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angryk
12-10-2002, 11:08 PM
How long are interim refrigerants going to be around for? How much longer are compressor manufacturers going to produce r12 equipment when there is no r12? interim or permanent? comments anybody?

Dan
13-10-2002, 06:13 AM
Never knew that "interim" was an official classification. I assume you are talking about the blends developed to replace R12, R502, R11, etc in equipment that is still functioning. I would expect them to remain available as long as R22 remains available.

Manufacturers haven't designed equipment for R12 for a decade.

angryk
17-10-2002, 03:01 AM
maybe not designed, but still manufactured and sold.

Argus
25-10-2002, 03:25 PM
This is an interesting discussion.

How long HCFCs are around is debatable and it depends where you are in the world. For example; the Montreal Protocol is implemented in the European Union by a directly acting Regulation, 2037 / 2000 EC. It applies to Ozone Depleting (chlorinated) gasses only - therefore HFC and the HFC blends are outside its scope. This Regulation has the weight of community law - it is mandatory.

In the Regulation, the production, sale and use of CFCs are banned. This means R12, R11, R502, R 500 etc. There are exact definitions of the terms used in the regulation, especially the word 'use' and they need to be understood. It also extends to all the other fully halogenated substances and compounds.

The rules on HCFC are more complex. The 'use' of HCFCs is partially banned. It is no longer legal to sell and install any new HCFC equipment, with the exception of reverse cycle heat pumps. They in turn are phased out at the end of 2003. It will be possible to use new HCFC for service until 2010, thereafter it must be recycled, until it is banned completely in 2015. There is also a clause with an obligation to review these dates before 2008.
You can read all about it, including the text of the regulation as a pdf:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/access/ozone.htm
The see what's happening with HCFC use and phase-out, read article 5.

So, that's the situation in the EC.

It gets worse. The regulation is an EC law. Member states can also implement their own national laws, but they cannot be any less 'severe' than the regulation, but frequently are more so.
For example, Sweden banned HCFC over 5 years ago. It is no longer used in Germany. Flare joints that I also mentioned are banned in Holland (NOT mechanical joints, just flares. A serious outbreak of common sense to be applauded from the Dutch). There may be other countries with similar restrictions that I am not aware of.

Interim? Well, if HFC's are interim, catch this:

The Kyoto Protocol seeks to curb the emissions of a basic collection of 6 greenhouse gases. Amongst these are HFC's. The Protocol is ratified in the EC and has produced a number of studies on Climate Change, one of which (ECCP) recommended legislation on anthropogenic industrial gases. We are now staring at a proposal to limit emissions of HFC's by law. No problem there, except that these things can easily turn into bans in this part of the world.

Not to be outdone, The Danes have banned the use and sale of HFCs for certain applications, although there are some derogations.
Austria is proposing something similar, Norway and Switzerland are thinking taxing it at point of sale. Now Germany is wading in with its own version courtesy of the new administration there.

Interim? Probably. But what's on the horizon?
________
Honda RC162 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_RC162)

superheat
25-10-2002, 06:02 PM
Much easier in the USA. We can still use CFC. They do not make anymore or import anymore. It is expensive.
We will make HCFC equipment untill 2010. They are phasing down HCFC production on an accellerated scale. HCFC production will stop completely in 2020. We will still be able to buy reclaimed HCFCs after 2020 untill the price goes so high that you do not want use it anymore.