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nova
27-01-2007, 01:19 PM
Have we forgotten the basics in favour of having all the bells and whistles on the units? I mean what customer wants is a cool air to keep his product cool. Do he really need temperature modulation, floor limit, intelliset, optiset <put here another item that customer doesn't even understand>.
Sometimes I think all these nice little 'features' are put in there just because we are able to, not giving even a slightest thought whether customer really needs them. Sure this happens in the name of "competition", but really?
It could be that in future more simple units are rising their heads due the fed-up that customers have had on 'more advanced' units' problems. Units are just getting more and more complex especially due the microprocessors and their software’s and the bugs related to them (a ‘Windows’ syndrome).
Sure the practice (and perhaps the legislation in some way) could have effect on how tight temperature management is required, but if those requirements are based on sales men’s and brochures claims of having 0.1°C accuracy on temperature management (LOL!) then we're totally lost.
Have we gone too far already?

alpha
27-01-2007, 02:37 PM
I think it went too far sometime ago!

Bring back NWD, PDL, RD Non SR, LOC, Mistral 310 technology era.
dead basic, easy fix, cheap for customer and they work
(sometimes) :D

Latte
27-01-2007, 02:41 PM
Hi Nova,
The trouble reefers unlike any other form of refrigeration are a one size fits all. Vectror/SL does the lot, ambient down to -25 where any other form of refrigeration are spec'd especially for the application. This means that evrything has to go on the reefers. Take a load of flowers, modulation is good to stop them freezing but you would not need heated defrost, then drop that load off and bring back a -20 load of ice cream. No need for mudulation on this lot but heaters are required for the defrost.

I suspect there would not be much of a market for chill only trailers and frozen trailers. The only thing the large haulage contractors have to decide is TK or Carrier, and G&A (Quality) or Schmitz *(Cheap and Cheerful) * My opinion anyway*.

fatboy

The Wanderer
27-01-2007, 08:33 PM
All that aside, the best product on the market is also the simplest. Frigoblock use dial thermostat, no processor control. No incab controller just an on/off and defrost button, and now all charged with AZ20 (r410a) so the recovery rate on multi-drop puts the Vector to shame!

And in my opinion the PDL, LOC, SNWD were only betterd by the SBIII, for working on anyway!

Latte
27-01-2007, 09:20 PM
And in my opinion the PDL, LOC, SNWD were only betterd by the SBIII, for working on anyway!


Give me an Sb2 / 3 anyday

SNWD access through the side doors was always a paim, expecially when taking a compressor out. an as for the STUPID idea of having a clutch with offset pins, although i see TK went back down that road recently again.
SB2 anytime for me, all easy to get to and no having to climb up to the top of the unit to hit (Sorry John) Ajust the pulley to get the belt tension OK like on the snwd and other models like that.

One thing the Americans DID get right was to be able to keeps the SB's. None of the Early SMX problems for them

Regards

Fatboy

The Wanderer
27-01-2007, 10:04 PM
as for the STUPID idea of having a clutch with offset pins, although i see TK went back down that road recently again.

What the hell is the advantage of that, so annoying when you have a new clutch, get the bell housings together and just as you try to engague the clutch and flywheel together the thing moves!!!!

djbe
28-01-2007, 05:24 PM
All that aside, the best product on the market is also the simplest.
Frigoblock use dial thermostat, no processor control.


I think the "best" is pushing it a bit.:)

There's no denying that they are good for certain applications but they are not without their problems and limitations.

Even they aren't as simple as they used to be, with the introduction of electronic defrost timers, phase sensors, delay timers etc.

And as for having to crawl under the truck to get to the gubbins in the alternator:eek: Especially if the end cap is inches from the axle.

Peter_1
28-01-2007, 08:48 PM
Have we forgotten the basics in favour of having all the bells and whistles on the units? I mean what customer wants is a cool air to keep his product cool. Do he really need temperature modulation, floor limit, intelliset, optiset <put here another item that customer doesn't even understand>.

Same can be said about all the nowadays airco units.

The Wanderer
29-01-2007, 10:12 PM
I think the "best" is pushing it a bit.:)

There's no denying that they are good for certain applications but they are not without their problems and limitations.

Even they aren't as simple as they used to be, with the introduction of electronic defrost timers, phase sensors, delay timers etc.

And as for having to crawl under the truck to get to the gubbins in the alternator:eek: Especially if the end cap is inches from the axle.


Er yep I think i was seeing things through the eyes of the user, I have no idea why!!!!
The new DAF 45's are worse for being too close to the axel. Were doing installs for Marks and Spencer at the moment and the mount kits look horrific

djbe
30-01-2007, 07:55 PM
Er yep I think i was seeing things through the eyes of the user, I have no idea why!!!!
The new DAF 45's are worse for being too close to the axel. Were doing installs for Marks and Spencer at the moment and the mount kits look horrific

Rather you than me, fortunately I don't have too much to do with them now.

I definately don't miss blowing the carbon dust out of the alternators. Even wearing a face mask you seem to get a taste of it YUK! And black snot!:D :D :D

They should look at driving the alternators hydraulically and putting them somewhere down the chassis so you can get to them. If they used the right pump they could even get 400v out of them at truck idle (one of the limitations at the moment).

regards,djbe

The Wanderer
30-01-2007, 09:43 PM
Funny you say that, on the new volvo's their driven of a PTO half way down the chassis.

djbe
31-01-2007, 07:11 PM
Well I hope theyv'e had the forsight to put some kind of shear in the driveline. Just for those moments when the wiring burns out and locks the alternator up.

No belts to burn off means something else will have to give, if its just direct coupled it could mean some very expensive damage.:eek:

The Wanderer
01-02-2007, 12:20 AM
Still belt driven off the PTO
So now you don't hear the hellish screech because its not under the drivers arse:D

reefermadness
02-02-2007, 12:51 AM
I am one of those lucky few that still get to work on just about everything. Today, i pulled an old tk sentry and install a HK II. I just never know what is around the corner, whether its a SR2 controller or a UE!! In the yard currently, there is an Eagle and an SNWD (customers that are in for service) all the way to a Genesis carrier multi. Let the good times roll i say. As for all the modulation and all that.... i think that if basic non micro untis were still available there would still be a market for them. So many people run just for heat or just dead frozen.

Just got my SR2 book. TK will not sell the micro books to anyone anymore.... i had to have a inside loop, is it the same in europe?

ReeferMadness

Latte
02-02-2007, 06:29 PM
I am afraid so. Reefers are fairly much a closed shop overhere. TK and Carrier dealers tend to rule and there are not that many big independent companies (There are exceptions). Therefore getting information if you dont have a contact can be difficult, although saying that its Reeferjons birthday today so if you need anything he may be in a good mood and todays the day to ask him

Regards

fatboy

fordrules
03-02-2007, 03:06 AM
the volvo I worked on today had a delco remy belt driven alternator. Must be different in Europe. I HATE mounting tripacs on volvos with side fairings:mad: :mad:

Latte
04-02-2007, 01:40 AM
And as for having to crawl under the truck to get to the gubbins in the alternator:eek: Especially if the end cap is inches from the axle.

Batteries attached to the chassis on Rigids, behind the side crash bars so to jump start or check the levels on a service you have to wedge yourself in between them was never good. Carrier Electronic fuel pumps on the top of the tank, drivers alway used to park the trailers on top of a paddle or muddy field when these went.
Alternators with that stupid single strand sense wire.
Now sort these out and that would be progress

Rant over

But back to the original question, do the big boys do it just to outdo each other with more functions on their units. The question could be put to any type of refrigeration these days, take commercial fridges for example. "True" probably the biggest manufacturer in the would still make their units the old way with manual stats, manual timeclocks and klixons. Probably outdated by todays europen standards but reliable and if they do go wrong can usually be fixed there and then. Fosters/Williams and such European firms now go down the microprocessor route, once again fairly reliable but when they go wrong is a board that has to be ordered. Both do the same job equally well, just different perspectives on how to achive it. Perhaps us europeans just like all the flashing lights, Americans just judge a unit on if its works or not ?

Regards

fatboy

The Wanderer
04-02-2007, 12:23 PM
But back to the original question, do the big boys do it just to outdo each other with more functions on their units.

That is exactly what the problem is, they throw a raft of bull sh*t technology at the customer. All the electronic throttling valves, sensors all over the place, micro processor controll. All works great until it goes wrong. 80% of break downs are electrical, so what do the manufacturers do, increase the ammount of electrical componants.
The ammount of nusiance codes/breakdowns caused by the micro on TK stuff! Especially code 48!
Well its here to stay and its only going to increase

reefermadness
13-02-2007, 03:42 AM
One thing that they must get rid of is open drive compressors. Tk's large and small shaft comp have never ending problems letting gas go (entire charge) when weather gets hot/cold/hot/deep freeze. Never a problem with carriers (they have REAL springs behind their shaft seals) or for that matter anything TK running on r-12,r-502..... you get the idea. The Vector seems the way things will go in the future. ihave seen them, but never had the pleasure of working on one.

Just remember that there is always one more still runnning out there. I had a customer ask for a starter for a tk mercedes!!!

reefermadness

thermo690
16-02-2007, 11:30 PM
I am one of those lucky few that still get to work on just about everything. Today, i pulled an old tk sentry and install a HK II. I just never know what is around the corner, whether its a SR2 controller or a UE!! In the yard currently, there is an Eagle and an SNWD (customers that are in for service) all the way to a Genesis carrier multi. Let the good times roll i say. As for all the modulation and all that.... i think that if basic non micro untis were still available there would still be a market for them. So many people run just for heat or just dead frozen.

Just got my SR2 book. TK will not sell the micro books to anyone anymore.... i had to have a inside loop, is it the same in europe?

ReeferMadness


Hi have you just found the sr2 book?..... you have had it for about 5 months:D

Martin

nova
17-02-2007, 12:17 PM
...The Vector seems the way things will go in the future. ihave seen them, but never had the pleasure of working on one...
reefermadness

I've worked on them, in addition to software probs (go figure) also some AC related things. I've heard upcoming Carrier truck units are supposed to be based on Vector, with AC, hermetic compressors and all... anyone...? ;)

Still, I think we're going in the wrong direction, instead of having those features all the customer wants is the cool air to deliver the products. With more complex software due to all those features will probably bring reliability issues. Which is more wanted by the customer; delivery of the goods in a proper temperature OR having all those nifty little things they never use? And all this just in a name of competition...