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Moeller
28-06-2002, 05:16 PM
Hey,

I have a project to create a heatpump with following details:

Heating capacity 1500 kW
Evaporator temp. Water 30 to 10C
condenser Water 73 to 85C

The refrigerant R114 is forbidden, so what is the best refrigerant for this application?
I have heard about R236FA, but have no data sheets!

In germany, in experimental stage is the refrigerant R365mfc. But there also, I have no data. It seems to be the right way, but I need now information and not until the refrigerant is proofed.

Is there another process possible instead of the normal compressor process?

Have somewhere names of companies who have installed some system allready. (Location is germany!)

Best thanks for your help.

Regards

O. Mller

Derek
01-07-2002, 06:25 PM
You could look at R245fa from Honeywell under Enovate 3000 trade name. www.genetron.com

Suggested as an R123 replacement.

Current production is in Belgium/NL for foam blowing use. Most of the others are foam blowing/extinguisher subsitiutes but have been offered and or trialed in refrigerant grades.

Doubt you will find many users (I believe we were no 3) Trane have used R245fa in development see their website. www.trane.com.

R236fa is from National Refrigerants but seems to of disappeared from their catalogue. US Navy trialed it on submarines.

Theres also HFE 301 from 3M used on some new heat transfer applications. Electric Cars and German Railway applications.

E245fa from Rhone Pollenc currently in development for inhalers. Nice thermal match for R123.

CFI (I may have that wrong I believe there's a 3 in there somwhere) US produced heat transfer fluid with R11/R114 tendancies.

HFC 43-10mee from DuPont I recall heard nothing in 18 months on this R11/R113/R141b alternative.

Hope that helps.

Andy
02-07-2002, 09:07 AM
Moeller, what about using the heat pump to pre-heat boiler feed water to say 55-60c. This could be acomplished without the need for new refrigerants and there associated problems.
Regards. Andy.

Moeller
02-07-2002, 11:28 AM
Some Systemdetails:

On the cold side, we have two systems. One system with many of 30C water and one system with not enough 10C water. So we have to cool down the 30C - System to 10C. This part would be a normal cooling machine. But on the hot side we have a system with temp. 73C to 85C (Actually generated with steam).
The idea is, to use the heatpump effectivly in both direction. As cooling and as heating.

So, a pre-heater would not the right way, unfortunatly.

Regards. Moeller

Don Lewis
11-07-2002, 02:50 AM
Our company, Nyle Corporation, Bangor, Maine, USA, is field testing several systems using R236fa to achieve temperatures up to 110C. We have systems from 2kW to 125 kW now running. Some are heating water and some are heating air.

Moeller
11-07-2002, 11:20 AM
Hey,

Do you have some data sheets of R236fa? What kind of oil and compressortyp do you suggest for my application?

Is R236fa available? Who is the producer?

Many questions, hope you can help.

Regards

Olav Mller

Prof Sporlan
11-07-2002, 10:40 PM
R-236fa is 1,1,1,3,3,3-hexafluoropropane, an HFC. The NIST RefProp database provides these values, if you can read them :)

Temp Pressure Density (L) Density (V) Enthalpy (L) Enthalpy (V)
[F] [psia] [lb/ft^3] [lb/ft^3] [Btu/lb] [Btu/lb]
-40.00 2.100 97.41 0.07172 65.93 142.7
-30.00 2.916 96.39 0.09755 68.65 144.4
-20.00 3.975 95.36 0.1305 71.38 146.0
-10.00 5.330 94.33 0.1717 74.15 147.7
0.0 7.035 93.30 0.2228 76.94 149.4
10.00 9.152 92.25 0.2854 79.75 151.0
20.00 11.75 91.20 0.3611 82.60 152.7
30.00 14.90 90.13 0.4518 85.46 154.4
40.00 18.68 89.05 0.5597 88.36 156.0
50.00 23.16 87.95 0.6869 91.29 157.7
60.00 28.45 86.83 0.8360 94.25 159.3
70.00 34.62 85.70 1.010 97.23 161.0
80.00 41.76 84.54 1.211 100.3 162.6
90.00 49.98 83.35 1.444 103.3 164.2
100.0 59.38 82.13 1.711 106.4 165.8
110.0 70.06 80.87 2.019 109.5 167.4
120.0 82.13 79.57 2.371 112.7 168.9
130.0 95.71 78.21 2.775 115.9 170.4
140.0 110.9 76.80 3.238 119.2 171.9
150.0 127.9 75.32 3.771 122.5 173.3
160.0 146.7 73.75 4.384 125.8 174.7
170.0 167.6 72.08 5.095 129.3 176.0
180.0 190.7 70.29 5.924 132.8 177.1
190.0 216.1 68.34 6.901 136.4 178.2
200.0 244.1 66.20 8.068 140.1 179.1
210.0 274.8 63.79 9.488 144.0 179.8
220.0 308.6 61.02 11.26 148.0 180.2

Derek
15-07-2002, 12:43 PM
National reccomended a polyolester lubricant. I look at a centrifugal pump and anything designed for R114 as they are a close fit. I'm using a carbon vane item at the moment but cavitation is a problem. I have a pressure enthapy chart if you want one.

Derek
16-07-2002, 02:24 PM
Little Update

Du Pont are offering R236fa as a fire extinguisher product so watch the purity.

3M also offer HFE 7100 but that may be the same as HFE 301 as it a US designation.

Don Lewis
21-07-2002, 01:42 PM
3M is not yet making R236fa. We worked with them to develop applications for it but they are waiting for the market to grow. We have filed patent applications on some applications.