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lana
04-05-2007, 06:07 PM
Hi everybody,

Does anyone have RETA Industrial Refrigeration books?
I would like to know about them before paying:p .

I would appreciate any comments.
Thanks

US Iceman
04-05-2007, 06:32 PM
I think you will like the books and learn something from them. They are basically for operation people, with very little design information.

Books 1 & 2 are the two you might want to start with as they cover equipment and operations of the major components.

lana
05-05-2007, 05:42 AM
Thanks a lot US Iceman,

Appreciate your comment.
Cheers

brian_chapin
07-05-2007, 12:44 PM
I have the refrigeration 1&2 and the electrical 1&2 and highly recommend them. If you sign up for RETA's online training, they make password protected PDF's of the books available for your courses.

I have a technician going through these classes now as a trial - I already went through them online. The electrical is much deeper than I think any technician ever needs but there is so much in the refrigeration manuals that I wish EVERY technician knew before they started turning valves.

BTW, you can take a free trial of those RETA courses and they will show you an example chapter of one of the books - that should give you an idea of their scope at least.

lana
07-05-2007, 02:48 PM
Thanks a lot Brian.
I have ordered the books.;)

They must be good.

Cheers:)

US Iceman
07-05-2007, 05:00 PM
RETA is beginning to develop a new book that covers more of the technical aspects. This is this initial start to what will become the next level over the CIRO certification.

I doubt this will be available until next year at the soonest.

Josip
07-05-2007, 08:54 PM
Hi, all :)

This is a statement:


The Refrigerating Engineers & Technicians Association (R.E.T.A.) is the only organization in the country dedicated to the professional development of industrial refrigeration operators and technicians. We believe that the heart of professional development is expert education and training.

When you join R.E.T.A. you become part of a growing organization that puts your education and safety above all else. Together we can educate an industry.

This is the question:

http://www.reta.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=76&sid=01d3716996679f1c8011b81b090b5c88

But no answer...seems not too much traffic there;)

Comments?

Best regards, Josip :)

US Iceman
07-05-2007, 09:22 PM
Josip, you pose an interesting predicament.:o

RETA has tried for many years to provide high quality information for training. The emphasis has been on good technical information that is used for the training.

One of the problems associated with this is the desire to learn, which has to be overcome by the emotion of "what's in it for me?"

Additionally, the problem is also worse because the certification is not mandatory, except in very specific locations. In a lot of states or cities you do not have to be certified to operate an ammonia system.

Although, people have to be certified to recharge ***** systems.:rolleyes:

What RETA is trying to do is to improve the level of knowledge through training and hopefully become the de facto standard for any certification process that may become a legal requirement.

As you can see from the lack of replies, no one as taken this very seriously yet. If at sometime in the near future a mandate is passed into law that says "Thou shalt have a license/certification to practice" a lot of people could be out of work!

This is not too much different than the refrigerant handling certificates required to work on ***** systems. Before the F gas or EPA regulations were passed I'm sure there were a lot of cowboys (and I'm also sure there still are).

All of this is based on a concept of; let the industry do what it knows how to, before the government tells us how to do it.

There is a lot at stake, and some may wake up and suddenly realize the changes have some direct impact on them. At that time, more interest will be shown.;)

Josip
07-05-2007, 10:50 PM
Hi, US Iceman :)


RETA has tried for many years to provide high quality information for training. The emphasis has been on good technical information that is used for the training.
One of the problems associated with this is the desire to learn, which has to be overcome by the emotion of "what's in it for me?"
Additionally, the problem is also worse because the certification is not mandatory, except in very specific locations. In a lot of states or cities you do not have to be certified to operate an ammonia system.
Although, people have to be certified to recharge ***** systems.:rolleyes:
What RETA is trying to do is to improve the level of knowledge through training and hopefully become the de facto standard for any certification process that may become a legal requirement.
As you can see from the lack of replies, no one as taken this very seriously yet. If at sometime in the near future a mandate is passed into law that says "Thou shalt have a license/certification to practice" a lot of people could be out of work!

My point was to say, people still do not realize importance of learning. Still today we have a lot of cowboys running around and doing stupid things and missing answers prove that. They do not see themselves in learning process.



This is not too much different than the refrigerant handling certificates required to work on ***** systems. Before the F gas or EPA regulations were passed I'm sure there were a lot of cowboys (and I'm also sure there still are).

All of this is based on a concept of; let the industry do what it knows how to, before the government tells us how to do it.

There is a lot at stake, and some may wake up and suddenly realize the changes have some direct impact on them. At that time, more interest will be shown.;)

I hope, for benefit of future generation.

Best regards, Josip :)

nh3wizard
08-05-2007, 03:05 PM
I require all (25) of my operators to do the RETA books, there is alot of good information in them.

brian_chapin
08-05-2007, 05:05 PM
I require all (25) of my operators to do the RETA books, there is alot of good information in them.

I would be most interested in seeing what your operator requirements are like - as I am faced with the prospect of writing a set of requirements myself.

nh3wizard
08-05-2007, 06:09 PM
I would be most interested in seeing what your operator requirements are like - as I am faced with the prospect of writing a set of requirements myself.

As far as I know, there are no requirements for being an operator on the east coast of the U.S., but OSHA does require training if you have more than 10,000 lbs of ammonia, and the RETA books are considered training.

Finding ammonia refrigeration operators is a challenge in it self.

Where in PA are you located?

brian_chapin
08-05-2007, 07:06 PM
As far as I know, there are no requirements for being an operator on the east coast of the U.S., but OSHA does require training if you have more than 10,000 lbs of ammonia, and the RETA books are considered training.

Yes, we are a PSM covered plant - just trying to rewrite our requirements to demand a bit more basic understanding from techs. I've noticed that some of our techs can perform procedures but have absolutely no understanding of why a procedure is written a certain way or why they are performing it.

That lack of understanding troubles me and it seems like the kind of thing that will bite us some day!


Finding ammonia refrigeration operators is a challenge in it self.

Where in PA are you located?

The facility is in Sunbury, PA.

US Iceman
08-05-2007, 07:49 PM
I seen to remember New Jersey has a requirement for licensed refrigeration operators, and perhaps New York as well. It's been a while since I have looked into this but the above is what comes to mind.



I've noticed that some of our techs can perform procedures but have absolutely no understanding of why a procedure is written a certain way or why they are performing it.


That is what the training is supposed to prevent. This also creates some issues if a properly written SOP is not available.

The worse instance I have heard of was where an operator was sent to change a relief valve on a three-way service valve. He did not understand the function of the three-way valve. He decided to change the LIVE valve, instead of the one isolated with the three-way valve.

It's a miracle he was not injured!:(

Recently, IIAR & RETA ratified the Ammonia Operator Training Guidelines. Hopefully this should be available before too long. This document provides the level of training expected for three classifications; apprentice, operator, & technician.

The other aspect of training is in the examination for verifying the operators knowledge. This allows you to gauge not only the training, but how it went over with the operators and what they absorbed.

I was in the Selinsgrove area late last fall working on a project in Klingerstown, PA. I saw several other facilities I wanted to stop and visit in the area but a tight schedule kept me from sightseeing too much.

brian_chapin
08-05-2007, 08:09 PM
That is what the training is supposed to prevent. This also creates some issues if a properly written SOP is not available.

Yes, you are on to my concern exactly. I had a tech here explain to me that a gas operated pilot valve has a pilot in it - just like your gas stove. He was NOT kidding. That sort of ignorance makes my brain hurt.

This same tech suggested we manually open a hot gas solenoid on a liquid overfeed coil "to see what would happen."

I've had a tech argue that the "R" on a Hansen 5602R pressure safety relief valve wasn't "that big of a deal" because he installed the wrong one instead of the H5602 the P&ID called for. I dunno - but it seems to me that 476scfm vs. 140 scfm is a pretty big deal.

I watched a tech spin off a strainer bottom on a live hot gas line because "it wasn't tightening the other way either".

Oh the stories I could tell...


The worse instance I have heard of was where an operator was sent to change a relief valve on a three-way service valve. He did not understand the function of the three-way valve. He decided to change the LIVE valve, instead of the one isolated with the three-way valve.

It's a miracle he was not injured!

I believe you - I copied the diagram from the Hansen bulletin and placed it directly into the SOP written for this task.


I was in the Selinsgrove area late last fall working on a project in Klingerstown, PA. I saw several other facilities I wanted to stop and visit in the area but a tight schedule kept me from sightseeing too much.

You were literally across the river then - I could be in Selinsgrove in less than 5 minutes from this location.

US Iceman
08-05-2007, 08:52 PM
Oh the stories I could tell...


I feel your pain.:D Unfortunately, these are only funny if no one gets hurt.:( Sometimes all you can do is just shake your head...

Are you working in the grocery distribution facility down by the end of the bridge and ramps? That's about a 5 minute trip.;)

brian_chapin
09-05-2007, 12:19 PM
Are you working in the grocery distribution facility down by the end of the bridge and ramps? That's about a 5 minute trip.;)

You have the location all right.

Actually this distribution facility only handles ice cream for the company - the main distribution facility is about 20 minutes away. At opposite ends of the building there is a milk processing/bottling plant and an ice cream plant.

There is ammonia refrigeration at the dairy (9,000#) as well as the Ice Cream Plant (14,000#)

The Ice Cream Plant has a PSM system that is being reworked/updated and the Milk Plant is getting a PSM system just to improve safety and efficiency.