Global Warming 101

[US Iceman]

Here is an interesting article that provides data and history without hysterics or attempts to sell or create anything.

It might be right, or it might be wrong... but it is more analytical than some of the common horror stories.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/global_warming_and_solar_radia_1.html

[expat]

Thanks for that Icey. Nice to hear a more reposed and thought out view instead of the current knee-jerk opinions.

In anycase if you dispell the myth of the monster in the closet they'll just tell you it's under the bed now:(

[US Iceman]

In any case if you dispel the myth of the monster in the closet they'll just tell you it's under the bed now:(


:D:D

That's very true.

I prefer to do my own thinking instead of letting someone else tell me what to believe. When someone (pushing this agenda) has to shout to be heard, that is a cry of desperation.;)

[The MG Pony]

One artical says little.

You have to look at maney articals, the truth is never from one side.

So keep looking in the end yes the earth cools and warms, but look at the base line, it has been moving up where it should not be moving up!

[Lowrider]

I have many more reports like this one!

If I find the time and get round to putting the scanner on my computer I'll post some links!

(At the moment I'm still living in a caravan while rebuilding/ restoring my house)

[expat]

I understand from what I see on television and read in the press that current global warming is because of mankind.

So, I understand this to be true!

I was just wondering why global warming has already happened X number of times in the history of the planet before the advent of mankind..., and can only conclude that either we have been here before or that the television is wrong.

Any thoughts?

[Lowrider]

MY OPINION is that the press and television are wrong!

I have many studies that have done research in, amongst many other things, CO2 levels in ice which confirm what's stated in this article.

I helped on some of these tests and know what I measured!

[US Iceman]

I have many more reports like this one!

If I find the time and get round to putting the scanner on my computer I'll post some links!


That would be absolutely great and I think others need to be informed on this subject.

The way I see this is the ice cores offer the BEST evidence of what has transpired on a historical basis for both pre-industrial revolution and the current periods.

Look at weather forecasting as an example... They have trouble getting this accurate within 1 or 2 weeks into the future. How in the world can you expect to predict 50 years out with any accuracy?

While I think there are some things mankind can do to help this to a certain degree, and that we do contribute to the overall, panic and hysteria are not solid proof of anything except a willingness to believe whatever is said. My opinion only.;)

Good discussion getting started here. Let's keep going and hopefully we can keep it civil.:D

[expat]

(At the moment I'm still living in a caravan while rebuilding/ restoring my house)

I did something along these lines. We had three children (one handicapped) and it was a very character building experience, but at the age where you don't need it.

Hang in there, things will get better and you will feel in Heaven afterwards,...it just takes time.

[The MG Pony]

I understand from what I see on television and read in the press that current global warming is because of mankind.

So, I understand this to be true!

I was just wondering why global warming has already happened X number of times in the history of the planet before the advent of mankind..., and can only conclude that either we have been here before or that the television is wrong.

Any thoughts?

again yes it happens cyclicaly how ever we have accelerated it and shifted the base line!

[US Iceman]

...how ever we have accelerated it and shifted the base line!


I have question... What's the baseline? And what is it based on?

Data can be manipulated to show just about anything the presenter wants to. It is too easy to adjust data or to use various dependencies to draw conclusions.

I don't want to see biased data, I want to see the raw data and the historical trends.

Somewhere I have seen some of the ice core data that showed much higher greenhouse gas levels that occurred somewhere around 10,000 years ago. That was certainly before the age of industrialization.

Now are we going to blame the limited population at that time for this problem also? There is something going on in cycles which impacts all of this.

And when a similar event of worse magnitude occurs before the advent of a population explosion, I find it hard to accept "we" caused it.

Are we contributors to the problem... Sure!

But we have to understand the driving mechanisms before we implement curative processes.

If we used the same logic that is being used now for global warming when we work on refrigeration systems we would be replacing compressors and systems because they don't hold temperatures, instead of finding the root cause.:o

[momo]

An answer to someone I know who does not believe in global warming:
To asume that because one gets snow in sunbaked parts of the US (eg New Mexico) goes against the theory that there is global warming...
The release of cold water from ice is a TRANSIENT form of cooling transported around the world in the seas (the ice when gone is gone!) then the sea/air temperature will rise again, consequences:
-Increased evaporation of sea water
-Saturation of water in air: heavy unpredictable rains
-Change of water rain distribution patterns
-Change of weather and algorithms used for forecasting etc etc
-Change of winds and dry areas with no plants/trees for soil protection... land erosion...
Cooling and Heating is a good business to be in now:D:D:D

[Gary]

As far as I'm concerned, the environmentalists have destroyed the credibility of the scientific community. Even if I believed the theories as presented, I would object to the solutions offered.

I am willing to accept reasonable solutions to theoretical problems, but environmentalists are anything but reasonable. Their solution to everything is outrageous taxes coupled with massive micromanagement. They are thieves and dictators, one and all.

[The MG Pony]

Base line was generaly astablished with Ice core samples.
Global warming is more from the environmentalist jihadists and the pollititions, correct term is accelerated climate change.

http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/06-12-07-03.all.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1206_041206_global_warming.html

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/documents/4418_MythsvFacts_05.pdf

As for solutions, it's trading one problem for another but Solid waste is easier to contain then a gas, I say more nuclear plants distributed, that and make all houses with a couple solar cells on them! The combined effect would be tons of power with a small but hefty chunk of renewable mixed in!

If you feel like going indepth some well informed people are here: http://www.thedebatehour.com/ftopic-396-days0-orderasc-0.html

6 Trillion tons of CO2 and it has to go some where, it takes a massive volcanic eruption to get that amount normally, unlike us though, volcanoes don't go off year round ;)

Kmisho from the other forum made a good observation.

I don't think the question "have we caused a problem with global warming?" is even the right question.

There are 2 basic sides, we have caused a problem and we better start fixing it pronto, or we have not caused a problem.

The have-not-caused-a-problem camp can further be divided into 2 parts: we cannot cause a problem or we can but haven't yet.

The only one of these for which there is no hope is the we-cannot-cause-a-problem camp. Unless I miss my guess, no one here is in this camp.

For everyone else, I would think there would be little debate about minimizng our impact on the atmosphere. Either we have caused a problem or we can cause a problem if we do certain things, some of which we are doing. In both cases it behooves us to take protective steps.

Another syllogism: If we do nothing we are sure to fail or we are casting our lot with chance. If we do something we may succeed or fail, but at least we might succeed.

[The MG Pony]

An answer to someone I know who does not believe in global warming:
To asume that because one gets snow in sunbaked parts of the US (eg New Mexico) goes against the theory that there is global warming...
The release of cold water from ice is a TRANSIENT form of cooling transported around the world in the seas (the ice when gone is gone!) then the sea/air temperature will rise again, consequences:
-Increased evaporation of sea water
-Saturation of water in air: heavy unpredictable rains
-Change of water rain distribution patterns
-Change of weather and algorithms used for forecasting etc etc
-Change of winds and dry areas with no plants/trees for soil protection... land erosion...
Cooling and Heating is a good business to be in now:D:D:D


I supose it'll be neat watching the clas 90 hurricans hell look what a tiny class 5 does! It's gonna get pwned by whats to come.

[US Iceman]

...it takes a massive volcanic eruption to get that amount normally, unlike us though, volcanoes don't go off year round.


I think there were some examples somewhere that showed right before the sudden temperature increases, volcano eruptions were noted by sediment accumulation in the ice core samples.

Gary said it best...



I am willing to accept reasonable solutions to theoretical problems,...


A lot of these scare tactics used such as the sea level will rise 25 ft, etc is similar to the sky is falling syndrome. It is simply a scare static for someone to get money or obtain some control.

I have said this before... I'm willing to do something reasonable, but I'll be damned if I am going to ride a bicycle because some crack-head politician or worse yet a movie star says we should while they fly around in private jets and say they have done their part by buying carbon offsets.

Small changes add up, and I'm a proponent of moving cautiously before we do something stupid.

[Lowrider]

Just last week an environmental protection agency, as they are actually named, prevented the reconstruction of one the mayor roads in Holland going from 2 to 3 lanes.

The reason thay gave was that the increase in lanes would increase co2 emissions there.
Now there's at least 12 km of traffic jam daily in either direction.

In my opinion a car moving at, say 100km/h, produces less CO2 than a car pulling away, stopping, and again pulling away! An engine running at a steady rpm produces less CO2 than one that's throttled again and again!

But hey, they have a very big mouth and know how to scare the politicians! And so for the next years to come there will be traffic jams there and getting bigger by the year!!

[US Iceman]

But hey, they have a very big mouth and know how to scare the politicians! And so for the next years to come there will be traffic jams there and getting bigger by the year!!


Another example of trying to do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Politicians now how to listen.:rolleyes: The group that makes the most noise is who they listen too.

[US Iceman]

Some interesting links...

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/nieuws/wetenschap/540607?wt.bron=homeArt2

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070801175711.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6926597.stm

http://www.junkscience.com/ByTheJunkman/20070802.html

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/vassilaros/s_520391.html

http://www.freedom.org/news/200708/01/gielow.phtml?p=1

my favorite.:D
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=7d95e996-4593-4188-ae60-75c0086aa776&k=12315

Enjoy. There are additional links, but I can't take it anymore.:rolleyes:

[The MG Pony]

The national post? you're citing them! ?

They are our equivalent to the weekly world news, or at least I consider them that bad!

[US Iceman]

I did not screen any of these, they were simply links I found.


They can't be any worse than Al Gore!:eek:

[US Iceman]

I went looking for some information today on trying to correlate solar flares to the global warming tirade of late. Here are some interesting results...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread221608/pg1

http://www.globalwarminglies.com/Sun.html

http://www.discerningtoday.org/members/Analyses/climato3.htm

http://www.sovereignty.net/p/clim/wc98-1web.htm

http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm?aid=544

http://biocab.org/Global_Warming.html

http://www.sciencebits.com/CO2orSolar

The list goes on and on... Some very interesting material and informaiton in this and others.

Happy reading and form your own conclusions. :cool: