free heat

[jayjay]

Hi guys I apperciate this forum I read alot of the questions and answers. Even though I only understand about half of it. This is where I'm learning about refrigeration. I'm not a refrigeration guy but I own several walkins that I rent out. Here is my questions.
I need to install a new boiler and I was hoping there was some way to use the heat generated from the compressors to heat water so I can heat/warm the building? I was going to simply wrap the hot pipe near the compressor with a copper coil insulate etc. maybe come up with some way the whole thing sits in antifreeze or something. and pipe the water to a boiler mate etc.
The guy renting the freezer would like to install an electronic cooler controller from freeaire. I would like to install something that can monintor the freezer temp etc. but also control the 3 compressors so they don't kick on at the same time. Trying to eliminate the big demand charges we get.
Well I can keep going, any help would be appreciated
Thanks

[Toolman]

I need to install a new boiler and I was hoping there was some way to use the heat generated from the compressors to heat water so I can heat/warm the building? I was going to simply wrap the hot pipe near the compressor with a copper coil insulate etc. maybe come up with some way the whole thing sits in antifreeze or something. and pipe the water to a boiler mate etc.
The guy renting the freezer would like to install an electronic cooler controller from freeaire. I would like to install something that can monintor the freezer temp etc. but also control the 3 compressors so they don't kick on at the same time. Trying to eliminate the big demand charges we get.
Well I can keep going, any help would be appreciated
Thanks
The best way to get maximum heat out of the refrig system is to have a purpose made heat exchanger where the discharge is inside the water chamber and then continues onto the condenser . There are water heaters around with a seperate coil installed for this purpose but they need to be built for Refrigeration pressures .
As far as 3 compressors for one system CAREL (http://www.carel.com/carelcom/web/eng/catalogo/prodotto_dett.jsp?id_prodotto=136&id_gamma=44) make a 3 or 4 stage electronic controller that can be setup to stage start the compressors, this will only help to eliminate the start-up amps , once they are all running it will still cost the same to run . :D

[jayjay]

Where can I find one of these heat exchangers?
The free air sysyem wont work? to stage the compressors?
I have three good size compressors for the freezer and 5 smaller ones for the coolers. Can one system manage all 8 to prevent the startup surge?
I know my HVAC guy has installed something on my a/c that starts the motor slower do they make anything like that for the bigger compressors?

[Toolman]

I am in Australia , I havent heard of Freeaire (http://www.freeaire.com/catalogproducts.html)system but by the look of it on there website with only " 2 " sensors its not for you - the Dixell will eat the Freeaire and have room for more systems !!

Ask your HVAC guy , but if he is only working on your air-cond and scratches his head when it comes to real Refrigeration , best find a Commercial Refrigeration Co. ( some do both , but not all, in Aussieland ) As far as your 8 systems on one control thats easy , use a Dixell (http://www.dixell.com/page.php?sid=1e2299c3060338c753ac9ff869a7a287&pageid=PHOME001&m58LangNew=ENG) XWEB500 and run the whole shooting match from your desktop PC with a web browser ( no software to load into your PC it's in the controller ) - PS : dont get one that has its own software
As far as starting compressors slower that is only possible with an Inverter type of motor , maybe you have that but its probably just a bunch of timers to stage start the 8 compressors .

On the Heat Exchanger side have a look at ALFA LAVAL (http://www.alfalaval.com/ecoreJava/WebObjects/ecoreJava.woa/wa/showNode?siteNodeID=5407&contentID=28042&languageID=62) site it should give you an idea of equipment
Although I have seen a lot cheaper system that was coiled copper mounted inside a large hot water heater tank with inlet and outlet tails avaliable to connect refrigeration discharge in and out to then onto condenser . If we make them here in Aussie I'm sure you can get them in U.S.A.

[jayjay]

Thanks tool man. My HVAC guy scracthes his head with this stuff but at least he tells me this before hand. Will the Dixell notify the tenent if somethings wrong? phone etc. And he would like to be able to call it and get the temp readings. The unit will also stage all the compressors when to start? The website doesnt give to much info.

[Stevek]

You can soft start motors / compressors using a device called an AMPRAMP available in the UK, they have adjustable settings for just how slowly the motor starts, they typically keep the starting current to about half the normal in-rush (normally considered to be 7 times running current) but this usually happens in the first second. I will check where they are made, it's probably not in the UK anyway, we only make tax return forms these days.

[jayjay]

Thanks
let me know if you find where they are made. I will try and search it ou also.

[Pooh]

Jay
Dixcell do produce something that will do the job but wont do the ring out for you, have a look at resource data management they produce a range of ethernet compatible controllers that can be programmed to do just about anything and are relatively cheap, well in the UK that is. As far as heating the property is concerned a lot depends on what refrigerant you are using and the temperature you are looking for. In europe we work on a maximum of about 50 deg C water off a heat pump on most commonly used refrigerants.

Ian

[jayjay]

I sent an email to dixcell and in comes back anybody know where I can buy this type of unit (Dixcell XWEB) in the US?
I hate to sound dumb but you guys are starting to lose me with the technical stuff. But I'm slowing learning
Thanks

[Toolman]

Try contacting someone on this website , it looks like your in New York and so are they - Weiss Instruments (http://www.weissinstruments.com/contact.htm) It looks like they have all the Dixell range .
Try to stick to a purpose built Refrigeration Controller , you dont want to do a programming course do you ? OK so there a thing called an AMPRAMP , never heard of it in Aussieland . What you want can be done , I can see since we started this posting others have been adding there bit to it . The best thing is to find someone who knows what there talking about and isnt just in it for the maximum profit and trust him to set you right .

[Toolman]

Contact - Daniela Wolff Dixell sales engineer at Weiss danielaw@weissinstruments.com

[jayjay]

Thanks I will try and contact them tomorrow. Still can't find any type of ampramp? Do you think my electricion can install this? Or should I get the refrigeration guy?

[Toolman]

Unless you are have major problems with loosing the mains into your building due to compressor amp draw on start-up. I wouldnt worry about the AMPRAMP thing especially if no-one knows what one is , if you get a decent controller ( Dixell ) it will stage start the systems when and if you have a power fail . One thing at a time , is a good tactic . TALK TO THE DIXELL people !!

[frank]

I assume that the AMPRAMP is just a soft starter. Have a look at this link http://www.advancedmotorpower.com/softstart.htm?gclid=CNXShdPd14gCFREsEQodYW17hg

and this
http://www.engineeringtalk.com/news/sie/sie107.html

Hope it is helpful.

[Toolman]

I assume that the AMPRAMP is just a soft starter. Have a look at this link http://www.advancedmotorpower.com/softstart.htm?gclid=CNXShdPd14gCFREsEQodYW17hg

and this
http://www.engineeringtalk.com/news/sie/sie107.html

Hope it is helpful.

Well there you go , I wonder how much they cost ? Eg : Three phase 20amp :cool:

[jayjay]

O.k. I have a lot of homework to do. I need to figure out what will be the best setup. I'm guessing the ideal set up is the ampramp on the units the Dixellxweb500. I would think they will all work together. The next problem will be finding someone who can properly install everything.
On a diiferent not any ideas how I can add insulation to the inside of my walkin freezer? Its about 3300 sf 11' tall.
Thanks for all your help

[Toolman]

If anyone asks me to re-insulate a Freezer Room I say sure but we have to start again by ripping down the old . If you put new panel inside against the old room and its not sealed fully ( vapour seal ) it will start to grow ice in between the old and new and push out or in the walls it may talke a while but then the customer expects it to be fixed for free , so its not really worth it , but if your aware of the problems and are doing it yourself give it a crack .

[jayjay]

I was hoping the existing vapor seal would do the job. I was going to try and get all the way around the unit and be sure any holes were sealed up. I was going to try and install the metal tape we use on A/C ducts and seal all the seams. Then try and attach the 2" blue board insulation on the inside with double sided tape. I tried a test area and the tape worked very well. Its made for these temps. My other option was to spray Icynene (open celled spray foam) around the outside of the whole unit. In this situation I have no vapor barrier on the outside.

[Toolman]

It all sounds rather primitive but knock yourself out do all the things you suggest , the more the merrier

[Mobin_m1]

There is a new control on the market, it will do all the functions you are asking for and more. The base control can have expansion modules added to cover any other tasks. The unit is made by RDM ( Resource Data Management) and they a USA rep. available to help you.

[Silhouette]

RDM have been trading in the UK for quite some time now and supply to a few of our major retailers. Their controls are easy to set up and are IP (you can use internet explorer to view/ set parameters). I think that out of the many available controllers for the refrigeration trade that the RDM controllers are easier to use and a lot more reliable than most.:)

[rnine]

RDM have been trading in the UK for quite some time now and supply to a few of our major retailers. Their controls are easy to set up and are IP (you can use INTERNET explorer to view/ set parameters). I think that out of the many available controllers for the refrigeration trade that the RDM controllers are easier to use and a lot more reliable than most.:)
I can agree with Silhouette about the RDM capacity/pack controllers, having worked with them daily for a number of years now in the supermarket field. It sounds like the ideal solution for the OP and all his stated needs. i.e. can be linked to an inverter for ramping up/down of compressors, front end monitors for local and remote interrogation/adjustment. And should be user friendly for Jay jay..

Rnine

[rnine]

I can agree with Silhouette about the RDM capacity/pack controllers, having worked with them daily for a number of years now in the supermarket field. It sounds like the ideal solution for the OP and all his stated needs. i.e. can be linked to an inverter for ramping up/down of compressors, front end monitors for local and remote interrogation/adjustment. And should be user friendly for Jay jay..

Rnine

Doh! forgot to mention that it is possible to use as a dual pack controller as well HT/LT combined. Again a requirement Jay jay mentioned.


Rnine....(No I don't work for RDM):cool: