What qualifications have you got?

[Pooh]

I have been in a meeting today and one of the questions raised was, what is the average qualification in refrigeration and air conditioning held by the guys in the field? This question was asked to find out what posible training we should be offering to industry to help raise the skills level. Any help would be gratefully appretiated.

Ian

[Pooh]

No interest in this poll it is a blind poll and I am only trying to find out the average qualification level of the guys working in the industry so as a training provider we can be ready for the possible inrush of people requiring further training due to the forthcoming FGAS regulations which require a level of competency as I understand at Level three within a period of two years for all persons working with any refrigerant containing flourine. This obviously includes all the refrigerants on the market today except the hydrocarbons and ammonia. We as a training organisation are only trying to help the industry as a whole.

Ian

[LRAC]

Hi Pooh

I,m 40 years old been in the trade 20 years, did three years day release at college.

I dont understand what NVQ is all about, is it a watered down C&G and a half hearted attempt at getting a qualification?

I'm old fashioned and still expect engineers to have Full C&G in refrigeration.

Lrac

Went to the RAC student of the year today and its about time for it, but a girl apprentice got awarded 2nd place, good stuff ayyyyyyyyyyyyy.

[chillin out]

Went to the RAC student of the year today and its about time for it, but a girl apprentice got awarded 2nd place, good stuff ayyyyyyyyyyyyy.

I was just thinking about getting an apprentice ....

Chillin:) :)

[Pooh]

LRAC
the NVQ is actually a higher qualification than the old C & G 207 and 257 because the students have to prove their knowledge by taking exams and prove their practical abilities by producing a portfolio of evidence that miserable old gits like me assess to see if they are up to standard and are safe to send out into industry.

Chillin Out which table were you sat on I was on number 11. yes it was good to see a girl in the industry.

Ian

[djbe]

"forthcoming FGAS regulations which require a level of competency as I understand at Level three within a period of two years for all persons working with any refrigerant containing flourine. "

Can I ask where this is written?

Putting my cards on the table I have no formal qualifications other than CG2078.

I do have 15 yrs experience in the trade, with a genuine interest in the job that I do.

I started working for a guy running his own business (transport refrigeration) in 1991 who, for the 1st 12 months, I thought everything he said was gospel.

As I got more interested in the subject I read books such as Modern Refrigeration & Air Conditioning and realised that this guy was actually an idiot, talking complete B**llocks and didn't understand the trade at all. (You can tell this when you ask questions and they give a vague answer).

In 1997 I went self employed and although I started out doing just transport was soon asked to look the exact same customers commercial equipment, so I learnt about that as well.

In 1998 I did my C&G 2078 and absolutely S*it my pants when I got my pre test study sheet, what the F**k is pressure temp. relationship. I was used to looking at the gauges, feeling the the pipework and knowing what was right and wrong:eek:

So I looked it up and made sure I understood it and passed.

As the years have gone on I am still in business whereas my previous employer has gone bankrupt and looks like doing it for a 2nd time. I make a good living, have a good core of customers and AM STILL LEARNING.

I always make sure that any work we do is to the highest standard and within current legislation.

I do not in anyway pretend to know everything about refrigeration and I have a healthy respect for those on this forum that have studied the trade and gained their qualifications.

But I am sure that there other people out there in a similar position as myself.

The question is how long is it going to take someone like myself to gain the qualifications while trying to run a business or carry on with their job.

Or is there going to be some sort of allowance for experience in the trade?

[LRAC]

Hi Pooh

I was on table 8 Thermofrost cryo.

Lrac

[Pooh]

DJBE
realistically to get level 2 and 3 via distance learning it could be done in 9 months without interfearing with the rest of your life to much other than doing some reading and sitting 5 online exams at a local centre to you. You would also need some onsite assessments as well.

Ian

[bernard]

Hi Do you have any details and cost of this?

Regards Bernard:)

[Pooh]

Bernard
at present we are still looking at costs as we are trying to get some funding from the government as they are the ones that are saying that you guys need the qualifications. We are hopefully launching the distance learning stuff in January so I will have more Info then. I think there are others out there offering the quals but not as distance learning. Anybody interested can send me a PM with an email address and I will send them more info as and when it is available.

Ian

[djbe]

Ian,

Just sent you a PM with my details.

Let me know.

Thanks,

djbe

[LRAC]

Hi Pooh

what about my situation with qualifications, i suffered a house fire from faulty new build electrics. I lost everything in it.

Where does that leave me?
Lrac

[Pooh]

LRAC
as long as you know your date of birth and name you can contact City & Guilds and they will supply replacement certificates for a small charge. Where did you do your training? as they may be able to do it as well.

Ian

[LRAC]

Where did you do your training? as they may be able to do it as well.

Ian

Cheers Ian, did my training at Solihull don't know if its still doing it?

Lrac

[Pooh]

Lrac
not sure on that one but if you need the number for C & G have a look on their web site its really usefull.

Ian

[ErickDavey]

Hi guys. First post so bear with me... Im in my second year of the course MES SMALL COMMERCIAL REFRIGERATION & AIR CONDITIONING 6087 6127 NVQ2 SCHEME. Its two evenings a week for 2 years. Im doing mine at City of Bath college. One evening is Theory & the other practical. Theres various qualificiations during those years, BRA Braising, Safe Handling etc. First year exam is practical, first year there are 3 exams, all multiple choice. You also have to create a portfolio.....a range of install & Service & Maintenance work plus written assignments covering a broad spectrum of the industry. The other thing you have to do is be assessed onsite with signoff by one of the external assessors.

Im new to the trade with no previous experiece so learning curve is massive. However 3 months into trade & together with college, im flying with installs, service & maintenance diagnosis & electrical work.

I think with F Gas regulations coming into force the government is trying to get a foundation to build on in trying to regulate what is from what I have seen, a prodominately unregulated industry. I have seen consciencous engineers who reclaim all refrigerants & oils. The flip of that is I have seen evidence & first hand of MANY engineers who dont!! I joined this industry because I CAN do things the right way & contribute my bit which means I sleep well at night :)

Its great to read some of these postings...Im learnt a lot just by reading some postings..

By the way, the RAC student of the year awards 2nd place man came from City of Bath college....good old Rob Young, Cold Therm. He's a brilliant engineer & deserved to win it in my book but hey, I wasnt the judges....plus im biased!

Hope some of the course details here helps something thinking of taking a course but is fully employed.

[LRAC]

Im new to the trade with no previous experiece so learning curve is massive. However 3 months into trade & together with college, im flying with installs, service & maintenance diagnosis & electrical work.


Hi Erick

And welcome to the world of refrigeration, just remember when its cold,raining and 2300 hrs and the battery has gone flat in your torch. Not trying to dampen your view but as all engineers who enter the trade the learning kirb is steep, college courses are great but experience teaches you quickly.Not all systems have wiring diagrams, not all systems perform as you are taught and by god you'll see some bad stuff that you can't put back too spec if you spent 4 weeks on site.

Customers will not listen too your recomendations because it worked fine for 5 years and all they want you to do is fix it.

1st lesson presumption is the mother of all F*** ups and by god you'll make them, superheat and sub cooling never conform to the books or college and your left with no alternative but to do the best you can. Engineers/mates dissapear from the face of the earth when your on call and need advice, the callout phone never stops ringing in the summer when all you see everywhere are people sitting outside the pub enjoying life and not doing 60+ hours a week.

Time is money and bosses expect their pound of flesh for their investment in you, my learning curve started with " if you can't fix it leave the keys in the van" by god that taught me the real value of being a fridge engineer.

2nd lesson, never,never,never tell a customer that you don't know whats wrong, always make out you do know whats wrong and work at it. Never give a customer your diagnosis no matter how hard they push you untill your sure of the problem, they will respect you more rather than you jumping at a diagnosis.

I don't mean to dampen your view of the trade and i always encourage our engineers to strive for excellence, but remember your only HUMAN.

Welcome to the world of refrigeration and i hope your stay is a long one,and get off the tools as soon as you can.

I attended the RAC student of the year and was impressed by the female runner up, but doubt is always in my mind about investing in female trainees with the erge for family after all trainning is not cheap, i am not a sexist and i know women can do the job as we employed a Canadian lady for 3 years who was excellent.

Lesson 3 not all members on this site will still be in refrigeration either from work load or family pressures, people views change and better jobs are available, for me its too late my destiny is set in stone.

When the roulette wheel stops paying out switch to blackjack.

all the best
LRAC

Sorry Erick started a bit of a rant on that one, just down at the minute with a funeral tomorrow.

[Pooh]

Erick
this may sound a strange question but are you employed by a company who is training you are are you doing off your own back?

Ian

[ErickDavey]

Hi Ian.
I went into the 1st year college course very high up in IBM Global services Europe. Was on very hansom wage excess of £40k but didnt want to be stuck behind a desk (flab on the belly could no longer be ignored!) im a bit of manual labour person to be honest, love getting my hands dirty and as im 33 thought it a good time to make the change.

I was approached by a chap who has his own company, mostly fridge serv & maint, some cold room install & some AC work. mainly small commercial stuff & just himself. He offered me an opportunity to get involved immediately. Havent had more than a days training.That was in changing a small hermetic compressor. Mostly trained myself onsite with what ive learned from college. I try to observe all correct procedures i.e deep/triple vac, weighing charge etc but i do feel very pressured to get done & get onto next job...

My ambitions are to work on bigger units (3 phase systems) semi hermetics & water chillers but believe this work im currently doing offers a good grounding for the principles of refrigeration cycle. When I qualify in June, Im going to do 16th edition electrics to iron out any creases in electrical knowledge then see whats available.

The more technical the work, the more interested I get but must walk before I run i spose. Thing is i always want to learn learn learn and it bugs the s**t outta my boss cos he cant always find scenarios or the time to teach. Better me being that way than an apprentice who doesnt really care i guess.

I see some benefits of my friends who are employed by bigger companies in things such as training, time given on site abiding by what rules & regulations there are out there but on the flip side, ive only worked for my boss for 3-4 months now and im already doing work that some people employed for 1-2 years havent got anywhere near and this makes me happy.

Money is poor but will address that when im NVQ2 qualified & have 16th edition & maybe inspect & test.

Regards. Eric

[gwilliamson]

Hi Chaps
I think i must be missing something. Last time this topic came up regards F GAS we all thought the minimum requirements where going to be a safe handling certificate?. I presume this has now changed. Does anyone know for sure yet what the requirments may be or do have have to wait a bit longer for confirmation?
Thanks in advance

[momo]

This poll leads to the following questions:
1. It is based on UK qualifications: Are there easily identifiable international equivalents ?

2. If we hold a qualification from elsewhere should we vote?
-"none" - ranges from the dabbler to the family/apprentice with 35+ years experience but NO papers !
--C&G, NVQ 2 (now being replaced by NQFs - a further muddle in the UK system)
Equivalent to very basic tool handling training and concepts (a course of 100-200hrs +/- or 2 GCSEs) ?
--C&G advanced, NVQ 3 (now being replaced by NQF 3): a 1 or 2 year full time course
(equivalent to A levels/baccalaureat in the case of 16 to 18 year olds) 800-1600 hours + work experience ?
--HNC or HND: (NQF 4 or 5?) again 1 to 3 year full time courses but with higher entry requirement and study level?
--HIgher level courses : (NQF 5 or 6 ) ???: Spain and Venezuela have/had 5/3 year degree level courses rated as "Industrial Engineer" <<competent>>:confused: in theory to build anything in building, industry etc... Spain ceased the specialized refrigeration university courses when the fishing industry floundered!! However you cannot teach this profession/craft unless you are an Industrial Engineer or equivalent ! ! !):o

3. It is little wonder that employee selection in the UK ( and elsewhere) is a nightmare when you receive CVs.

4. Refrigeration and to a certain level HVAC seems be in a grey area, is it: building, mechanical, electrical, gas/plumbing, supermarket-shop-fitting...?
In the Uk education our trades do not seem to appear (see quality and Curriculum Authority (...org.uk) on the web ).

5. How CAN you classify bods who can ( for a cold-room/building...) talk to client, conceive a system, calculate heat/electric/water loads/flows..., select components, make an estimate, negotiate, haggle, (get a covering loan!) cut/shape/bend/braze/weld/turn/connect/vacuum... them and end up with something that works, collect the final payment and then guarantee it works for a year, and also repair/correct what you or somebody else built! :D

6.International feed back on training, education and career improvement during life would be interesting.

PS Ultimately, somehow wherever and whoever we are: we manage to keep things cooler or warmer with degrees of competence...!
PPS Another poll to consider is: How much time do we have to spend on keeping up to date with changes: technical, regulations etc per month?:(
PPPS Another could be "Did you cheat/pay/copy... to get your bits of paper and a job?":p
I did it the legal hard way in Spain and am still studying regulations and industry exams...after 2 years full-time.:cool:

[Pooh]

MOMO
the idea of the pole is to try and find how many peaople are out there who to comply with the FGAS regulations which are coming into effect across Europe this year in various forms need to undertake further training to meet the requirements of the rules. I agree that the list of qualifications is complicated but it appears that in the UK anybody who works with flourinated refrigerants will need at least a level2 NVQ refrigeration qualification and more than likely a level 3. As we all know there are people who have a HNC/HND in refrigeration but have no practical skills, should they be allowed to work with refrigerant or should it be left to the guys who have been trained to actually do the job.

Ian

PS. as far as I can find out there is not a list of compatible qualifications list unfortunately.

[frank]

As we all know there are people who have a HNC/HND in refrigeration but have no practical skills, should they be allowed to work with refrigerant or should it be left to the guys who have been trained to actually do the job.


Hi Ian

When I applied to take my HNC the minimum entry requirement was NVQ level 3.

How do you get on the HNC course without anything less?

[Pooh]

Frank
As long as you have the required entry qualifications ie. A Levels anybody can do a HNC/D, there is no requirement for a practical qualification at all. This is the same as for people with degrees and other higher education qualifications. This fact may explain why some of the people with these qualifications make so many ****ups.

Ian

[Andy W]

Qualifications make me laugh sometimes, I started in this trade in 1978 so some may class me as old school, my dad was definately old school, in those days college opportunities were just not available, or too far away for the employer to send you, so after 2 years I was given a van and sent out on my own on simple things like maintenance and parts fitting as well as occasionally assisting the "proper" engineers with installs and large compressor changes until before you know where you are you are installing and fitting large compressors and taking a young lad along to give you a hand. How it worked in those days was if the company won a large contract it was a matter of getting bodies in vans and a presence on site, not the best or correct way to do it and many a young engineer could not cope with the stress and usually the back up from the companies was rubbish as well, it was usually sink or swim, I learnt alot by asking questions and reading books. As the years progressed we more training opportunities were created and our company started sending lads to Solihull on day release, the majority of those lads considered it a skive and when I was service manager I used to get the phone call of who had failed to turn up again and who was failing exams etc, it used to make me mad as I was never given the opportunity to gain fridge qualifications.

All I have to my name is 29 years experience which is priceless, C & G gas handling which I thought was absolutely farcial and too simple as non engineers pass it, I have 16th edition IEE regs, inspection & testing and PAT testing all of which I took in my own time, if there was a refrigeration course closer to me I would attend that.

Qualifications are ok to get a foot in the door but there are so many qualified idiots out there who just do not know what they are doing, prima donnas in my opinion.

The above are my opinions only based on my own observations during 29 years in the refrigeration industry. Incidentally I started in the fridge trade when I was 6 years old as my dad had his own refrigeration business, at 15 years old I was changing compressors on refrigerated vans, gassing up ice cream vans and repairing domestics.

[LRAC]

Hi Andy W

I totally agree with your statement about qualifications and some of the idiots who have them. OK i do have full C&G (and i might be an idiot?)but other engineers with us just have experience, most 15 years +. I would put my money on the experienced guys any day.

Now here's our problem with F gas coming in are we going to have to put all our guys through NVQ for 2 years or simpley just sack them.

Could you imagine putting experienced guys through college with the 16 year old idiots, as you say see it as a skive. Our guys don't take lightly to having the youngters take the michael out of them they'd be chucked out in the first month.

How about the pay situation with a day at college and never having a full compliment of engineering staff.

I would like Pooh to comment on the issues above.

we all have views on what and who make good engineers but 1 saying in our neck of the woods is " if you can't do it teach it" not my view but would our experienced engineers take this view when infront of a teacher/lecturer who has just learn't out of a book parrot fashion and just has good memory recall in exam situations.

Ok start kicking my butt.

Lrac

[Andy W]

Hi LRAC,

I have spoken to lecturers before and I was surprised just how little they know, ok they know all the correct terms and names etc but real experience.........

One lecturer who I know of was sacked from a fridge firm for been useless as an engineer and became.........a lecturer.

I am still not sure how F gas regs will affect me, I am just going with the flow at the moment, I agree with restricting the sale of gas to competent persons only but do we call competence and experienced engineer or a paper qualification. This industry has been very good to me and given me a good standard of living. I have already updated my gas handling which was laughable, I was not even practical tested, just going to see what happens.

Who is going to enforce all these rules, gas is readilly available on ebay and will be for the foreseeable future, gas will always find its way on the black market if you like, I know of a second hand cabinet dealer whose employees have never had any formal training, are all European immigrants who can not speak a word of english, dont use reclaim machines and just blow gas off, they are well known in my area for been "well dodgy", the likes of them will always find a way.

Real world experience out in the field is totally different to working on a nice clean unit on a work bench and a convienient height in a well lit warm classroom.

[LRAC]

Hi LRAC,

I have spoken to lecturers before and I was surprised just how little they know, ok they know all the correct terms and names etc but real experience.........

One lecturer who I know of was sacked from a fridge firm for been useless as an engineer and became.........a lecturer.

You never know Andy he might be the same bloke i was thinking about from Solihull college who tried to teach me. i managed to get him to rip up his overhead projections because i convinced him the TEV would not work in his example, i knew it was right be he didn't.

He had to re draw the example again after consulting other lecturers, might be the same bloke if you thinking of Soliohull we're about the same age.

PM me and lets see if its the same gentlemen.

Kind regards
Lrac

[Pooh]

Andy/ LRAC
I agree totally with you guys, there are tutors out there who would not know a fridge if it hit them in the back of the the neck. I must admit we have a good team of tutors who are all industry experienced with at least 20 years on the job each and some of us a lot more.
LRAC as for the training that is why we are producing distance learning materials so guys can do it in there own time without effecting his working life or having to go to college except to take the exam. Then for an NVQ2 which I beleive is the minimum requirement under FGAS a couple of onsite visits from an assessor and thats about it.

Ian
LRAC if you need any more info drop me a PM with a phone number and I will ring you.

[LRAC]

Hi Pooh

If its OK with you i'll catch up with you at the RAC.

Kind regards
Lrac

[Pooh]

No Probs LRAC see you there.

Ian

[LRAC]

No Probs LRAC see you there.

Ian

Should be the 28th Pooh
Kind regards
Lrac

[frank]

It's now confirmed that I will be going on Wednesday also. Managed to hitch a ride on the local college bus :)

[Andy]

Hi:)

will be there 27th and a while on the 28th morning, going with a few guys from other branches from work.

Kind Regards Andy:)

[Pooh]

Andy
look forward to seeing you if you get chance to pop in and see us.

Ian

[Andy]

Andy
look forward to seeing you if you get chance to pop in and see us.

Ian

Ian:)
all being well I will call in.

Kind Regards Andy:)

[flare nut]

hello there. i have an nvq level 2 which i attended after about 4 years of being in the trade. to be honest it was the biggest waste of time and had learnt a lot more just by being thrown in at the deep end as an apprentice. qualifications of this standard can never replace experiance. yeah you have to hand in evidence of work carried out but this was never checked on and nobody ever came on site to see the work i was carrying out. i could have just written out work sheets and signed them myself. as for the test it was multiple choice which i have never understood the point of. tests should be using your knowledge noy just guessing the answer that sounds best. and as for some of the people on my course that passed these tests i would not employ them to brush out condensers. i cant see how these qualifications will effect anyone apart from making there wallet a bit lighter.

[The Viking]

Don't laugh now.

The only formal qualification I got is a university degree as a mechanical Design Engineer.

No, it did not even remotely cover refrigeration or A/C. But I did learn how to design and build bridges and cranes.

Afterwards I found out that I didn't really like it:( and slipped in to refrigeration sideways.

Ok, now after 20 years, I got my safe handling but that's the only piece I got within our industry (If you count formal qualifications).

:p

[Pooh]

Flare Nut
where did you do your NVQ as you should have been visited on site at least twice.

Ian

[Reefer Madness]

Good day one and all.

I got into the trade as a favour to a mate, and I was out of work at the time, the Co. he worked for was seriously short handed, took the CITB 1 day course after a year on the tools, waste of time if you ask me, carried on doing the job. left that Co. after a fall out with the Manager. Did the C&G 2078 off my own back to get another job and am out here as a Supervisor looking after 8 TCN (Indians, Pakistanis and a Chech)techs. and a couple of locals, all who have no idea about the ozone layer, I can get R12 at Basrah market for less than the price of a cup of coffee at the petrol station in my home town, let alone BASIC H&S. I have to return to the UK soon and need another job. Where do I stand? Am I "qualified" enough after 10 years on the tools, inc. 3 years trying to teach people from other countries the "British" way of doing things, and a gas handling cert. to carry on with the job I really enjoy or do I have to go back to school, at my own expense, to get work doing that I've been doing. I am 42.

[Pooh]

Sorry the way things are going the answer is yes you need to go back to school, however it may not be that bad. You need to get a skill card if you want to work for any of the big companies which means you need an NVQ level two or at least be working towards it. There are options available, watch this space or visit the RAC exhibition.

Ian

[Reefer Madness]

Ian, good day to you.

To honest, it all sounds like a load of bull****!!!

When and where is this RAC exhibition and what goes on?

What is involved in this NVQ stuff?

What is a Skill card?

Your help is appreciated.

[Pooh]

Reefer
unfortunately in the UK the government have decided that the refrigeration industry along with many others should be regulated due to our impact on the enviroment, this has led to some forthcoming legislation that will require all engineers to be licenced as in other parts of the world. Yes it is B***** but it is the way things are going so unfortunately as engineers we need to bite the bullet and sign up.

Ian

[Reefer Madness]

Ian,
Fair enough, it does need regulation. Is that not why I signed up with ACRIB?

Do you have answers to my other questions so I can start to understand what I have to do to "conform".

What is going to happen to the cowboys/bodgers/think they knows?

Regards

[goodguy]

Pooh,
If it is of any interest, the way it works in Canada is, 1year of trade school, a 4 year apprenticeship then you write your "big test" to earn a inter-provincial red seal. This red seal enables you to work anywhere in Canada and ensures you a standard level of training.
The apprentiship, in my area anyway is designed in such a way that if you don't have experience you will not pass. Also anyone who has anything to do with refrigerants are required to take a handlers course. They then have to lable any equipment with a number that pertains directly to you, with an explination.
Also what is meant by a Fgas certificate?

[Si@airconworld]

Djbe raised an interesting point that I sympathise with. I, like him, started out working with a one man band guy who started to build up his business. After a couple of years he went off the tools and employed an engineer and I was made his 'apprentice'. After 3 years with him I gained a vast range of skills working on all kinds of air conditioning systems from single splits through to VRF. I have no formal qualifications except the C&g Safe Handling which I got this year.

Will the FGAS regs allow for this experience or will I have to cease trading until I have the proper papers?

[panman48nm]

Bernard
at present we are still looking at costs as we are trying to get some funding from the government as they are the ones that are saying that you guys need the qualifications. We are hopefully launching the distance learning stuff in January so I will have more Info then. I think there are others out there offering the quals but not as distance learning. Anybody interested can send me a PM with an email address and I will send them more info as and when it is available.

Ian

Dear Ian
i am a forgin national with 17 years experiance and very much interested in the distance learning course to aquire my skills card
my e-mail is m.maraj@sky.com

[taz24]

Will the FGAS regs allow for this experience or will I have to cease trading until I have the proper papers?


The F gas require a level II at the moment for any one who is going to inspect a refrigeration system.
They use the term inspect because this moves away from a non skilled guy doing a leak check. An inspection will require the skill of an experienced engineer.

There is no way around not having a Level II but there are ways of obtaining the qual if you can prove that you have the relevent knowledge and experience to do the job.
You need to get in touch with the training agencies and check what is on offer.

taz.

[wineman]

i am of the old school 2yrs at grimsby tech in 1976 then 5yrs apprenticeship bin doin it 31yrs and sometimes i still scrath my head your never to hold to learn

[taz24]

i still scrath my head your never to hold to learn


I agree.
With fridge every days is different.

Cheers taz.

[Pooh]

Wineman
you were at Grimsby in 1976, is that they year you finished or started? I started in 1976

Ian

[Tycho]

I had to check none, as I have no idea what that meant.

I have 1 year in school learning the basic, 2 years as an apprentice, got my Certificate of apprenticeship and 11 years in the game...

Still a learning experience :)

[airconadam]

hi all iam 19 and still learning in this trade and love it ihave done and finished my nvq level 2 now ready to go on to my level 3 iam out on my own doing jobs ie service maintenance and instos but ihave worked with a number of older engineers say 30+ and they think they know it all but have no qualifications but all they say is ihave been doing this for 20 years and i cant say much but when i specifically go to college and ask my tutor some of these questions hes like there not safe to be out ithink some of the older fellas could do with going to college again for example iwas working with an engineer the other day on a chiller and he was opening and closing a tev like it was going out of fashion and the noise that the compressor was making was untrue but i left him to it and said nothing thanks guys

[Pooh]

Airconadam
Sorry mate that is what you will come across, there are a hell of a lot of guys out there that think they know what they are doing and don't. It surprises me that more engineers are'nt killed by the way they deal with plant. I aint no angel but at least I know how the plant should work and what I should not do, unfortunately these guys think they know what they are doing is correct and as you have seen don't. I know my job is training lads to be fridge engineers but when I look at the standard of the engineers out there who are supposed to be doing the onsite training of my students I wonder what will we end up with at the end of the day. I understand that there needs to be onsite training but there should be a minimum standard for the guys training the apprentices onsite, some of the guys who my apprentices are working with don't even know what superheat is and as for zeotropic refrigerants forget it.
Listen to your tutors and make your own mind up as to what is correct not the ideal situation but its as good as you will get at present.

All the best
Ian

[ianybeany]

Hi
I am a qualified engineer (did 4 year apprenticeship, with various times in tech, all the papers to prove!!) in Ireland . I would loveto know what way an apprenticeship works in the uk?

[fridge tiff]

I did a three-year Marine Engineering apprenticeship with the Royal Navy, followed by 5 years working my way up to Chief Petty Officer, then 2.5 years in a shore repair facility, at this point the RN decided I was going to be a fridge specialist and sent me off to do the C&G course. Then they sent me to war!

I have a variety of qualifications, some civvy, some military. A lot of my work falls into the 'improvise, adapt and overcome' box. When you're 1000 miles from the UK, something breaks, no spares held on board, no stores delivery for 7 days, weapon systems about to go down due to lack of cooling water - you need to be flexible.

But I wouldn't change a thing.

Oh, yeah, and I'm a girl :0)

[frank]

Well, out of 2930 hits on this thread, only 70 have voted - with the majority of voters having NO qualifications at all (just experience I suppose).

I don't suppose that we can take the results of the Poll as being a fair overview of the skills level in this trade.

And why have only 2.389% of viewers voted :confused:

[Pooh]

Good point Frank, the idea of the poll was to give me and the college I work in an idea of what training is needed and to use the information tp try and get some funding from the goverment to pay for the training identified. The goverment are asking for the skill levels but we need to go back to them for money.

Ian

[janvipb]

I would like details of Hot Gas defrosting in Ammonia Refrigeration system for (-) 30 deg. C.

[greggg1@juno.co]

what are we talking about here? All I have to worry about is my E.P.A. (enviormental protection agency) refrigerant license.

[Sledge]

Hi

The poll uses qualifications I am not familiar with.

My qualifications are Canadian.

I am Licensed Refrigeration Techician completed 4 year apprenticeship, Licensed Construction and Maintenance Electrician completed a 4 year apprenticeship, Licensed Industrial Electrician completed a 2 year apprenticeship, Licensed Gas Fitter and Licensed IMT.

[lana]

Hi,
Everybody said something why not me?:p

I have M.Sc. in Refrigeration and Air Conditioning from University College London. I passed the exam for Registered Refrigerant Handler from City and Guilds (ACRIB) in 1999 which has expired now :D .

As you may know the university gives you the theory and the practice is up to you.

I have learned practical refrigeration myself and there is ooh lonnnnnnnng way to go yet.

I am currently registered in this wonderful site and learning a lot from you guys everyday;) .

God Bless.
Cheers

[Sledge]

Anyone know of university level programs for refrigeration in Canada/US. Until I read some of the qualifications above, I had never heard of that level of education being available. The programs I am familiar with, are college level. I have always felt that the education program at the level I have seen is inadequate.

[SteveRob]

Real hands on experience, for Refrigeration Jobs has allways counted for alot in the UK, with technical qualifications only adding as a bonus! However to suceed outside of the UK for overseas positions, most employers won't even read a resume unless Higher vocational skills and Min of a BA has been achived.

I Had a great 5 year Aprentership which included the City and Guilds 236 Electrial part 1 and 2 then the 257 Refrigeration course, which has stood me in good ground. And have also managed to get positons overseas.

So if possible I feel both Experience and as much quailifcations as possible would be best; Qualifications are good for getting your foot in the door, but after that you still need to know what you are doing, this in my apinion normally comes from experince, and not out of date text books and has been lectures. no offence guys, but times change, when I done my 257 course we spent weeks writtng about methods that haven't been used for over 30 years! and have no chance of ever returning!)

[Sledge]

My experience has been primarily hands-on and on the job. The apprenticeship education gives a very practical view of things, and combined with years of exp I seldom encounter troubles that I cannot handle, but with that said, I think that there are areas where I dont know enough, to know, what I dont know...if that makes sense. To take the trade to the next level, requires the next level of knowledge and education.

[Gwyn]

:confused: Engineers that’s a good question I am looking for an “Service Engineer” for the North Wales…. area but when they sit the interview and give you all the spiel they sound good and had years of experience qualifications yes on paper, so why not give them a try…but when you have gone thru a couple of there jobs then all is revealed only to find that yes they can talk a good job, just goes to show that Paper work is NOT all its cracked up to be! So yet again back to advertising in the local papers, lets hope that we have better luck ……“next time” (don’t forget if you want a good job and know what you you are supposed to know then give me a ring! 01978 660 250 now.
;)

[marc5180]

I started 5 years ago with a company where training was virtually non existant. I did my refrigerant handling 2078 within the first year then the only training i did was a 1 day basic electrics with Airedale and CITB level1. when work was slack the boss had us doing things like repairing gutters, building a smoking hut (dont ask)etc etc. 18 months ago id realised id had enough. I applied for a job elsewhere, i got an interview and was completely honest with the guy who was interviewing me. He offered me the job and from day 1 i started learning. Now after 18months i feel quite competent as an engineer but im still learning everyday. I just wish that from day one i had gone to college as others have. Im going to college in September to do the GNVQ2 although im not looking forward to is as i will be 10years older than most of the guys on the course....but if it makes me a better engineer then its got to be worth it. i wouldnt mind looking into the distance learning though, where i could learn it from home. Have you got any details yet Ian
Cheers
Marc

[Andy W]

when they sit the interview and give you all the spiel they sound good and had years of experience qualifications yes on paper, so why not give them a try…but when you have gone thru a couple of there jobs then all is revealed only to find that yes they can talk a good job, just goes to show that Paper work is NOT all its cracked up to be!
Couldnt of put it better myself, us old fashioned engineers who were trained in the 70's did not have the opportunity to go to college, you went work, you picked it up as you went along, I have seen too many "engineers" or "technicians" as they like to be called now who are highly qualified on paper, spent 5 years at college but know nothing, it is a fact, just listen to some of the younger ones talking while you are at the trade counter when they are picking your brains for what should be really simple problems, the annoying thing is if them guys and me were at an interview for the same job they would get it.

[maddfridge]

hi all

got an nvq level two and safe handling but really would like to see more fridge techs and ac tech with minimum

approved electrical status

Seen so many hacked electrical circiuts with the wrong supply cables and stuff frightening

left school in the late seventies !!!!

[Pooh]

Maddfridge
I agree totally with respect of the electrical part CITB have an essential electrics qualification for fridge guys which looks quite good, I am going to take the course shortly to get an idea if it is any use or just another stop me and buy one qualification like so many others.

Ian

[Pooh]

Marc
for some reason your mail did not come through and I have cleared your details off this site, please email me again and I will get you the details.

Ian

[gas_n_go]

Qualifications is a huge pet peeve of mine. Mine are as follows:
1) 20 yrs of OTJ
2) 3 yrs of technical school training
3) 2yrs of college training
4) many many various manufactorers training seminar`s (too many to count and list honestly)

I have lots of pieces of paper with fancy seals and my name on it.

My rub is this:
I live in the usa and here there is no set policy in place. Each individual area has its own requirements. I lived in one state and was required to hold a state license to work in the state, then encountered several counties inside that state that required thier own seperate license, as well as surrounding states requiring you hold thier license as well, in order to cross the state line and work. I spent a lot of time and money basically taking different versions of the same test over and over again. Which is what its really about in that area, I call it a professional tax.

Now I live in a new region and state and there is no requirments. Any monkey can show up and claim to be qualified and the customer really has no way of knowing if it true or not. Further more unscrupolous employers can lowball techs because they hire basically people who amount to nothing more then glorified laborers.

I am heavily in favor of licenses for our trade. What I feel needs to be done is this. There needs to be a series of test that certify individuals for different aspects of our industry.
1 heating
2 a/c
3 refrigeration
4 duct work
5 design
6 install
7 service
8 matinence
9 residental
10 commercial
11 industrial

I could probally think of more catagories if I try and most if not all of the above mentioned can be broken into sub catagories

Doctors go to school and learn basic anatomy and medicine but then need to further explore subjects they wish to specialize in, I believe our industry should be set under a similiar format. I would like to see at the very least national standards put in place but ideally I think global agreement would be best.

Thats my two cents on the subject. Im the new guy around here so I hope im not stepping on anyones toes but this is a sore subject for me. I've spent 20 years dedicating my life to learning this stuff and it really iritates me that my accomplishments are not safeguarded and companies are trying to use all the knowledge that me and my predecessers have amassed and are dumbing this industry down and pushing us out.

[coolments]

Hi all

Long thread but also want to comment.

No trade qualifications apart from CFC safe handling, and the odd manufacturer course & safety course, completley aprentice trained by quality engineers.
19 years solid dedication to the industry i love to work in has natrually progressed me from aprentice-engineer-senior engineer-supervisor-to be service manager at present.
Although any one who knows me would employ me with out hesitation, sadly the gap in my CV resticts emplyoment chances to companies outside my circle of aquantences in the industry.

I think experience counts to secure employment with small companies but large companies want all the bells and whisles of paper work to get you noticed.

Both i feel are now important.

[Plank!]

Hmm, I've been working on industrial refrigeration since 1987, no real qualifications in anything, except for Ammonia handling.
During that 20 year period I also spent a few years building and installing power distribution systems and control panels - Including HV/LV substations and automatic power transfer switch gear in hospitals and London Underground stations (and a few refrigeration control panels for other companies)
I'm back with star again (after a 6 year break doing other work) its taken a little while to get back into refrigeration mode, but now 13 months on i'm confident i can tackle everything life throws at me ;)
While the lack of qualifications could hinder me in job hunting, I've never really had a problem. Star asked me to come back and work for them, and this time I'm happy where i am.
I get to work on some pretty big NH3/CO2 cascades and allsorts of other intresting kit.
Mostly i get thrown in the direction of control problems, but recently I've been handed the task of mentoring our new apprentice. TBH I'm enjoying the mentor role, explaining stuff to him has filled in the gaps where i thought I'd forgotten stuff.

Regards
Steve.

[Pooh]

Plank
to be honest while working for Star the world is your oyster as far as training is concerned, if you look at your contract it states that the company will support you to whatever level of education you deem adequate for your position in the industry ie. if you want training they will pay. Speak to Bill Irving and book yourself on some courses and they will pay.

Ian

[frank]

Here are my qualifications boys,

I have been so cold, that I had to walk into a minus 10 freezer to warm up.

I have been so hot, that I had to build a fire to cool off.

I have been so wet, I had to jump into a pool to dry off.

I have been so zapped, that lightning feels like a nine volt battery on my tongue.


I am what all of you will become.

Definately an Oxymoron then :)

[norfolkboy]

hi Ian,
i think i am being thick but how can i send a pm.
many thanks,
paul.

[frank]

hi Ian,
i think i am being thick but how can i send a pm.
many thanks,
paul.

Click on the posters name and then select 'send private message'

[Plank!]

Plank
to be honest while working for Star the world is your oyster as far as training is concerned, if you look at your contract it states that the company will support you to whatever level of education you deem adequate for your position in the industry ie. if you want training they will pay. Speak to Bill Irving and book yourself on some courses and they will pay.

Ian
I must contact Bill about making use of star's E-learning site, and see what my options are for further ed. Maybe I'll hook up with him while i'm on a course later this month.

Star have sent me on several short courses since i started back with them last year, including renewing my Ammonia ticket, training me on CO2 and even getting me on an in depth Turbocor course


TBH, I seldom touch anything with cfc/hfc etc, but if the regs are going to require that i'm qualified to work on the stuff then its in Star's intrest to get me the required tickets.
Until then i'm happy enough working with NH3 and CO2

[Plank!]

Click on the posters name and then select 'send private message'

I don't get that option in the list :confused:

[marc5180]

Make sure you have got it turned on in user CP

[NH3KIWI]

here in little old new zealand we have done away with external exams apart from the limited electrical
and now have a credit system and acessments
which if i can fix a industrial breakdown i get ,say 35credits. and so on until i reach 339
problem being not all technicians get full exposure to all flavours of refrigeration. secondly alot of workplace acessors are a bit dodgy and just sign people off willy nilly .
our courses are 3 weeks per year for three years and you need 8000 hours , tutors are all past it frigees who just want to get off the tools and do not hold any teaching qualifications testing is open book????
luckilly i had fantastic tradesmen to teach me and worked for sabroe/york. so when i was left to fend for my self i got alot of experiance.
i hold nzqa level 4 i refuse to do level 5 which is "advanced trade" as i know its not worth the paper its written on

[dmatravers]

Bernard
at present we are still looking at costs as we are trying to get some funding from the government as they are the ones that are saying that you guys need the qualifications. We are hopefully launching the distance learning stuff in January so I will have more Info then. I think there are others out there offering the quals but not as distance learning. Anybody interested can send me a PM with an email address and I will send them more info as and when it is available.

Ian
Ian
Please let me know when the Distance Learning course is available.

[PaulZ]

This poll seems to be aimed at guys in the UK.
I have noticed there are not too many from other countries.
The tick boxes refer to City and Guilds and HNC or HND qualifications.
Aust has a 4 year apprenticeship and once completed you get you trade papers, an Arctick license and an electrical license.
I have been doing this for 30 or so years and most of what I know I learnt from experience or other fridgies and I am still learning and will probably never stop, maybe when I retire. I was originally indentured as a Fitter and Turner and after 2 years as a tradesman I went back to TAFE and did Refrigeration and Air Conditioning.
Most of my experience is in industrial and commercial.
Have done some domestic and air conditioning.
Paul

[ColinB]

I have been in a meeting today and one of the questions raised was, what is the average qualification in refrigeration and air conditioning held by the guys in the field? This question was asked to find out what posible training we should be offering to industry to help raise the skills level. Any help would be gratefully appretiated.

Ian

Hi Ian,

I am hoping to get into Mechanical Engineering - Refrigeration and Air Conditioning ideally. I have read through your blogs and you have mentioned about home learning. Do you know anything more about this, or a place that I can study for this qualification whilst working? I live in Scotland.

[Pooh]

Colin
send me a contact phone number by private message and I will give you a call and try and help.

Ian

[TRASH101]

Hello pooh,

can you recommend a HNC or higher course in building services or the like ? Must be part time.

Cheers :)

[Pooh]

Trash
same answer as above

Ian

[techguy]

Hi

Dont know bout UK but in Ireland they are giving refrigerant handling certs to electricians and other trades
its a ****ing disgrace. These guys wouldn't know the differance refrigerants if u smacked them in the head with some bottles. I was asked recently if a guy could use 410a to top up a leak in a 407C system????????
Sometimes I just hang up the phone and bang my head off my desk.

Only time served refrigeration engineers with revelant qualifications should be allowed work in this industry
its time we got organised and kicked these cowboys out

[PaulZ]

Hi Techguy
Couldn't agree more, similar problem in Aust too many unqualified people working on refrigeration and air conditioning.
Paul

[Pooh]

Techguy
watch this space under FGAS everybody will require a standardised qualification to work as a refrigeration/air conditioning engineer across the whole of Europe and guess what the refrigerant handling qualification wont meet the requirements it looks like the minimum will be NVQ Level Two for starters.
Lets see all the electricians and plumbers get round that one.

Ian

[LRAC]

Heres an interesting one for you Ian, as you know we have an apprentice @ Basford currently doing NVQ.

While were waiting for him to complete his course does this mean in the future he will not be allowed to work on refrigeration systems until he has gained his NVQ?

We send all apprentices out on the road while providing them with a full backup from the office for support or even sending another engineer to site if he gets stuck on anything.

While learning does this mean he will have to go out with a qualified engineer all the time????????

Kind regards
Lrac

[REEFER-TEK]

"Qualifications" ha ha hah ha

sorry but I believe it takes a taletened individual to be a good HVAC tech engineer, schools and training help get you there but still, I dont buy all into the schools making a good engineer, I have seen many come out of schools or trade centers and not have the ability to perform even though they had a piece of paper saying they did. I have worked my butt off here and was expelled from high school in my Jr. high year. and now im running my own company making half a million a year and still growing. In my opinion it takes a person that has a scientific and political business mind in this field.

I thought this was a complicated field at first but after a year, i was knocking down the competition that had 20 more years of expeirnce.

It is the individual that carries the qualifications not the paper that says he or she does.

My favorite saying goes as this, if everyone knew how easy this was,,,, everyone would be doing it.

My qualifications are as followed in the transport refrigeration:

Master certified Technician for 6+ years. No school or prestudy
Diesel Engine specialist Certified. No School or prestudy
Transit Bus Specialist Certified. No school or prestudy
Marine Specialist Certified. No school or prestudy
Section 608 Universal. Read the book and took the proctored test
Section 609 automotive. Took online
Ferris stae university Instuctor/proctor
Thermo King Education Center Proctor

And the list can continue to go on, if i felt like tooting my horn, however i am a humble guy who does not look for respect from his peers but rather making an example of what some would consider qualifications.

If i knew of other pros in the field such that were much like myself, i would hire that person before i would a graduate of a school of trade that carried a certificate saying they were qualified.

Again this is just my opion and how i see things. At the end of the day we all are trying to satisfy our customer that pays us to do a good job for them.


Regards Shawn,

[Pooh]

Reefertek
could not agree more, my favourite saying is "the more qualified the less able" although I now work in a trade school I firmly beleive that engineers are born not trained and that my job is to standardise the training received by the trainees i.e. that if a lad is being trained by a good engineer suppliment that training with my own experience. In the event of a lad coming to me that is being trained by a less than perfect engineer it then becomes my job to set that lad on the correct path.

Unfortunately industry expects all training establishments to do all of the work for them and do not take the training seriously themselves, how can we train lads to industry standards without the help from industry itself.

At the end of the day we are in a no win situation.

Unfortunately the world as it is and the insurance companies and tree huggers are forcing the need for qualifications to prove competence, it is my job to make those qualifications stand up to scrutiny.

Ian

LRAC, I will have to think about that question when I am sober.

[REEFER-TEK]

Pooh,

I agree with you 100%. I believe you may have put it a little better than I have. I am a instructor myself and train to industry standards. I dont always get the brightest technicians to work with and i have to improvise to put the training in a format that they can understand. Some of the best technicians i know were high school drop outs or uneducated, these guys understand theory and its importance of trouble shooting and applying it to the everyday services.

I have had many guys come in and apply for work over the years and show all there qualifications on paper, and in the beginning it did impress me, but then to see them work with there hands and try to apply the basics for On the Job service, total different thing.

I think id rather take a person much like myself that has the ambition and passion for this businees, train them to an industry standard, through on the job training and training programs.

As i metioned before it takes a talented individual to service these things, when considering there are many unseen unsensed factors to be considered when we talk about super heat subcooling and all the the hidden latents involved, then we throw in other hidden equations for azetrope blend refrigerants.

reefer guys have it the worse, they need to have a good automotive diagnostic skill due to the diesel engine and charging sytems. and they need to be knowledgeable in the HVAC. Its hard to find guys that have these important and essential skills.

Regards Shawn

[REEFER-TEK]

Couldnt of put it better myself, us old fashioned engineers who were trained in the 70's did not have the opportunity to go to college, you went work, you picked it up as you went along, I have seen too many "engineers" or "technicians" as they like to be called now who are highly qualified on paper, spent 5 years at college but know nothing, it is a fact, just listen to some of the younger ones talking while you are at the trade counter when they are picking your brains for what should be really simple problems, the annoying thing is if them guys and me were at an interview for the same job they would get it.

You two have hit the nail on the head.
regards R-T

[taz24]

You two have hit the nail on the head.
regards R-T


Is that not where on the jobtraining - Apprenticeships are important.

Companies have been setting fewer and fewer apprenticeships. There is a shortage of good engineers in the UK.

Get a bright young person and let them work and train in a safe controlled environment and you will get the engineer you need to continue the trade forward.

taz.

[REEFER-TEK]

Is that not where on the jobtraining - Apprenticeships are important.

Companies have been setting fewer and fewer apprenticeships. There is a shortage of good engineers in the UK.

Get a bright young person and let them work and train in a safe controlled environment and you will get the engineer you need to continue the trade forward.

taz.

we are short of techs here in the us, and alot of the new kids coming in to the trade just do not have, so apprenticeships are far and few in between. I instruct in an OJT situations, technicians get alot from that. I explain why we and the reasons of anything we do in servicing the equipment. If from there i think they have the aquired potentiol, I will work with them in getting them certified.

Regards R-T

[taz24]

If from there i think they have the aquired potentiol, I will work with them in getting them certified.

Regards R-T

I also work with apprentices. I see them through the three years of their training and seeing the boy turn into adult and qualify is very rewarding.

Companies invest a lot into the youngsters and they are subsidised by funding that is available from the government.

But there are still too few experienced engineers for the places available.
Qualifications do not make the engineer but we need to have standards and the standards have been set at the level they are.

taz

[REEFER-TEK]

I also work with apprentices. I see them through the three years of their training and seeing the boy turn into adult and qualify is very rewarding.

Companies invest a lot into the youngsters and they are subsidised by funding that is available from the government.

But there are still too few experienced engineers for the places available.
Qualifications do not make the engineer but we need to have standards and the standards have been set at the level they are.

taz

Good apprentices will aquire the necessary qualifications that are essential to the industry standards. I was once a apprentice, and now i have seem to aquire a magic wan that fixes reefers with out any trouble or thinking. And i enjoy nothing more than instucting technicans in devloping the same skills.

To hear a tech say something like i understand and you have explained in such a way that allowed me to proceive, the fundamentals and principals, through medafore and familiar analogies. It is a nice feeling that i made a difference in this individuals career.

regards, R-T

[benny_bronko]

Im not sure what all the qualifications in the uk really are, I am from Canada and hold an red seal by the trade name "refrigeration mechanic" this takes 5 years of training, I also have a b gas ticket, this is one step down from an A ticked basically I cant start up a 5 million btu furnace leaving the large industrial start ups to the A ticket holders, there are very few A ticket holders around.

[hendry]

i have 4 years Bachelor, 10 years on-site, 2 years manufacturing, and currently a professional in practice.

[Magoo]

OK I started an appreticeship in '67 ., 9000 hours. ( ok i'm old ) Qualified with advanced Trade Certificate and Electrical Tech Licence. Still learning and really love my work. Like , well paid for a huge hoby thing, on call 24/7 and love it.
magoo

[Magoo]

tend to be wary of Tech college geeks as they are full-of-them selves. Start in a work shop and get envolved and down to the actual grease and oilly midnight must run, then you learn real refrigeration hands on stuff Tech god for the theory part but analizing and fault finding comes with in-feild work usually when everybody has gone home and you face the big guy who pays the bill.
magoo

[Gwyn]

Well said, Keep up the good work.

[nedgus2]

"forthcoming FGAS regulations which require a level of competency as I understand at Level three within a period of two years for all persons working with any refrigerant containing flourine. "

Can I ask where this is written?

Putting my cards on the table I have no formal qualifications other than CG2078.

I do have 15 yrs experience in the trade, with a genuine interest in the job that I do.

I started working for a guy running his own business (transport refrigeration) in 1991 who, for the 1st 12 months, I thought everything he said was gospel.

As I got more interested in the subject I read books such as Modern Refrigeration & Air Conditioning and realised that this guy was actually an idiot, talking complete B**llocks and didn't understand the trade at all. (You can tell this when you ask questions and they give a vague answer).

In 1997 I went self employed and although I started out doing just transport was soon asked to look the exact same customers commercial equipment, so I learnt about that as well.

In 1998 I did my C&G 2078 and absolutely S*it my pants when I got my pre test study sheet, what the F**k is pressure temp. relationship. I was used to looking at the gauges, feeling the the pipework and knowing what was right and wrong:eek:

So I looked it up and made sure I understood it and passed.

As the years have gone on I am still in business whereas my previous employer has gone bankrupt and looks like doing it for a 2nd time. I make a good living, have a good core of customers and AM STILL LEARNING.

I always make sure that any work we do is to the highest standard and within current legislation.

I do not in anyway pretend to know everything about refrigeration and I have a healthy respect for those on this forum that have studied the trade and gained their qualifications.

But I am sure that there other people out there in a similar position as myself.

The question is how long is it going to take someone like myself to gain the qualifications while trying to run a business or carry on with their job.

Or is there going to be some sort of allowance for experience in the trade? hi chaps , i think i can help you , i myself came into the trade about 7 years ago as a mate to an engineer , i progressed to become a installation engineer then moved onto service , in this time i have learnt a lot and as everybody knows you are always learning in this trade , granted you old boys could woop my arse on technical knowledge , but i know enough to get by on everyday tasks in the comercial sector, now going back to qualifacations , i decided to take my nvq level 2 about two years ago , the problem with the nvq is that its very hard to evidence gather , do assignments and all the rest of the tasks required as well as working 60 hours plus through summer under presure, in fairness its near bloody impossible , the training centre realised this , and introduced an award for refrigeration engineers like us, the certificate is city and guilds level 2 / 6127 in small comercial and refrigeration systems , it is the equivelent to the nvq level 2 , it holds the same weight , now this is the part that you will find hard to believe , you take the exam online it lasts about 2 hours and is multiple choise questions , dont get me wrong if you dont have basic understanding on the fundimentals of refrigeration you wont pass it , the assessment is based on underpinning knowledge you have gained as a refrigeration engineer , the exam is easy some of the questions will make you piss your sides , if you want any info on the certificate drop me a pm , regards . karl.

[Pooh]

Karl
the 6127 Technical Certificate is NOT equivalent to an NVQ and was not introduced by the training centre you visited. The 6127 was introduced by City and Guilds about 3 years ago to form part of the underpinning knowledge requirements for the NVQ not to replace it, it does not prove any type of competence just knowledge. If you wanted a skill card the 6127 would not be accepted only the NVQ.
The 6127 can be studied online without even going to a training centre and the exams taken at a local college to you and there is an easy way to get the NVQ aswell by using the experienced worker route set up by Summit Skills which requires less collection of evidence but relies more on direct assessment of what you can do by an assessor visiting you on site several times.
There is a lot of misunderstanding of what the qualifications actually mean in our industry and it will get worse before it gets better.

Ian

[Pooh]

Nedgus2
you could gain the qualifications at Level 2 in about 4 months if you set your mind to it 6 at the outside.

Ian

[nedgus2]

Karl
the 6127 Technical Certificate is NOT equivalent to an NVQ and was not introduced by the training centre you visited. The 6127 was introduced by City and Guilds about 3 years ago to form part of the underpinning knowledge requirements for the NVQ not to replace it, it does not prove any type of competence just knowledge. If you wanted a skill card the 6127 would not be accepted only the NVQ.
The 6127 can be studied online without even going to a training centre and the exams taken at a local college to you and there is an easy way to get the NVQ aswell by using the experienced worker route set up by Summit Skills which requires less collection of evidence but relies more on direct assessment of what you can do by an assessor visiting you on site several times.
There is a lot of misunderstanding of what the qualifications actually mean in our industry and it will get worse before it gets better.

Ian hi ian, regarding the 6127 , i am currently in the process of emmigrating to oz , i am going through the vetassess skills assessment and have passed the paper based skills assessment , now i have to do a practical assessment in the uk , once passed i can proceed with the main visa lodge , the 6127 must carry weight because i would of been refused the practical skills assessment by vetassess , if the 6127 gets you into oz its good enough for me ,
in fairness what do these certs mean anyway , if i had a company i would be more inclined to take on a seasoned experienced engineer with no qualifacations [excluding 2078 ] than and young apprentice with qualifacations up to his eyeballs , i think you would agree with that , regards .
karl.

[nedgus2]

hi ian , please could you send me some info on the skilled worker route for the nvq , although vetassess have passed me on the paper based assessment i would hate to get most of the way to the visa and then something puts a spanner in the works ,cheers .
karl.

[Pooh]

Karl
drop me a PM with a phone number and I will call you.

Ian

[nedgus2]

Karl
drop me a PM with a phone number and I will call you.

Ian
hi ian thanks for the reply , i dont want to sound like an idiot but how do i send you a pm cheers , karl. ps i have tried clicking onto your name [ no joy ]

[Pooh]

Karl
left click on my name then send private mail
Ian

[frank]

Karl
left click on my name then send private mail
Ian
He needs another 3 posts Ian :) (sorry for repeating myself but karl may not have seen the other post re PM's)

[nedgus2]

Karl
left click on my name then send private mail
Ian
aargh i have tried everything , my number is ******** ring me and i will phone you back [ my phone will cost less ] regards , karl.
I've forwarded it to Pooh for you Karl - Frank

[nedgus2]

aargh i have tried everything , my number is ******** ring me and i will phone you back [ my phone will cost less ] regards , karl.
I've forwarded it to Pooh for you Karl - Frank your a gent , cheers frank, regards . karl

[eurocooling]

I have worked on quiet a few supermarkets ie Tescos and see plumbers installing pipework with open ends every where this was for Space cooling very bad work man ship with pipes laying arcoss celing tiles

[Grizzly]

I have worked on quiet a few supermarkets ie Tescos and see plumbers installing pipework with open ends every where this was for Space cooling very bad work man ship with pipes laying arcoss celing tiles

Welcome to the forum eurocooling.
Are you still active in refrigeration, or was the above historic and you have taken the "run for the sun".
Hopefully it is the former as we all can benefit from someones differing perspective. We don't appear to get too many posts from Portugal.
No I don't work for Space Cooling, but may I say, I have yet to see a bad Install of theirs. Certainly on Industrial in the southwest of England anyway.
As I was allways taught Credit where Credit is due!
Globally there may be a few roagues out there but there are some very good engineers as well!
Grizzly

[the non viking]

As an employer (without formal qualifications):eek: of some 25 engineers, one of which is The Viking (without formal qualifications:confused:), someone with 10 years plus experience will always be looked at before some young pup who's just done NVQ.

It's a common mistake that the youngsters make that as soon as they've passed their college that they think they are now engineers. As my old Dad said to me, once I'd passed my driving test, NOW YOU GOT TO LEARN TO DRIVE SON!

Gaining your qualifications is just the start, you still need the invaluable experience, passed down by many of you experienced but unqualified old gits:)!

Excellent site, thanks for all your help, advise and experience, hope that the youngsters are able to learn from it all. Hopefully in 20 years time will have experienced and qualified engineers!

[The Viking]

4 Months from joining to first post!!!

(Now you all know what I got to contend with at work)



As an employer (without formal qualifications):eek:


:eek::eek::eek::eek:

[eurocooling]

Welcome to the forum eurocooling.
Are you still active in refrigeration, or was the above historic and you have taken the "run for the sun".
Hopefully it is the former as we all can benefit from someones differing perspective. We don't appear to get too many posts from Portugal.
No I don't work for Space Cooling, but may I say, I have yet to see a bad Install of theirs. Certainly on Industrial in the southwest of England anyway.
As I was allways taught Credit where Credit is due!
Globally there may be a few roagues out there but there are some very good engineers as well!
Grizzly
Hi I am very happy in the sun I used to sub contract for them and the work was very bad which was installed when we was starting to get the systems ready to put on vac the systems had no pressures in we had a lot of leaks under cases which had to be pulled out and fixed this was in the midlands area I have been in the trade for 22years

[Grizzly]

Hi I am very happy in the sun I used to sub contract for them and the work was very bad which was installed when we was starting to get the systems ready to put on vac the systems had no pressures in we had a lot of leaks under cases which had to be pulled out and fixed this was in the midlands area I have been in the trade for 22years

Just out of interest,
What part of the Midlands?

Does " I have been in the trade 22 years" mean you are still a practising "Fridgy".

If so what the red tape and training requirements over in Portugal?

Cheers Grizzly

[snowyuk]

hi chaps , i think i can help you , i myself came into the trade about 7 years ago as a mate to an engineer , i progressed to become a installation engineer then moved onto service , in this time i have learnt a lot and as everybody knows you are always learning in this trade , granted you old boys could woop my arse on technical knowledge , but i know enough to get by on everyday tasks in the comercial sector, now going back to qualifacations , i decided to take my nvq level 2 about two years ago , the problem with the nvq is that its very hard to evidence gather , do assignments and all the rest of the tasks required as well as working 60 hours plus through summer under presure, in fairness its near bloody impossible , the training centre realised this , and introduced an award for refrigeration engineers like us, the certificate is city and guilds level 2 / 6127 in small comercial and refrigeration systems , it is the equivelent to the nvq level 2 , it holds the same weight , now this is the part that you will find hard to believe , you take the exam online it lasts about 2 hours and is multiple choise questions , dont get me wrong if you dont have basic understanding on the fundimentals of refrigeration you wont pass it , the assessment is based on underpinning knowledge you have gained as a refrigeration engineer , the exam is easy some of the questions will make you piss your sides , if you want any info on the certificate drop me a pm , regards . karl.
Hi Karl
I have just read your ad , i am very interested in gaining the 6127 certificate.
I have been in the trade for 6 years .
I would be greatfull if you could tell me where to take the online test.
mattwhitbourn@hotmail.com
cheers Matt

[snowyuk]

Hi Karl
I have not long returned from sydney, i would love to know if the 6127 is enough for skilled migration.

regards matt

[eurocooling]

Just out of interest,
What part of the Midlands?

Does " I have been in the trade 22 years" mean you are still a practising "Fridgy".

If so what the red tape and training requirements over in Portugal?

Cheers Grizzly

Northamptonshire do air con now a lot easier and the odd coldroom bow and again

[Grizzly]

Northamptonshire do air con now a lot easier and the odd coldroom bow and again

A man that's in demand no doubt!

Although some would disagree with the "a lot easier".

ASK any of the guys that deal with VRV'S and VRF'S ECT.

IT IS ALLWAYS EASY IF YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS!

Maybe that's why we all love the forum!

BECAUSE WE DON'T!
CHEERS Grizzly

[eurocooling]

A man that's in demand no doubt!

Although some would disagree with the "a lot easier".

ASK any of the guys that deal with VRV'S and VRF'S ECT.

IT IS ALLWAYS EASY IF YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS!

Maybe that's why we all love the forum!

BECAUSE WE DON'T!
CHEERS Grizzly

I am still doing vrv and vrf find no problems with them just finish 108 indoor units

[craigpcg]

Hi PPl,

IL put my cards on the table too, am 26 years old and have been in the trade since i was 16 so thats 10 years. I went to college for my nvq in scotland and spent 2 years on and off to study for qualification but due to the work demand that the comany that i worked for had i didnt manage to complete the course and got no qualifications at all. Over the course of the years to follow iv done almost 35 course ie fosters, toshiba,scotmans etc etc and have my refrigerant handling cert. I feel that a bit of paper that every1 go's on and on about and if you havent got it basically your not an engineer well i think thats a pritty sorry state to say. Most of the guys i went to college with in the first place have the bit of paper but they are absolutly no idea what they are talking about.

I think if you have the passion about the work that u do then experience is all you require.

I have now been in business for myself for almost 2 years and have 2 engineers which 1 has qualifications and 1 doesnt. And id happly taken on and engineers that have been in the field for years than take some1 thats just stepped out of college.

Cheers

Now i own

[praveen]

M b tech mechanical engineer with 5 years of experience in data center cooling quite different no..

[Gwyn]

Anybody got a contact number that I can use, to get some of my lads on a Daiken Course for there VRV systems? As have come to a brick wall trying to contact Daiken Direct!......Thanks.

[llorrac]

Ian,

Just sent you a PM with my details.

Let me know.

Thanks,

djbe
Hi i am in the same position i have 20 years experience in the industry but no formal qualification. i have recently obtained a HNC in building services but i would like to have a refrigeration qualification as the new FGAS reg will require this. I it possible to obtain this by distance learning ?
thanks
llorrac

[Pooh]

LLorac
the theory part of the FGas qualification will be available on distance learning but the practical will have to be taken at a test centre.

Ian

[taz24]

hi ian thanks for the reply , i dont want to sound like an idiot but how do i send you a pm cheers , karl. ps i have tried clicking onto your name [ no joy ]


Karl just click Pooh's name and an option bar will apear.
Just click the send a private mesage option.

Good uck.

Cheers taz.

[W.Miller]

I have a level 2 C N G and I am just doing a BTEC Level 3 and have worked in this trade for 5 years. But I still I don't know owt.

[taz24]

I have a level 2 C N G and I am just doing a BTEC Level 3 and have worked in this trade for 5 years. But I still I don't know owt.


Welcome to my world :D.

Knowing nowt is ok, we can live with that.

Its the ones who think they know it all you need to be wary of :p..

Cheers taz.