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US Iceman
10-10-2006, 03:08 AM
First off, let me say this not my area of expertise. This is one subject I know enough about to be dangerous.:D

However, I have not seen any threads about water treatment so I thought we should just go ahead and start a thread and see what happens.

This is being started in the NH3 forum, but would equally apply to other water-cooled systems.

http://www.advancedh2o.com/technical/manuals_guides/Tech_Corrosion_Copper.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooling_tower_system

http://www.gc3.com/srvccntr/cycles.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water

If anyone else has something to contribute, I'm sure this would be a good place to help others.

Personally, from what I've seen of water treatment programs it all sounds like a witches brew, but I think we can get this down to some basic facts to help others.

Peter_1
10-10-2006, 08:33 AM
Also a good source is the website of Baltimore Aircoil (BAC)

After filling in your name adn address, you will receive a link to a pdf file for a book of +/- 600 pages.

Or perhaps this link will work direct http://www3.baltimoreaircoil.com/english/info_center/pubs/hb_ii/BAC_ProdAppHBii2007.pdf

http://www3.baltimoreaircoil.com/english/info_center/pubs/hb_ii/BAC_RefrigHB2007.pdf

afeef
10-10-2006, 09:22 AM
very good articles iceman , we need also the additives to the chilled water cycle and cooling tower water cycle , cause 70% problems of central a/c is water .
dow company have much of them
www.dow.com

winfred.dela
12-10-2006, 12:28 AM
Also a good source is the website of Baltimore Aircoil (BAC)

After filling in your name adn address, you will receive a link to a pdf file for a book of +/- 600 pages.

Or perhaps this link will work direct http://www3.baltimoreaircoil.com/english/info_center/pubs/hb_ii/BAC_ProdAppHBii2007.pdf

http://www3.baltimoreaircoil.com/english/info_center/pubs/hb_ii/BAC_RefrigHB2007.pdf


Thanks Peter_1 for the links. Additional info to file and possibly use in the future. :)

afeef
12-10-2006, 12:52 PM
here the water TDS (total desolved solid) used in central a/c:
for cooling tower circuit : less than 1500 ppm TDS
for chiller cercuit loop:less than 500 ppm TDS

jamcool
12-10-2006, 10:30 PM
In this part of the woods our tower treatment consists of testing of Ph, conductivity, and rust.
Chemicals are added based on set points.
Nalco is our source company alot of work but u can learn alot too.

TXiceman
13-10-2006, 03:17 AM
With the big push on the enviroment, a lot of areas are really making it more difficult to handle water treatment with chemicals that will work. Also the blow down is being limited in both quantity and quality.

With this approach we are starting to see more non-chemical or chemical-free water treatment systems. Some of these systems are based on since and some are based on "magic". It is very difficult to separate the two. Some of the systems will work Ok in an area with water that is not too hard. In a hard water area, water treatment becomes more difficult.

Ken

Andy P
14-10-2006, 05:52 PM
Some of the systems will work Ok in an area with water that is not too hard. In a hard water area, water treatment becomes more difficult.


A problem in some areas of the UK is that what comes out the tap is very variable because the water supply companies pump over long distances so draw water from many different sources. It is harder now to define a "hard water area" (pardon the pun).

Also remember that soft water is corrosive - hard water that has been "softened" is also corrosive. For condensers it is important to avoid copper pipe downstream of softeners: the soft water carries copper ions to the condenser and the copper ions displace the zinc from the coil, giving the equivalent of woodworm!

cheers
Andy P

SteveDixey
14-10-2006, 10:03 PM
I don't think there is any substitute for local knowledge. A Central Cooling Services (Baltimore agents) guy I worked with was very good as he knew all the local conditions. However, what we could not predict was when Anglian Water would pull in water from another source:mad:

The previous company (a big national one), left a right mess, yet others would recommend them, which maybe goes to prove it can be the local rep not the company that might be the problem.

The issue I find now is that people running facilities do not want to get involved and ask questions, or feel they cannot ask questions, of the water treatment people. My alarm bells were ringing when the previous company referred to the condensers as "cooling towers", which they ain't!

My advice is read up, then talk to your local water suppliers about the water you receive, and talk to the condenser supplier \ agent. If you smell "used cow food", don't be afraid to ask for proof!

As the saying goes; "ask a question and feel a fool for a moment, or keep quiet and remain a fool for good".

Steve

SteveDixey
14-10-2006, 10:23 PM
Personally, from what I've seen of water treatment programs it all sounds like a witches brew,

I'll vouch for that. I was tracing a leak on a dosing line for condensers. I did not realise that the sleeve of my thick wadding lined cold-store coat was sucking up leaked chemical from some pipework insulation below the leak.

My arm was in contact with this acidic stuff for maybe an hour. Next day, blistering all over my arm:eek:

Then, sensitisation to the chemical that meant even the slightest splash on my skin or clothing in contact with my skin lead to blisters appearing, even in a diluted form.

Steve

nh3simman
02-04-2007, 06:04 PM
Anyone seen magnetic water treatment?

I have installed a few but can't say what it does. As a contractor, you are sometimes happy to leave well alone if the client accepts it.

How does it work?

US Iceman
02-04-2007, 06:34 PM
Anyone seen magnetic water treatment?


Not yet. Though I do have a friend who works for a large food processing firm who was having one of these systems crammed down his throat by a corporate engineer who thought it was a good idea to "try" one.

I would also like to hear/learn more about these magic devices.

nh3wizard
02-04-2007, 08:05 PM
Has anyone had any dealings with VRTX Technologies or PulsePure? They are into the chemical free treatments but I havent been able to find anyone who has had on of theses systems installed.

Cofreth
03-04-2007, 05:59 PM
http://www.ecospec.com/new/

Brian_UK
03-04-2007, 11:37 PM
I think the idea of the magnetic ones is that the water molecule strings are made to lie in the same direction and this is supposed to stop them falling out of suspension.

Paulajayne
04-05-2007, 08:30 AM
Hi

Interesting report

http://www.prochemtech.com/Literature/Case_Histories/dolphin2.html


http://www.prochemtech.com/Literature/Technical/ncd.html

US Iceman
04-05-2007, 03:37 PM
Hi Paulajayne,

Ouch. Those are some scathing reports. At least they contain some science, but I dare say you have to be a chemist or chemical engineer to understand all of that.

One thing I find interesting is that Evapco developed the PulsePure system and apparently are comfortable enough with it to offer it for sale.

I don't think they would be selling this unless it worked as they would be aware of the potential legal wrangling that would occur if the systems did not work as advertised.

These are the issues confronting water treatment. A lot of information to absorb and understand.;)

Lowrider
05-05-2007, 12:20 AM
The problem with these kind of "cowboys" in watertreatment systems is, that they will have some kind of "limitation" in the manual so thay can not be held responsible if the unit doesn't work!

The best way to treat water, in my view, is still chemical. In Holland we have some cooling towers with ozone treatment and also ultrasone beside the chemical treatment. They have been checked and measured every 3 months for the first two years and the results were good.

The reports clearly show the magnetic system doesn't do anything to the water! (not to big a suprise!)

If chemical treatment is done right and checked on a regular base there is no substitute!!!

SteveDixey
05-05-2007, 12:04 PM
The reports clearly show the magnetic system doesn't do anything to the water! (not to big a suprise!)

If chemical treatment is done right and checked on a regular base there is no substitute!!!

Quite correct, except it isn't the engineers that sign the cheques, it's the accountants in many cases.

So anyone singing "it will save you money" in their ear will get attention because "the bloody engineers are always spending all our money" and "they are always giving some bull about we must spend this and spend that otherwise we will get problems 5 or 10 years down the line (and I'll have skipped to my next better paid position before then anyway so I'm not bothered...)"

In my last job, we spent some £20 000 a year on chemical treatments and monthly water testing regimes. It seemed the only way we could "prove" that the scheme was at least cost neutral was to stop doing the treatment and then start presenting them with the bills for the damage.

There seem to be very few truly independent voices outside the clamour of water treatment companies vying for business that can give a detached view. When you find one, they want £Ouch! in fees and the accountants start swaying on their chair again :mad:

I certainly like the idea of UV treatment as it saves chemicals and all the hassle that goes with them, but we still have boilers and they are the biggest cost for chemicals.

Steve
the firms biggest spender and proud of it ;)

Lowrider
05-05-2007, 08:06 PM
That's my observation too!

I come at a lot of different site's but more and more it's not the technician making the decision, but the accountant who will spend tons on his car but won't go the distance for the hvac!

In Holland we have something called a C2-deposit, where we collect all chemical waste we cannot proces now! I vote, put the accountants in first!!!!

US Iceman
06-05-2007, 12:24 AM
I vote, put the accountants in first!!!!


I agree. The accountants are making the business decisions instead of the engineers more and more.

These decisions are being based only on the first costs and we all know cheaper is better, right?:rolleyes:

Lowrider
06-05-2007, 09:49 PM
long term planning? Reliability????:confused: Things an accountant has never heard off, except for his car which he will bring to the dealer and let god knows what done and never ever complain abouth the costs, but damned be the re or other technician saying somethings broke and needs fixing right away!!

magdy akl
24-01-2008, 12:03 AM
thanks for every one
can any give idea about the best (or most used) system for water treatment of 2500 m/h cooling tower.

Core4 Guy
17-02-2008, 07:57 PM
Water Treatment, the only thing I have to say about water treatment is that you really need to check the PH of the water going into the tower before you start-up a new system.

I recently ran into a start-up that had a water quality PH of 8.5 incoming, I filled the sumps with water and a week later I start-up the system. I called our water rep to come out and set up an appointment for a week later. Within that week we discovered white rust eating at every part of the galv surface. Two weeks!!! Damage did occur. Moral of the story, always check the water ph before adding water into the sumps. Acid reduces PH.

That's all I have to say about that!

Rick

NH3LVR
17-02-2008, 09:06 PM
I was in the middle of making a uninformed statement on this, when I decided to check my facts.

I found this. http://cooltowers.com/pdfs/COOLSVX03AEN_404.pdf

US Iceman
18-02-2008, 12:08 AM
That's a nice simple link you provided NH3LVR. I think this white rust problem is more prevalent than considered. It's my understanding the galvanizers had to change their procedures several years ago because of environmental concerns.

This change resulted in some impact to the components being galvanized, which make water treatment and passivation more critical for new towers/condensers.

TXiceman
18-02-2008, 02:58 AM
Search some more and you can find numerous articles on so call "white rust". What is often called white rust is caused by the way the galvanized sheet is handled and stored prior to asembly.

ken

ChilledWaterMan
20-07-2009, 02:31 PM
Turns out Evapco did not "develop" the pulse-pure. They stole it from someone else. It is a rip-off of the "Dolphin" which seems to have a really good track record. I think these "pulsed" NCD's are different from the other NCD's out there. I prefer chemicals usually because they are tested. However, that does not mean these NCD's don't work. Besides, if I could get the chemicals out of my building, it certainly would be less of a hassle. I have found that white rust can be prevented if you simply passivate the correct way for 8 weeks. It all has to do with the pH.

Bart Nabbe
20-07-2009, 04:41 PM
Hi Guys,

Due to the fact that customers are focussed on green image we are using watermanagers for several years now.
In the past nobody cared but now it's becoming a hot item to be green and save energy.

I know that this thread is old already but since chilledwaterman made a comment again I though oke then i can too, hahaha.

Please check the following link for watermanagers without chemicals that we are using for 4 years already.

http://www.aqua-perl.dk/

Greetings,

Bart.

NH3ISFORME
20-07-2009, 11:42 PM
Our system used to have the magnetic stuff, with bromine. I guess it wreaked havoc on the evaporative condensers. I think the name was Bon-Aqua or something like that. Now we contract Dubois.

717NH3
21-07-2009, 07:02 AM
I know of a lot of places in Florida who use VRTX & Dolphin to eliminate chemical treatment. These are kind of new to me as well. From what I have seen over the past few years they seem to work well. I beleive if you passivate a condenser well thats the best start you can get. In new construction a lot of the time customers & contractors don't take the time. VRTX & Dolphin systems will work well but I beleive the maintenance will be lacking on the pumps & condenser cleaning is a must. The condensers are oftern overlooked until JULY & AUGUST. A little preventive maintence goes a long way. Here we have some places with such hard water I dont beleive any water treatment will fully work. I have a couple of places who use the electricly charged plates - works well to keep scale off the tubes but you have to clean the condensers religously.