Where do we go from here?

[taz24]

As the title says :(

Where do we go from here?
HFC’s should be banned (as reported by S Duddy in h&v news).
As stated HFC’s are 2000 times more damaging than CO2.

If that is the case, and if that is the feeling of the powers to be where do we stand now?

CFCs the nasty evil refrigerants that they are, are now banned (although you can still obtain them from the East European countries). So now that we are all safe from the nasty CFCs, we started picking on the HCFCs.

If CFCs are nasty then HCFC must be its unpleasant cousin. But because HCFCs have Chlorine in them we are getting rid of the little critters as well.

Now who can we pick on next?

HFC’s

If the powers that be start on the HFC’s then what will there be left to use as a refrigerant?

Protect us from the protectors.

taz:)

[NoNickName]

If the powers that be start on the HFC’s then what will there be left to use as a refrigerant?


HC like in Denmark and Austria already.

[LRAC]

Hi

The one problem i see if the trade adopt CO2 is i have no understanding at all of this refrigerant and the procedures we must use. We will all need re-training which ain't going to be cheap.

My view is leave well alone until we are forced too by law, hopefully i would have retired by then. Our trade has always been the cause of all the worlds natural disasters and there ain't nothing you can do to persuade people otherwise, they go deaf on other causes of air born polutants.

1 major choice might be the use of air cycle refrigeration if you can find an air compressor with enough CFM to drive the system, at the moment to supply a supermarket with enough air volume would take a jet engine and there not exactly environmentally friendly.

Or will they make us do as the egyptians did and leave our food out at night in earthen ware pots and hope we get evaporation.

Regards
Lrac

[taz24]

HC like in Denmark and Austria already.


At what cost though?
The industry has spent millions trying to jump through the hoops regarding CFCs and HCFCs. Where will it stop?
If all who come into contact with refrigerants need to be licenced and qualified to use them why can't we go back to the old refigerants that worked and everone knew where they stood with them (R12, R22 and R502)? If we are not blowing foam with 12 or using it to spray deoderant then the amount lost will be controlled and that will surely make them viable again?

Cheers taz.

[taz24]

Hi


My view is leave well alone until we are forced too by law, hopefully i would have retired by then. Our trade has always been the cause of all the worlds natural disasters and there ain't nothing you can do to persuade people otherwise, they go deaf on other causes of air born polutants.

Regards
Lrac

I agree somwhat with you.
In the US they have refused to change from using R22 because the cost to do so, far out weighs the benifit of the change.
The replacement of the old refrigerants has cost millions and millions and to what real benifit?

Hand on heart and answer.
Are we better off for the replacement of the old reliable refigerants for the new ones (some of which we do not know the full effects of)?

I am not a stick my head in the sand person but who realy decided to change all the refigerants? I'll put my money on it NOT being the refrigeration engineers.

Cheers taz.

[NoNickName]

At what cost though?


Well, looking back in a century, what cost the industry had to pay to convert coal-fired steam engine to electric motors?

[Argus]

In the US they have refused to change from using R22 because the cost to do so, far out weighs the benifit of the change.




Is this the true state of affairs in the US?

I thought that there is a time scale in the Montreal Protocol on use reduction with, maybe, some local ‘enhancements’.

HFC replacements seem to be prevalent in the US A/C and chiller market.

We need a little knowledgeable input from the US to see what is really happening.
Can anybody over there throw any light on the subject?


.

[timh1970]

While the ozone hole had some merits, the whole anthropogenic climate change argument does not hold water. The figures are skewed, the scientists nobbled and the grants restricted to MMCC believers.

New gasses and re-training keeps the economy flowing and distribute wealth away from engineers and towards academics (people who would otherwise be unemployed).

Anthropogenic climate change is a good excuse to raise taxes and swell the states coffers which is why, the more discredited the theory becomes, the more that they try to ram it down our throats.

If you tell somebody the same thing enough times, they will start to believe it.

[Andy P]

You don't have to look very deeply into this thread to find a high (and fairly unhealthy) level of cynicism. I doubt that HFCs will be banned - they are too useful - but you guys need to wise up and start to use them sensibly and responsibly. No point whining about academics and politicians - if CFCs had been treated as precious we would probably still be able to use them: we were all just too careless. If we don't do the same with HFCs do we deserve any better. I don't see much evidence of the adoption of already available technology to minimise refrigerant loss - you will get the legislation you deserve!!

cheers

Andy P

[taz24]

You don't have to look very deeply into this thread to find a high (and fairly unhealthy) level of cynicism.



I don't see much evidence of the adoption of already available technology to minimise refrigerant loss - you will get the legislation you deserve!!

cheers

Andy P


Sorry Andy I disagree.
I'm not cynical. I adopt good working practice and I also work with all the refrigerants that are on the market. I'm fully trained and try my best not to loose gas.
I personally feel that if the refridge industry can as a whole reduce the level of refrigerant losses to an acceptable level then why not use refrigerants that have proved to work (now we know their side effects)
Can people honestly say that the new refrigerants are not going to be damaging in the long term?
You know where you stood with the 3 main ones of the past.

Cheers taz.

[taz24]

Well, looking back in a century, what cost the industry had to pay to convert coal-fired steam engine to electric motors?


Maybe your right but was the industry forced to change from steam to electric, or was it market forces that led the way?
By your statement are you infering that I'm a ludite?
I'll feel that a debate on refrigerants is usefull and I will be the first to adopt new tecnology and practices as and when they happen.

Cheers taz.

[LRAC]

You guys need to wise up and start to use them sensibly and responsibly. You will get the legislation you deserve!!

It is Sunday so i did expect to get preached at but not from this forum.

Point 1: When us guys wise up someone moves the goal post and as always we are being accused by others that it is our fault for the current situation.

Point 2: You have tarnished forum members as all the same, some members are qualified engineers and some are not, but here we go again with a statement of "use refrigerants responsibly". Who said we didn't,You've put us all under the same cloud and shouted you BAD BOYS as a collective.

Point 3: Legislation when it comes needs to start at the wholesalers and in times of an economic down turn they will take whatever business they can get. Nearly all wholesalers will supply to any body with a cheque book.

They cannot just limit this to refrigerant but should also include all spare parts in a refrigeration system.

The new F gas laws should protect our trade the same as corgi registration did for plumbers but i'll wait too see that one.

Regards
Lrac

[NoNickName]

By your statement are you infering that I'm a ludite?



I don't even know what a ludite is.
I just understand that part of the refrigeration industry is lazy to accept the new regulations. The laziest of all are the north americans, illicitly and unethically getting an advantage from not subscribing environmental treaties like Kyoto and Montreal.

[Pooh]

Hi folks just like to add my thoughts, had we known 30 years ago what the effects to the enviroment of releasing CFC's was we would not have filled deoderant cans with it. The refrigeration industry were only responsible for a small amount of the CFC's released if we were still allowed to use them we would be far more carefull however it does not really matter how carefull we are with the HFC's they leak anyway, oh and are worse for the enviroment. It is stated by the manufacturers of R134A that 80% of what they have produced has been released to the atmosphere either on purpose or through leaks.

Bring back R12 at least we could keep that in the system.
Ian

[taz24]

I don't even know what a ludite is.
I just understand that part of the refrigeration industry is lazy to accept the new regulations. The laziest of all are the north americans, illicitly and unethically getting an advantage from not subscribing environmental treaties like Kyoto and Montreal.


"A ludite"
Way back in the days of the industrial revolution, ludites were groups of people who refused to move with the times and destroyed the steam and water powered mechanical farm and mill machines because they required less labour:)

So in the UK somebody who refuses to change is labled a ludite:)

I do agree with you about the USA but maybe not for the same reasons.
I disagree with a lot of what the States do regarding emisions but as I understand it they have decided not to replace R22 with other refrigerants because the cost involved would definatly out weigh the beifit that replacing them would bring.

In the UK we have had up to about 10 different refrigerants that have been developed at hugh cost in money, time and effort and nearly all of them still represent problems to the environment in one way or the other.

Cheers taz.

[winfred.dela]

I don't even know what a ludite is.
I just understand that part of the refrigeration industry is lazy to accept the new regulations. The laziest of all are the north americans, illicitly and unethically getting an advantage from not subscribing environmental treaties like Kyoto and Montreal.

Hello Everybody,

This thread started quite well and it would be nice that we keep the discussion at a technical & nice friendly level.

We do not want ANY ACCUSSING again. We have just witness a guy leaving the forum because some have accussed him (jokingly, i believe) and he demanded an apology.
I believed that when we are mostly visitors in this SITE & we said something that may offend a lot (members & guests), the demand for apology is not as important . . . .
It's like when we are all guest in a friend's house and we all shout to each other, who do we apologized to? . . . :confused:

could we just FOCUS into the thread title & let's not forget that there are a lot of lurkers & guest reading all this posts. . .

ALSO, WE HOPE THIS THREAD WILL NOT DEVELOP INTO A PISSING GAME. . . .

Regards,
Winfredy :)

[Andy P]

It is Sunday so i did expect to get preached at but not from this forum.

Ok, ok - my previous post was written after sitting for 2 hours at Heathrow Airport, so may have been a tad grumpy:o

I do still think that "we" are not practicing what we preach when it comes to refrigerant loss. It has been established that 70% of refrigerant loss comes from major leaks (pipe breaks and so on) and 30% from minor leaks (threads, shaft seals etc). It seems obvious that there would be a significant reduction in refrigerant loss if systems were designed to contain "minimum" charge of refrigerant. There are loads of ways to do this already but in general I don't see chillers being designed to be low charge, and I certainly don't see any focus at all on this aspect when selling them. I can't see that the f-gas regs when introduced in Europe will really make much difference because they are not tough enough, so I expect there will be some further regulating to come - I've no idea what it might be, but I am not looking forward to it.

cheers
Andy P

[Andy]

Hi:)

what are everyones thoughts on fixed leak detection.
Methinks it should be manditory on all plant with a charge in kg's.

Kind Regards Andy:)

[US Iceman]

Well... I've tried to stay out of this because I knew it would turn into a "bash the US" concerto. And it looks like I was right.:(

Perhaps other foreign members would appreciate hearing the same about their countrymen also,... on a repeated basis too I might add.:p

The EPA lists the phase-out dates and the mandatory requirements.




Phase-Out Schedule for HCFCs Including R-22

Under the terms of the Montreal Protocol, the U.S. has agreed to meet certain obligations relating to the Phase-Out of HCFCs by specific dates.

January 1, 2004:

In accordance with the terms of the Montreal Protocol, the amount of all HCFCs that can be produced nationwide must be reduced by 35% by 2004. In order to achieve this goal, the U.S. ceased production of HCFC-141b, the most ozone-damaging of this class of chemicals, on January 1, 2003. This production ban will greatly reduce nationwide use of HCFCs as a group, and so the 2004 deadline had a minimal effect on R-22 supplies.
January 1, 2010:

After 2010, chemical manufacturers may still produce R-22 to service existing equipment, but not for use in new equipment. Air conditioning and heat pump manufacturers will only be able to use pre-existing supplies of R-22 to produce new air conditioners and heat pumps. These existing supplies would include R-22 recovered from existing equipment and recycled. It is likely that rather than depend on this very tentative supply of R-22 for new equipment, manufactures will instead utilize R-410A in all new units.
January 1, 2020:

Use of existing refrigerant, including refrigerant that has been recovered and recycled, will be allowed beyond 2020 to service existing systems, but chemical manufacturers will no longer be able to produce R-22 to service existing air conditioners and heat pumps.


I'm in agreement with Andy_P. The manufacturers seem to be doing the same thing they have for years. Designing systems as they normally would, and the refrigerant charge is just whatever it takes to fill the system.

This is a complex problem and affects the industry ("all of us"), so "we" should be the ones driving the changes, not the politicians and out of work scientists who need funding.

[Pooh]

I agree with the above however until somebody comes up with something at least as good as what we used in the past I actually agree with the Americans why change for something that actually is less efficient and is worse for the enviroment. It is typical Europe knee jerk reaction before anybody has looked at the underlying problem. All refrigerants are totally safe as long as they are were they are supposed to be and as previosly stated if the industry knew 20 years ago what we know now there would not be a problem. As far as designers designing systems as they normally would, I used to look after several Tesco sites with at least 8 tonne of R22 on site, the designers of the new systems have done the same job with less than one tonne so that arguement wont float.
There are problems but until the industry is properly regulated as it is in other countries and anybody can call themselves a refrigeration engineer we will continue to have problems.

End of rant

Ian

[US Iceman]

...look after several Tesco sites with at least 8 tonne of R22 on site, the designers of the new systems have done the same job with less than one tonne so that arguement wont float.


That's a significant reduction. I knew that some are looking into charge reduction (mostly supermarkets from what I've seen on this), so I would re-state my case by saying there are some improvments that can and should be made. Thanks for pointing that out.;)

[Pooh]

Iceman the Institute of Refrigerations guidlines for the rduction of refrigerant emmisions state that we should be reducing the amount of mechanical joints used and reducing the refrigerant charge in systems. This is obviously the way to go so why is every manufacturer of AC split units still insisting on using flare connections.

Ian

[US Iceman]

...we should be reducing the amount of mechanical joints used and reducing the refrigerant charge in systems. This is obviously the way to go so why is every manufacturer of AC split units still insisting on using flare connections.


That's a darn good question. And I sure don't have the answer. Maybe they are not too responsive to the problem just yet.

Even properly made flare joint contain the potential for failure. Connections such as flared cap tube joints for pressure switches are a big problem in my opinion. It has been a long time since I've pulled wrenches on commercial refrigeration equipment, but these joints always seemed to be the biggest culprits for leaks.

The second largest contributor were the flared connections on expansion valves. It seemed they always "backed off" due to the repeated warming/cooling cycles. A little dab of Leak Lock seemed to solve those problems.

Otherwise, most of the pipe joint failures I've seen were due to questionable brazing practice or choice of brazing/soldering compound.

In certified pipe welding, the welder is supposed to place a distinctive stamp for any weld he does. This might be a good idea for any brazed joint also. That way if a joint leaks it can be tracked back to the person.

In some ways, a leakproof system comes down to quality control.

[frank]

In some ways, a leakproof system comes down to quality control.

I agree, but Quality Control costs money ;)

Cutting costs seems to be more important these days so we appear to juggle between wanting to reduce "Global Warming" and keeping costs as low as possible.

Is this something that we can achieve?

Do we now have un-refuteable proof that man made chemicals are causing global warming, or is it just a continuance of evolution, or even a political ploy to rake in more $$'s ?

[taz24]

Well... I've tried to stay out of this because I knew it would turn into a "bash the US" concerto. And it looks like I was right.:(

.

I'm not pulling the US down.
I personaly think that jumping in to replace known refrigererants with their known benifits and hazards for unknown refrigerants is daft. Millions and millions have been invested in what now turn out to be short term replacements.

So as I started this thread I will state for the record that.

Reducing refrigerant loss is very important and all engineers who work with the stuff should be fully qualified / experienced. No one country or group of countries are better or worse than the others but all should act together to introduce a well thought out and researched policy for refrigerant change over the next 10 to 20 years. Short term knee jerk reactions will only in the long run cost more to both the environment and the industries credability.
My views only.


taz:D

[US Iceman]

Do we now have un-refuteable proof that man made chemicals are causing global warming, or is it just a continuance of evolution, or even a political ploy to rake in more $$'s ?


This sums up my concerns quite well. There were a lot of other things that could/should have been done to alleviate the source of the perceived problems.

As to the science part for exact answers, I'm still holding out for a direct cause but I think the natural cycle of environmental effects does play a larger part of this. I have not doubt mankind is a part of the problem, however, we may also be part of the cure or at the very least offer a means of control.



Cutting costs seems to be more important these days so we appear to juggle between wanting to reduce "Global Warming" and keeping costs as low as possible.


The cutting costs does seem to be the trend. I think the only way around this is to evaluate any action on some type of "value engineering" to develop a reasonable course of action.

Quality control does cost money as does compliance to legislation. The legal aspects are then mandatory, but the other ideas such as quality control should not really be considered optional as they can have a direct impact on the problem I believe.

The elimination of mechanical joints is a good idea, but as mentioned before flares are a problem. I guess what I'm saying is, we control more than we think we do.

If we control what we can, that helps.

Good points Frank!

[Refrigerologist]

[quote=frank;54344]I agree, but Quality Control costs money ;)

Quality control at the sharp end costs very little. Following correct brazing procedures, pressure testing and adequate leak checking will always save money in the long run.

No leaks, fewer call backs, less refrigerant costs.

Cutting off poor flares and remaking them etc. followed by a half an hours leak checking, preferably in the heating cycle (for heat pumps) will always help.

We will never acheive 100% leak tightness, but a little effort will go a long way.

[LRAC]

followed by a half an hours leak checking, preferably in the heating cycle (for heat pumps) will always help.

:eek: :eek: Hi Refrigerologist

Surely you didn't mean the above quote, testing with refrigerant when the system running, i bet you meant OFN ?

Because you've added refrigerant to a system that has an identified leak this could be what this thread is all about in the reduction of refrigerant loss.

Kind regards
Lrac

[Refrigerologist]

I think you mis-understood. I was discussing pre-commissioning and commissioning procedures for new installations, mainly splits.

Strength test using ofn to manufacturer's spec. ie 38 to 40 bar for R410A system. Reduce to 33 to 35bar for 24hours. If leak tight, purge nitrogen to atmosphere, (outdoors of course). Then evacuate, triple if required.

Weigh in correct charge. Then when in operation, carry out a leak test of all joints using an electronic leak detector or perhaps soapy water.

Is that clear enough?

Regards

Refrigerologist

[frank]

Strength test using ofn to manufacturer's spec. ie 38 to 40 bar for R410A system. Reduce to 33 to 35bar for 24hours. If leak tight, purge nitrogen to atmosphere, (outdoors of course). Then evacuate, triple if required.

Weigh in correct charge. Then when in operation, carry out a leak test of all joints using an electronic leak detector or perhaps soapy water.

If I have had a split on test at 40 bar, then reduced to 34 bar for 24 hours, I think I would be quietly confident that it was leak free if I got to the stage of charging it with refrigerant (R410a).

I do not see the need to then leak test it in heating mode with soapy solution. The only parts I would test would be the place I removed the gauges from before I got in my van and headed for the pub :)

The need for triple vaccing has been discussed before, do a search for triple vac to read the posts.

[Refrigerologist]

Frank,

I think you missed the point!

I was being pedantic! It seems you like it that way.

And no you cannot be 100% sure a system is leak free because it held OFN to 35bar. This is due to the different molecule size, so a leak test is still valid.

And no I don't actually carry out a 24hour presure test on small splits, but VRV is a different matter. Plus I have been called out to a couple of VRV installations that have been pressure tested satsifactorily, only to find that there has indeed been a small leak left by the install/commissioning team.

My only real point was that we are all our own quality control supervisors, and if we want to keep our industry intact, without further legislation and incompetent interference from the so called green politicians whohave jumped on the green band wagon, then I suggest we work harder to contain these chemicals.

Regards

Refrigerologist

[LRAC]

[quote=Refrigerologist;54529]Cutting off poor flares and remaking them etc. followed by a half an hours leak checking, preferably in the heating cycle (for heat pumps) will always help.

I think you mis-understood. I was discussing pre-commissioning and commissioning procedures for new installations, mainly splits.

Is that clear enough?[quote]

I think we get the idea.

Regards
Lrac

[frank]

Refrig

I missed the pedantic part :)

And I totally agree with you as far as leak testing is concerned. We must all leak test to the best of our abilities but there comes a time when we must say a system is leak free (at that point in time) and continue to charge/commission.

No system can be 100% leak free as expansion/contraction/movement/people walking on the pipework, etc, will/may cause it to leak. We've even had discussion on here about sub-standard brazing rods allowing the gas molecules to escape through the braze :eek:

All we can do is our best. :)

[TSK]

I think most people are missing the point, its not about the refrigeration industry leaking gas everywhere, its just politics, take a look at the usage of refrigerants, we only use a fraction of what the chemical companies have produced, the rest was / is blown away.
And why is it that India & China are fast becoming super economies (try " not being regulated to death" )