that much time to complete. I am too honest to feel comfortable on those jobs.

A rating system for technicians wouldn't be a bad idea. Good work would increase your rating, bad work would decrease your rating. Then a customer could see on somebody's rating how capable a person is to do the job. But such a system is too hard and costly to introduce.

edit: Wow. Auto-censoring of words. b- a- s- t- a- r- d written without stripes: *******.

piston broke
25-06-2005, 09:28 AM
[QUOTE=Brian_UK]I think it also starts from the top..(UK anyway).

1. Send out tender documents
2. State price must be qualified
3. Open tenders submitted
4. Ignore qualifications
5. Select lowest price
6. Wonder why job doesn't work properly
7. Refuse to pay contractor etc etc
QUOTE]

i couldn't agree more