PDA

View Full Version : Should i really have to pay for their mistake



liamroys
08-06-2007, 11:58 AM
Hi all, this is a moral dilema that any advice would be appreciated. here's the story........

I have a Daikin split in our IT server room, this is a backup unit for the main tosh twins that normally do the work.

The Daikin gained a fault, so I called out our contracted engineers (no names just yet) and they came round to take a look.

After checking it, the problem turned out to be a knackered fan motor. so a new one was ordered.

So far so good.

the engineer came back to fit the motor, and then came to tell me that the PCB is the real fault and that he had fitted the new motor, but it had blown due to the PCB fault.

The air con firm are now trying to charge me for the the blown motor that was only fitted in the unit for ten minutes before it blew.:mad:

so i've not only got a bill for that but i'm going to have to pay again for another motor!!! i obviously don't mind paying for the new PCB and the extra labour

But should i really be paying for 2 motors at £200 each?

What do you guys think.

LRAC
08-06-2007, 12:21 PM
You should not have to pay for the 2nd fan motor.
regards Lrac

taz24
08-06-2007, 12:25 PM
Hi all, this is a moral dilema that any advice would be appreciated. here's the story........




But should i really be paying for 2 motors at £200 each?

What do you guys think.


They are liable for the motor not you.
They should replace the second motor for free.

taz.

Argus
08-06-2007, 12:25 PM
.

This is a public forum, so please don’t publish any persons or company names relating to your dispute here.

You should only expect to pay the agreed rate for the job once. I suggest that you decide on a rate for the job that is fair to you, bearing in mind what they would have charged you without any hitches with the fan motor and if you believe you are being overcharged, it’s best to list your concerns politely in a letter to the head honcho of the service company, telling him what you are prepared to pay and see what he says.


.

nh3wizard
08-06-2007, 03:50 PM
The way I see it they diagnosed the problem incorrectly, so it should fall back on them.

US Iceman
08-06-2007, 04:03 PM
...it’s best to list your concerns politely in a letter to the head honcho of the service company, telling him what you are prepared to pay and see what he says.


This is really good advice. This should clearly not antagonize him but rather help to put him in a better frame of mind for the negotiation.

Eng Student
08-06-2007, 06:20 PM
I agree, I would see about recontracting and not paying the other company. Maybe take the problem up to management.

Abe
08-06-2007, 06:22 PM
Hi all, this is a moral dilema that any advice would be appreciated. here's the story........

I have a Daikin split in our IT server room, this is a backup unit for the main tosh twins that normally do the work.

The Daikin gained a fault, so I called out our contracted engineers (no names just yet) and they came round to take a look.

After checking it, the problem turned out to be a knackered fan motor. so a new one was ordered.

So far so good.

the engineer came back to fit the motor, and then came to tell me that the PCB is the real fault and that he had fitted the new motor, but it had blown due to the PCB fault.

The air con firm are now trying to charge me for the the blown motor that was only fitted in the unit for ten minutes before it blew.:mad:

so i've not only got a bill for that but i'm going to have to pay again for another motor!!! i obviously don't mind paying for the new PCB and the extra labour

But should i really be paying for 2 motors at £200 each?

What do you guys think.


I have tried to look up any cases of a scenario such as yours and have come up with nothing as yet.

In simple legal sense you had a contract with a company to repair or diagnose your air conditioner.

The diagnosis was to replace a fan motor, based on their prognosis.

This was duly ordered and fitted.

The question the court will ask is this:

Was the contractor competent in doing this type of work
and
was the right diagnosis made ?

the contractor may argue that it would not have been possible to confirm that the fault lay with a pcb , without first having replaced a motor.

This is a subjective test.
An expert can only confirm if this defence is correct

If it is true, and it would have been impossible for the contractor to have reached a correct prognosis without first having ordered a replacement fan motor, then the court will decide in favour of the contractor.

On the other hand, the claimant can claim, that the contractor ought to have known , or tested the pcb before hand in ascertaining what the real problem was.

It is not uncommon in the industry when engineers come across a faulty fan motor, or a non functioning one to assume it is faulty and simply replace it.

in most cases, you bang in a new one and it works.

Unless..........this particular system has a design aspect which operates in a manner that when the pcb fails, it results in the fan motor malfunctioning.

Has the manufacturer proferred technical information to its purchases pointing out with clarity that in cases where the fan motor is found to be non functioning.......check the functionality of the pcb.

evidence in the form of technical buletins would have to be provided in this case, if such exists.

The best recourse is always to avoid litigation , but open negotiation. As a member has pointed out , write to the contractor and explain your dilemma.

If matters should not be resolved amicably, then try some form of mediation or arbitration. An expert arbitrator with technical ability can soon arrive at a suitable solution .

The Court will of course appoint its own Expert Witness should the matter go there.

The Viking
08-06-2007, 07:35 PM
Hang on now, before we go all legal and everything.

What's the likely scenario?
On modern A/C units it is quite common to have to replace one part at a time in order to find the fault, no discussion about that I hope.

BUT, what fault on the PCB would blow the fan motor?

I have worked on quite a few Daikin units and replaced both motors and PCBs along the way but I have never seen a PCB take a motor out.
The opposite YES, frequently. Quite often when a motor fails the PCB goes as well.

So, isn't the likely scenario that FM1 blew and trashed the PCB, FM2 was fitted but did not run due to the faulty PCB and should work after a new PCB been fitted? Alternatively, FM2 was faulty even before it was fitted, in which case Daikin would replace it FOC.

Anybody who disagrees?

cool#9
08-06-2007, 08:20 PM
Hi
We usually have this problem on any kind of inverter system between compressor or outdoor fan and the power module but never between indoor fan and pcb...it's quite difficult to test an inverter part alone or a motor suplied by triac. Sometimes it's written in the service manual.
Anyway we try to accept the faulty diagnosis and replace the parts, in this case i'd prefer a faulty indoor fan (!) than a couple compressor/power module.
rgds
cool#9

Pol
08-06-2007, 10:00 PM
totally agree on that; viking.
sounds to me like a bit of a rip-off.

chillin out
08-06-2007, 10:19 PM
BUT, what fault on the PCB would blow the fan motor?
Spot on.

In any case, PCB should have been tested before motor was fitted. It's not hard to test for live and neutrals in the correct place, it even tells you on one of the panels what each pin is for.

Did the contractor prove to the customer that the fan was working before he fitted it ?!?!? ...... NO. So how do we know it was not faulty to begin with?

Chillin:):)

Contactor
08-06-2007, 11:40 PM
Simple - keep the customer and learn.

LRAC
09-06-2007, 07:13 AM
I have a feeling on this one that the engineer took the classic course of action that being presumption, and we know what that means(presumption the mother of all F*** ups).

Engineer attends site see fans not running hey the fan motors faulty, replaces still does not run oh C**P its the board and iv'e just bought that fan motor.
Never mind i'll do the customer for a PCB and get another fan motor just in case its blown.

Kind regards
Lrac

cool#9
09-06-2007, 09:08 AM
Simple - keep the customer and learn.
I agree it's the best way, like this everyone go ahead.

Barry Hawkes
09-06-2007, 11:31 AM
Hi all, this is a moral dilema that any advice would be appreciated. here's the story........

I have a Daikin split in our IT server room, this is a backup unit for the main tosh twins that normally do the work.

The Daikin gained a fault, so I called out our contracted engineers (no names just yet) and they came round to take a look.

After checking it, the problem turned out to be a knackered fan motor. so a new one was ordered.

So far so good.

the engineer came back to fit the motor, and then came to tell me that the PCB is the real fault and that he had fitted the new motor, but it had blown due to the PCB fault.

The air con firm are now trying to charge me for the the blown motor that was only fitted in the unit for ten minutes before it blew.:mad:

so i've not only got a bill for that but i'm going to have to pay again for another motor!!! i obviously don't mind paying for the new PCB and the extra labour

But should i really be paying for 2 motors at £200 each?

What do you guys think.

The new motor fitted should be warranty from Daikin (DOA), It is only fair they charge for 1 new motor and board only as they should have diagnosed the pcb fault first.

monkey spanners
09-06-2007, 12:02 PM
Seems a bit like how garages work, its the glow plugs, oh, its still not right. Must be an injector, oh that hasn't fixed it. I know its the ecu (and another an injector just to be sure) No you can't have it back until you have paid, we've got your keys HA HA

liamroys
09-06-2007, 01:07 PM
Thanks to all for the Advice, I've dropped the Air con firm an E-mail asking for clarification on what actually caused the problems/malfunctions. and i've asked them whether we can come to some agreement on the parts charge.

I'll let you know the outcome of it

Makeit go Right
09-06-2007, 10:20 PM
Thanks to all for the Advice, I've dropped the Air con firm an E-mail asking for clarification on what actually caused the problems/malfunctions. and i've asked them whether we can come to some agreement on the parts charge.

How old is the installation? Daikin have a 3-year parts warranty, which means if a PCB or Fan Motor dies in that time Daikin will replace the parts and offer the repair contractor some compensation for the labour involved. That labour money is rarely adequate, but even so is important when adding up the bill.

However, if the equipment is older than 3 years - as you were.

Assuming no benefit available from the manufacturer's warranty, I think the garage analagy is valid, as is the blaming of a fauly diagnosis. I would suggest you reconsider the minimum (you want) costs and max (they want) costs, pick something reasonable in between that would resolve it for both parties and have a phone conversation with one of the managers. Letters and emails never seem to get a good outcome, whereas an eye to eye is normally the best thing. A phone call is the nearest second best.

chillin out
10-06-2007, 03:12 PM
I think that when the new motor was fitted without first testing the rest of the equipment, the new motor could be classed as a 'testing tool'.


Chillin:):)

liamroys
14-06-2007, 08:07 AM
Thanks for the advice on this one guys, i got talking with them and we have agreed for a 50/50 split on the price of the second motor.

they weren't willing to accept that it was their fault, they still blamed the PCB and said they weren't to know there was a fault until they fitted the motor and ran the unit which i understand.

sadly this has weakened my confidence in them which up until now was very high.:(

Argus
14-06-2007, 09:33 AM
......... we have agreed for a 50/50 split on the price of the second motor.



Well, that's a compromise. Still don't see why you have to pay for any of the motor at all....




they still blamed the PCB and said they weren't to know there was a fault until they fitted the motor and ran the unit which i understand.




Aren't these guys supposed to know what they are doing?
They are working on the sacrificial diagnosis principle - keep adding parts until it works.




sadly this has weakened my confidence in them which up until now was very high.:(


A Pyrrhic victory for them if you find another company.

Their most valuable asset as a company is the ability to generate repeat business.

A customer who doesn't come back is no use to anyone except an undertaker.

.

liamroys
16-06-2007, 08:20 AM
Cheers Argus, i have a back up firm for repair of units who will be getting calls from now on, i get the feeling that i'd end up paying for the rest of the motor via another job.

there is a mainteneance/service contract in place for this year but i can get anyone i like to repair things

Abe
16-06-2007, 09:20 AM
Cheers Argus, i have a back up firm for repair of units who will be getting calls from now on, i get the feeling that i'd end up paying for the rest of the motor via another job.

there is a mainteneance/service contract in place for this year but i can get anyone i like to repair things

It would be intresting to see the contents of the maintenance contract and see what it covers, with liabilities.

As essentially its a contract, the drafting skills are vitally important from a commercial law perspective.

If youre willing to send me a virgin copy without the " confidential " aspects Id be happy to look over it

Argus
16-06-2007, 09:31 AM
.

Go for it!

Abe does repairs too:D

Karl Hofmann
17-06-2007, 01:31 AM
.

Go for it!

Abe does repairs too:D

I'm sure that there is the makings of a TV series there, A mild mannered legal eagle who also fixes fridges.:D

The crime fighter thing is so nineteen eighties.:rolleyes:

Errm, just how would a duff PCB kill a simple fan motor? If it meant keeping a good customers business, then I would be inclined to stick the motor back in the box and send it back to the supplier as DOA. Come to think of it how do we know that the motor wasn't DOA?

liamroys
19-06-2007, 08:48 AM
Thanks Abe, i'll happily let you look at everything i have. how should i send it to you?

can i scan it into private message?

Sledge
20-06-2007, 06:05 AM
I am not familiar with the PCB involved or the equipment...so, a quick question?

Is this a variable speed fan? If the PCB in question is in fact a VFD (variable frequency drive) then the contractor is telling the truth. The VFD's I have worked with require a working load, If there is no load present, then it will not function. If this is the case the 2nd fan motor serves a dual purpose, it is both a replacement motor and a test tool.

If a VFD faults in a certain way, it can generate very high voltages, and very large phase imbalances. It can also deliver improper power supply to a motor that is not designed for that power. A vfd fed with 3phase 460 volts, rectifies that supply into 650v DC, which can be measured, this voltage is then delivered to the motor, through a set of triacs, which pulse to control the amount of power seen by the motor. (pulse width modulation). A vfd that is failing can fire the triacs at the wrong time and kill the motor.

Abe
20-06-2007, 10:23 AM
Thanks Abe, i'll happily let you look at everything i have. how should i send it to you?

can i scan it into private message?

Send to my e mail Liam
Ive sent you a PM

In case you cannot scan it, Ill send you my address.
Let me know

Abe

liamroys
20-06-2007, 03:15 PM
Cheers Abe, i'll scan and send

Now for something really funny.

just this minute had the new/newer motor fitted along with a new PCB

have a guess at what's gone now???

Compressor AND inverter PCB!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

i'm now sure they are taking the p**s

what does everyone think to that one????

Contactor
20-06-2007, 06:51 PM
Its down to them to get it right first time.

The end.

Sledge
21-06-2007, 06:39 AM
Cheers Abe, i'll scan and send

Now for something really funny.

just this minute had the new/newer motor fitted along with a new PCB

have a guess at what's gone now???

Compressor AND inverter PCB!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

i'm now sure they are taking the p**s

what does everyone think to that one????


I think there are a couple of possibilities:

The knee jerk first reaction would be that the contractor you are using is incompetent.
Another possibility is that you have an electrical problem on your site.
Is this equipment being used in an industrial setting?

chillin out
21-06-2007, 09:33 PM
Compressor AND inverter PCB!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

i'm now sure they are taking the p**s

what does everyone think to that one????
Yes, you are right. They really are taking the pee.

How the hell did they not know the comp was wrong in the beginning???????

Get rid of them very soon.

Chillin:):)

liamroys
22-06-2007, 08:30 AM
Hi Sledge, it's an office building. we have 26 ish split units around the building.

mostly Daikins, a few Fujitsu's and i've just had a tosh twin fitted recently

as you have probably guessed i'm not an engineer but a caretaker/building super. this forum is very good for picking up tips and getting advice from the pro's (creep creep):D

Abe
22-06-2007, 08:39 AM
Hi Sledge, it's an office building. we have 26 ish split units around the building.

mostly Daikins, a few Fujitsu's and i've just had a tosh twin fitted recently

as you have probably guessed i'm not an engineer but a caretaker/building super. this forum is very good for picking up tips and getting advice from the pro's (creep creep):D

As a previous poster has mentioned, the time is not for over reaction or knee jerk .

Too much has happened over too short space of time. And the problems are too coincidental. akin to lightning striking same spot twice.

This calls for a senior member of staff from the Contracting company to now get involved and offer an appraisal. In every company there is always one hot shot trouble shooter.

Something is amiss here, either sheer incompetence on the part of the engineer, or something else, ie: integrity of the power for instance.

A through investigation is now warranted by someone who knows this equipment inside out.

Good luck

liamroys
05-07-2007, 08:37 AM
Hi to all, sorry i've been bogged down (or is it watered down, (Sheffield)) this last week or 2

when the engineers left after telling me of the compressor and PCB, my contact from the company called me to explain it a bit further. i agreed that it needed to be done(good money after bad). at this rate i could have nearly bought a complete unit.

parts got and fitted, i've only been invoiced for the labour as my contact said they had claimed for compressor on warranty.

here's yet another question. how long to fit a compressor and PCB????

I can take an educated guess but i'd like to get opinions before revealing how long they were on site for

The MG Pony
05-07-2007, 04:03 PM
well its not JUST fitting the compressor, once fitted the system has to be vaced, then charged and then tuned. 3 to 4 houres for a compressor refit I'd imagin to do a proper job of it.

Dalmo
06-07-2007, 07:59 PM
It is very easy to keep pushing the problem or trouble to anothers , but I stay with Nh3wizard:
"- ...so it should fall back on them" They should Give and running the spare parts !
rgds
Dalmo

chillin out
06-07-2007, 09:24 PM
I also would say between 3 and 4 hours on site, for 1 person.

Any more than this is taking the pee, especially if there was more than one person on site.

Chillin:):)

liamroys
07-07-2007, 01:21 PM
seems a varied time then, it took 2 guys 8 hours on site to do the job.

although the parts are supplied free on warranty. the labour isn't. i think i'm paying for that 2nd motor in the long run:eek:

chillin out
08-07-2007, 10:21 PM
seems a varied time then, it took 2 guys 8 hours on site to do the job.

although the parts are supplied free on warranty. the labour isn't. i think i'm paying for that 2nd motor in the long run:eek:
LOL... I think you have MUG written on your forehead.

I think if one person ever takes 8 hours to change a comp then they should be shot, let alone 2 people taking 8 hours.

Unless you mean 4 hours each, totaling 8 hours on site, but even at that... 8 hours to change a pot....LOL

Chillin:):)

liamroys
09-07-2007, 08:41 AM
not only is MUG written but it is Tatooed on, backward so i can see it when i look in the mirror:D

it was two men for 8 hours EACH

if i didn't have a clue what they were doing then i obviously wouldn't doubt the times. but i find a little bit of knowledge (gained from this forum) comes in useful when things like this happen.

prime example is a cluesless women (apologies for sexism) taking a car to a mechanic. LICENCE TO PRINT MONEY

Abe
09-07-2007, 11:18 AM
Liam

As far as the Service Manager of that company is concerned you are that clueless " lass scenario in a garage"

His tune will soon change if he is given warning that youre not as " thick" as he thinks you are, and he will put up his hands in horror if he realises you have sought opinion on RE, no less.

Me thinks a gentle jab to his side to remind him , that you are not a money printing operation, that you are paid to check, inspect, and query.

And that, you expect from him a full and comprehensive report on the times, hours, on site, it took to execute the repairs.

That you will check with an Arbitrator suitably qualified to check these figures , and if necessary obtain an independant expert report.

If anything this will Jolt them into ensuring that they cover all the areas, and leave no grey areas for potential attack.

bobkellyb
10-07-2007, 11:02 AM
Check your warranty.
5 Year's with Daikin
Take care..

paul_h
10-07-2007, 12:34 PM
Wow, I'm sorry for you OP.

I wouldn't go halves in the cost of the second motor.
I can see the argument from both sides of the fence, having diagnosed a lot of stuffed up fan motors and PCBs in my time.
While I try to diagnose as accurately as I can, sometimes the data is not available or it would cost the customer more in labour stuffing about trying to get info from manufacturers.
Short answer, if in doubt, and the PCB is blown (ie doesn't power up with the fan unplugged, no comms out etc), I always replace both the fan and motor as the motor is nearly always the culprit on a burnt out indoor unit. If it powers up and all signals normal, usually the pcb is OK unless you see a burn out from a fuse, varistor, diode or transistor.
The company you used were obviously idiots, using your time and money to try replacing parts one at a time, and charging you more in the long run.

As for as the compressor change, I normally do one by myself in under 3 hours, averaging 2hr20min, depending on location. A lot of time is wasted going from the van to the unit with all your gear in 5-6 trips. For example, if I could park next to the unit, it would take about 1.5 hours, (done a few of these)
On thursday I did a compressor change in 3 hours, it was up a 6m high roof and the only access was using a cherrypicker and doing heaps of trips up and down on it.

monkey spanners
10-07-2007, 03:12 PM
My mate Dave installed a complete system yesterday in 5 hours (3kw wall mount)
Most jobs you make on, some you loose on, this doesn't seem to be something the company you are using realise. If i've beggered something up it should cost me, not the customer to put it right.

Jon

paul_h
10-07-2007, 04:26 PM
I've installed 3.5kw splits in less than three hours, you don't have to wait for a reclaimer to finsh, or charge it up by weight, or drag an oxy/acet and nitro rig to do welds with nitrogen, pressure test or vac for 1/2 hour etc.
Install = drill five small holes, one big one, hang up the indoor. Chuck the outdoor in place run 2m of twincoil to the indoor tails, 15 min on vac and open the service valves.
I moved recently into my own place and installed 3 small splits in 5 hours. Equipment needed is some paircoil, drills and a flaring kit. It doesn't compare to the reclaiming, welding and charging needed just for a compressor change.
Most installers I know do four back to back installs a day. An average fridgey could do that in compressor changes if they had the choice in where the units are going, like the installers do. Normally I have to drag everything up a roof, or the long way around or through the house. That takes extra time since I need extra gear.