Should we oil 410a Flare nuts

[Blueboy]

I was asked by one of our technicians the other day, should he oil the face of a R410a VRF flare nut? I said |I was sure he should he then asked what oil should be used? I said I had always used zoom spout high quality turbine oil in the past, but I am not sure if this is the correct stuff to use on R 410A, particularly and something as expensive and a R410a VRF system. Can someone please tell me should we still oil flares and what oil is recomended?:confused:

[The MG Pony]

Just use an oil compatible with the system? For doing R-134a systems I just use the left over drops from the container to lub the nuts.

[superswill]

can vac oil not be used???

[Brian_UK]

Nope, it is not for use with refrigerants.

[frank]

I don't use oil. I use Leak Lock on each and every R410a flare and to date, I've never had any problems or leaks.

[LRAC]

I don't use oil. I use Leak Lock on each and every R410a flare and to date, I've never had any problems or leaks.

Hi frank

i'm not built like a brick s**t house, how am i going to undo your joints in the future.

Kind regards
LRAC

[frank]

Hi LRAC

Leak Lock doesn't set and seal hard so that you cant redo a joint. It just makes sure that there are no gaps for fridge gas to leak out of.

[US Iceman]

I use Leak Lock on each and every R410a flare and to date, I've never had any problems or leaks.


Before the refrigerant changeover period started I used Leak Lock an all joints too and also never had any problems or leaks.

I have not worked on any "*****" systems for a long time, but based on my past experience I would agree with Franks comments.

[superswill]

is leak lock available from any good wholesaler? have not come accross it in years?

[US Iceman]

Where is Frank when you need him???

This product is still available here in the US, and Frank said he used it, so I'm assuming he has a source.

[superswill]

haha helping people i guess,will make a few phone call tomorrow as hell of a van trip over there,boss with love that fuel card bill!!

[Brian_UK]

Yep, LeakLok from any good wholesaler I would think, NRS, HRP etc.

Used it, loved it, told others about it, still use it.

PS Frank opened a tinny I think.....

[superswill]

on a different subject brian did you get that dakin inverter checker part number i posted for you?

[Obi Wan]

I was asked by one of our technicians the other day, should he oil the face of a R410a VRF flare nut? I said |I was sure he should he then asked what oil should be used? I said I had always used zoom spout high quality turbine oil in the past, but I am not sure if this is the correct stuff to use on R 410A, particularly and something as expensive and a R410a VRF system. Can someone please tell me should we still oil flares and what oil is recomended?:confused:

It is generally a good idea to use oil on the flare joints. But you do need to use the right type of oil. R22 systems have mineral based refrigerant oil. R407C and R410A use a synthetic (man made) oil. There are two types of synthetic oils, one is ETHER based and the other is ESTER based. Different manufactures use different oils. Daikin VRV R410A uses Ether oil. Melco use Ester oil I think.
Check with the manufacture, what type of oil they use in the system.

Regards

Obi Wan

[Peter_1]

I use the same practic as Frank, never oil the flares and allways use LeakLock but only on those flare which become cold (freezing cold) an hot each time the compressor runs.
So on a TXV, only the low side flare.
And not the flare of course but the thread of the flare.

[frank]

Leak Lock is available from United Refrigeration, Climate Centre, RPW and others.

http://www.highsidechem.com/leaklck.html

[Brian_UK]

on a different subject brian did you get that dakin inverter checker part number i posted for you?Yes, thanks, apologies for not saying 'thanks' earlier.

[kiwireeferman]

I have used Loctite 567 thread sealant for a number of years with great success. It contains Teflon. I just put a little on the back of the flare (stops nut grabbing)and a little on the flare face.
Does not go hard, it cures to a chewing gum consistancy.

[absolute]

Why use oilatall?

If the flare is made well,then it will sealdry.
I never use oil and after pressure testing I never getcall backs.

I do use a super duper new style flaring kit though.

[The MG Pony]

Oil ensures smooth pressure distribution, no matter how new or good the flare if there is no oil or other lubrication the torque is unevenly spread over the surface, thus work hardening will be more sever issue over the life time of the joint.

Well made flare + Oil = solid life long joint
Well made flare - Oil or lube = Russion rulet

[Peter_1]

I think I can say I have gathered already some experience over the years.
I never had a leak due to the fact I never used any oil.

Why they suggested oil in the older days?

The cone of most older flares was a smooth, round cone, the type you find often these days in the cheaper kits (with flaring and expanding till 3/4)
This cone makes the flare by pressing it over the whole surface of teh expanding copper, so a lot of friction.
The force you apply on the lever while turning on the cone is equal spread all over the flares surface, so the bending force/mm² (tension) copper flare is relative small.

Now the newer flares: they're not any longer smooth surfaces but mostly with 4 edgess on it.
The same force is now divided over these 4 edges whereby the applied bending force/mm² (tension) is now many, many times larger then the smooth cones.
It doesn't push any longer a flare but you can see it more like rolling the flare, almost cutting it.

You also needed to remove the sharp edges after cutting the tube before flaring it.
Well with the four edges with teh big tension, these edges are removed automatically.
Try this once for yourself with an old one http://www.hvactool.com/product_images/275FS.jpg and e new one http://www.yellowjacket.com/prdetail.cfm?PrimCatID=402&Auto=1#a130 or the off center ones http://www.yellowjacket.com/prdetail.cfm?PrimCatID=402&Auto=1#a5000

The off center ones is even an improvement of the above explanation because it applies all the force of your hand over only 1 edge, resulting in very flat, well made flares without removing teh cutting edges and without adding oil.

[Peter_1]

Yelow Ritchie describes it in fact perfect, better then my explanation in my school English.

Multi-faceted cone rolls a precise flare and simultaneously polishes it on brass, copper, and aluminum

It polishes the flare indeed very well and removes very well the cutting edges.

[chickenexp]

well ive never used oil or leak lock on 410a and lol have never got a leak,but mmm i mite look into it myself

[Frostycold]

is leak lock available from any good wholesaler? have not come accross it in years?

I got some from Dean & Wood in Leeds when I worked at SIAS

Frostycold

[Blueboy]

Well I am afraid to say that my understanding is that a little bit different to those imeadiatley .
If oil is placed on the flare face it causes a capillary action, that is to a kind of suction seal between the two faces thus actually making the seal. I think that if oil, or something is not applied then the very principle of the flare connection is lost.
I originally asked the question that started this thread, since then I have bought some flare oil from the US, its great .I have mineral and polyester oil. I have also experimented with leak lock, purchased from NRS in Liverpool off Bernie, and I have found this to be really good too.
In Summary, a good flare kit, preferably concentric, is essential. Good quality oil, Leak lock, or similar is also essential . Better still braze it if you can!!!!!!

[yoelyeve]

I use leak-lock it works grade and its not messy