Are we all fridge guys?

[LRAC]

Hi all
i'm sure this 1 is going to get me some bad replys and posts but i think i can take it?

Reading a post tonight from Mukesh about solenoid valves and their operation a reply was made by Wizzer which was simple and didn't give too much away. My dilema as stated by Langer & Brian-UK poses a real problem for us people.By the way Wizzer will make a good engineer and deserves a place in this forum because he is one of our better trainee engineers.

Bare with me guys, this site is open to all and i'm not sure that we can see who is a non trade person or to that fact an end user,Electricians and even plumbers are now trying our trade for so called easy money with no knowledge of the processes involved and the dangers to them selves,we are now regulated in the above trades and try getting help off a sparky who quotes part P at you and a plumber who quotes corgi registration with no help from either trade for jobs we can all easily do because its part of our trade.

My concerns arise when we advise visitors on how to fix refrigeration systems at the drop of a hat NO questions asked,and inform them that spraying water on condensers should get them out of a mess when in fact it might kill them.

Legally would the member who submitted that information be held liable for any investigation by the H&S executive on them finding out that the user was advised by this forum, under the guise of information which may endanger life.( insurance companys would love us for that).

My long point is who is a fridgy and who is not and what advice should we give,are we going to kill some idiot who is trying to save money.Do i have to change my details so people can't trace me?

Very intrested to here from ABE on this one as i see he has just qualified as a lawyer, well done.

OK guys and the only lady i know on the forum LET RIP i'm ready.

Andy

[wizzer]

Cheers boss i didn't know you cared.

Wizzer

[LRAC]

Not that much Kid

[bernard]

I would think its up to the individual to carry out a risk assesment of the job in hand.

If I asked a joiner how to hang a door and he wrote me a step by step list on how to do the job.Could I then sue him when I strained my back lifting the door because he didn,t tell me it was heavy.

Anyone can become a member here and get advise by searching the archives.

So I for one don,t think anyone has anything to worry about.


Regards Bernard

[Freonboy]

Yes I agree, before long we will be sued for giving the wrong directions to somebody while travelling in London.

Its all getting out of hand, the only way to stop other trades working within our industry would be to enforce a block on non industry trades being able to purchase the spare parts, refrigerant etc in the first place. Stop the sale of do it yourself split systems as we see available now.

It is up to the suppliers to lead the way by stopping sales to non qualified personel.

[Abe]

Hi all
i'm sure this 1 is going to get me some bad replys and posts but i think i can take it?

Reading a post tonight from Mukesh about solenoid valves and their operation a reply was made by Wizzer which was simple and didn't give too much away. My dilema as stated by Langer & Brian-UK poses a real problem for us people.By the way Wizzer will make a good engineer and deserves a place in this forum because he is one of our better trainee engineers.

Bare with me guys, this site is open to all and i'm not sure that we can see who is a non trade person or to that fact an end user,Electricians and even plumbers are now trying our trade for so called easy money with no knowledge of the processes involved and the dangers to them selves,we are now regulated in the above trades and try getting help off a sparky who quotes part P at you and a plumber who quotes corgi registration with no help from either trade for jobs we can all easily do because its part of our trade.

My concerns arise when we advise visitors on how to fix refrigeration systems at the drop of a hat NO questions asked,and inform them that spraying water on condensers should get them out of a mess when in fact it might kill them.

Legally would the member who submitted that information be held liable for any investigation by the H&S executive on them finding out that the user was advised by this forum, under the guise of information which may endanger life.( insurance companys would love us for that).

My long point is who is a fridgy and who is not and what advice should we give,are we going to kill some idiot who is trying to save money.Do i have to change my details so people can't trace me?

Very intrested to here from ABE on this one as i see he has just qualified as a lawyer, well done.

OK guys and the only lady i know on the forum LET RIP i'm ready.

Andy


Thank you for your contribution Andy,

I shall research into this area of law, liability and precedent and see what I come up with.

I shall post as soon as I come up with something

Regards

Abe

[ric]

I was in a electricial branch reading there own magazine showing deals on spilts for sparkies to fit them selfs.then on the next page they were having a go at colleges doing short courses on wiring a house.they were saying you need part testing qualifications and are letting people with little skill do wiring.this is very true so how can they sell spilts for sparkies to fit knowing you will need trianing and qualifications

[chillin out]

I thought that most isp providers will not disclose any information about their users browsing.

They have some sort of code of silence, I think.

Has something to do with being able to surf 'anonymously'


Chillin:) :)

[Peter_1]

LRAC, you have a point and this is botters me too many times.
If I give a stupid answer, the nthis is mostly because the questions seems stupid for me.

But, who are we to judge if someone is qualified enough to work on a refrigeration system?
And if we don't provide these cowboys with an answer, do you think they will stop working on a refrigeration systems because we didn't give them some help?
In that case, it's better to give them the right answers.

But you're right, by giving them the right answers, we make them better techs without passing the learning process most of us have folleowed over the years.

That's also the reason why I'm so upset when I read that an institute, a school or even a manufacturer will give a specialised course where a butcher or a baker - with all the respect for their profession - can learn in 1 or 2 days whow to install an airco.
Installing will be not such a big problem, the problems starts when something goes wrong with the machines.

On the other hand, my son is helping wth me and I lear nhim as much as possible so that he doesn't need to make the same mistakes I made in the past, I can teach him the best techniques - at least what I think what the best techniques are - to solve a problem.

It becomes more and more needed that the experienced and the 'older techs' with so much experience give their experience to the younger peoples, especially those who still want to learn it the proper way.

That's also the reason why I hate glycolsystems and centralised icewater systems for airconditioning.
They no longer need a refrigeration tech to connect new coils or to service 90% of the plant. even a plumber can do it without even knowing what a compressor is.

But that's the trade, everybody wants to sell his products and we can't stop this.

[chillin out]

On the other hand, my son is helping wth me and I learn him as much as possible
We have all seen his work before and I think it might be him teaching you...LOL, I think we could all learn a thing or 2 from his work.

Chillin:) :)

[knighty]

I'm not a fridge guy....

and I ask a fair few questions about "abnormal" practices...

but only because all the local fridge guy's I find are pretty useless, I know more than a lot of them and thats before I even came here or did any research !

a couple of years ago I didn't know that a system should pump down before the compressor cuts out, or about compressor heaters... but then again neither do some of the guys that come out to fix my fridges !

the main problem is, the useless guys charge pretty much the same as the good ones.... and it gets expensive for a small company like mine trying different refrigeration companies out... especially when you get a dud !

I have a look at a system and see if I can see what is wrong with it before I call anyone.... I had a guy tell me I needed a whole new system at about £6,000 when all that I needed was a new defrost heater element !

even the apparently "good" well known and respected engineers leave something to desired, last time one fitted a compressor for me he wired a 3 phase compressor up to a single phase switch - only switching one of the phases on and off.... would have been expensive if I didn't catch it !

the guy I use now its pretty good (a friend of a friend), I use him because he works hard and we can talk through problems working out the best solution.

MMM... i think I've gone off on a tangent a bit here... but the jist of it is, erm...

some fridge guys are half whitts.... and I'd rather see what I can do myself before I let a monkey like that lose with my money...

I guess it's
dumb and trained -vs- smart and un-trained

[winfred.dela]

Am with Knighty, a customer with a grasps of the refrigeration and electrical system.

As refrigeration practitioners we should always try to educate our customer regarding our trade.
An informed customer is better to deal because they will appreciate our knowledge and experience.
But of course we can only charge them reasonably but not so much. . . :D

Usually those that know nothing about refrigeration are the one's that wanted the lowest cost
and even demand free.

LRAC has a valid concern, but how can we purge those?
. . . without alienating customers and guys like Knighty. :rolleyes:

[Tracy_wi]

No we are not all guys. I am not a guy but yes a certified ammonia refrigeration technician. So if I am not the one lady to which Andy refers, he can now say 2. And while I am at it I would like to thank all on this site who helped me learn when I so despartly needed it. I thought all the things they helped me with they stressed safety. One individual was almost outraged that I was working with ammonia with so little experience, I am guessing that individual would be surprised to know I am certified now. Again I thank you all for helping me.

[Samarjit Sen]

Dear LRAC,

Spraying a little water on the air cooled condenser helps in reducing the discharge pressure. It does not kill any one or any thing. This process should be adopted for a short time. What is an Evaporative Condenser ? You are spraying water over bare condenser tubes.

I have been in this trade for over 42 years and have executed a large number of designing to installation of refrigeration plants. Mostly they have been with ***** or 404A. With ammonia we have done very few may be 6 or 7 projects for Potato storage.

I agree that today with people having no knowledge of refrigeration are entering into this, and they quote a ridiculously low price which does not even meet the cost of the materials, it is creating problem as genuine refrigeration small firms are unable to get the jobs. Maybe later the client realises his errors, but by that time it is too late. We are talking about non refrigeration people, you will be surprised that in our country some internationally renowned company are taking up jobs for which they have no design facility or competent personals. They are quoting absurd prices, and the customer feels that if a branded company can do this job at this cost then why should they pay more to us.

What Winfred has suggested is the correct solution. We can not help in non refrigeration people getting in.

[LRAC]

Hi Samarjit Sen

(quote)Spraying a little water on the air cooled condenser helps in reducing the discharge pressure. It does not kill any one or any thing.

The above was used as an example of bad practice which can kill you by means of water and electricity,sadly to say even trained engineers some times get caught out and loose their lives, but the point of the post was is my advice going to KILL you or others,and to this effect ruin my future career and life by advising limited knowledge persons.

Non fridgy's can tinker all they like but don't come running to us when the job goes belly up and quote the advise you recieved from this forum.

LRAC

[Samarjit Sen]

Dear LRAC,

It appears you are slightly offended. My opinion was purely for a temporay period. The forum is there for guidance from experience and knowledge, and as such to blame any one would be wrong.

Since you are not aware of my background, you have this comments which does not annoy me. I believe in forgive and forget. Irrespective of our age and experience we are all in this forum as a freind, and you will be surprised to know that in my short duration in this forum, I have met a number of people with whom good freindship has developed.

With best wishes,

[LRAC]

sorry didn't mean last post to cause any offence but following the next statement i'll await ABE's response.

Ive picked a member @ random Mr.Bartlett who is a fantastic forum poster(sorry Mr.Bartlett),could any advice that is given by Mr.Bartlett lead to prosecution and here's why.

Mr.Bartlett and other members link their company websites to the forum so with any advice given, is it the opinion of the individual or that of the company whether payed for or given free, and could this lead to legal action as stated previously against our company's.

I wont post here on this subject again(thank god for that i hear you say)but it neads thought.

Kind regards
LRAC

[Renato RR]

I will quote one smart guy from the forum.
Biography:
40 and still don't know everything

We have 5 departments in firm and electricians learn fast about refrigerant and machine.However my fridge guys know leatle about electricity.They look at electric board like on one big component but that is wrong and leads to expensive repairs.

So Fridge must know:
water
air
refrigerant
electricity
electronics
automatic

I dont know guys who are good on all six points.

renato

[Abe]

Ive just arrived from work, but rest assured I shall be presenting an opinion about the advice that is issued on the forum and if any advice if taken could possibly lead to a prosecution on grounds of negligence.

At this stage all Im going to add is that we are " owed a common duty of care"

Negligence as a tort is a breach of legal duty to take care which results in damage to the claimant"

Winfield & Jolowicz 16th Ed

Now we have to look at this logically, as the internet forum/ discussion boards are a relatively new concept and as yet untested in the courts. We do not have precedent as a result to guide us.

But, supposing someone offers advice, and this advice if taken leads to injury or loss, who is liable??

Is the the person who offered the advice?
Is it the person who caused the injury?

It is very wide. The general rule however is that the person who causes injury or damage has a duty of care.

On my next posting I shall explore the extent to which the element that "propsed or offered the platform or vehicle for the tort to be committed becomes liable.

This is indeed a very intresting area and Im looking forward to delving deeper into it. I shall be discussing this with a senior practitioner in the law of negligence to gauge his view.

I shall report further in due course.

Abe

[slingblade]

If i told you to jump off a bridge would you do it?

An old question with particular relevance here i think. :rolleyes:
Any advice given in, what is in effect, a glorified chat room is not an instruction to do something. As such advice can not be deemed as contributory to poor working skills of any individual who harms himself acting upon it. The Health and safety act at work 1974 covers this i think.

[rbartlett]

Ive picked a member Mr.Bartlett who is a fantastic forum poster,..........

Although I have edited this slightly I feel for the good of the forum this should be made a sticky

Cheers

Richard

[LRAC]

Hello Mr.Bartlett sorry to use your name in one of my posts but what is a sticky to a newbie.:confused:

Kind regards
LRAC

[US Iceman]

Well it seems I missed this thread somehow over the last few days. What an excellent discussion.

One of the problems with providing answers to somones question is like getting a clear picture of the future through a crystal ball.

A lot of times the answer comes down to "it depends". Sometimes there is a single answer, other times the answer might be multiple choice.

The person asking the question HAS to know enough to be able to ask the right type of question, or, you run the risk of them getting hurt or continuing to change parts.

There is a large number of people wanting to do do refrigeration work that I think is based on getting rich or making a fast dollar. Helping these people is like playing with fire in my opinion, so I tend to stay at arms length.

If you don't get involved with them, you don't have to listen to their complaints when something does not work the way they think it should.

[winfred.dela]

Am also a newbie here but i will also post a question in almost same line with LRAC's:

Can the administrator request those that will register an explanation why one must be admitted to the Forum?

Am just thinking of another forum: sesUSA where you need to at least give some reasons why you need to be admitted to the forum.
Also, one must have to accept some conditions by the website owners before being able to post.

At least the moderators and administrator can evaluate the motive or
Just ask some question like
. . .What is a solenoid valve??? :D

This may not be approved by everybody but am just thinking aloud . . . :confused:

[The MG Pony]

Well it seems I missed this thread somehow over the last few days. What an excellent discussion.

One of the problems with providing answers to somones question is like getting a clear picture of the future through a crystal ball.

A lot of times the answer comes down to "it depends". Sometimes there is a single answer, other times the answer might be multiple choice.

The person asking the question HAS to know enough to be able to ask the right type of question, or, you run the risk of them getting hurt or continuing to change parts.

There is a large number of people wanting to do do refrigeration work that I think is based on getting rich or making a fast dollar. Helping these people is like playing with fire in my opinion, so I tend to stay at arms length.

If you don't get involved with them, you don't have to listen to their complaints when something does not work the way they think it should.

And you have the die hard hobbyist who are fighting to turn it into a life long career like my self, I have studied hard and don much asking. As such if I mess Up I will understand it is a failure on my part, not the one who gave me the info of which I asked thus to sue would be some thing a coward would do and some thing on aut to feel ashamed of, sadly far to few think this way.

This forum has been a very big help, and I keep learning knew stuff all the time, and has helped solidify my resolution to turn it into a in-depth life long field :)

So the info given has helped me to have a deeper understanding of the field, no matter what there will be some who will find some way to screw over a good group of people, the only way to spit in the faces of them types is to keep moving forward and help thoughs who need it.

[abdulazman]

LRAC,

Good question and inquisitive remark,
Ask yourself this question questions,
Can you teach a soldier to become an officer?
Or can you train a soldier to become an officer?
These questions sound similiar but poses a threat
when misunderstood.
By the way whats the motive behind your question?
Educating or discriminating.

[Abe]

A few more pointers, Ive arrived home early from office!!

The question I pose is, Does the forum pose a danger which has the capability of providing a possible act of negligence by a member.


Yes, the Forum is an effective mode of communication, judging by its success and the vast number of registered members. But , it is at the end of a day, a forum, its is not a proffessional body with legal authority governed by a proffessional body with rules on ethics and rules.

The internet is riddled with thousands of such discussion forums, the membership is largely uncontrolled and registration is quick and easy and often disguised.

At the end of the day, a member cannot rely upon the advice issued here and go to court citing that he only did what he did because someone told him to do so.

There is no case law to my knowledge to support any action.

Disclaimers however would provide a safety mechanism for the owners of the forum where the rules of membership clearly state that members should not rely on advice posted on these forums, and the duty to carry out functions, or operations are strictly controlled within their respective statutes and governing bodies wherein they reside.

Further , it should be contained within the rules of conduct, that every post is displayed "without prejudice" , so any information posted here cannot be relied upon in a court of law.

The internet is a new phenomenon that is providing completely new challenges and the laws appertaining to liability, criminality will be a long fraught out process.

The only headway has been on a few cases dealing with defamation.

Exclusion clauses will in future become an essential part of internet communications.

[Andy P]

The phrase "don't believe everything you read in the papers" came to mind reading this thread - applies even more to the content of any internet site. I went looking on the web for the origin of this phrase and couldn't pin it down. I found two other good ones though:
"If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read" Japanese proverb
"It is unfair to believe everything we hear about lawyers, some of it might not be true" Gerald Lieberman - sorry Abe!

I think that a clear statement of the "without prejudice" is a wise move for the site, but to keep a sense of perspective it is worth noting that the law is not usually as dumb as "the papers" would lead us to believe. Remember that they only print the "newsworthy" stuff.

cheers (and keep posting!)
Andy P

[bitswitch]

No we are not all guys. I am not a guy but yes a certified ammonia refrigeration technician. So if I am not the one lady to which Andy refers, he can now say 2. And while I am at it I would like to thank all on this site who helped me learn when I so despartly needed it. I thought all the things they helped me with they stressed safety. One individual was almost outraged that I was working with ammonia with so little experience, I am guessing that individual would be surprised to know I am certified now. Again I thank you all for helping me.

I'm with Tracy on this one, I also am not a guy, but I am a qualified refirig engineer, so Andy thats 3 ladies you can now refer to (if I am not the one!). A great big thankyou to everybody who I trained with as an apprentice many years ago now. I too have met many engineers along the way, the majority are great - by the way. I hope there will be many more years still to come.

[monkey spanners]

Lord Finchley tried to mend the electric light.
It struck him dead
And serve him right
It is the duty of a wealthy man
To give employment to the artisan.

H. Belloc

[US Iceman]

I must have missed this thread over the last few months.



The phrase "don't believe everything you read in the papers" came to mind reading this thread


That's very true. Another concern associated with this is "decisions by consensus".

For example, if you get two or more opinions that say the same thing this should not be assumed to be the only possible correct answer. This is what I was alluding to in an earlier post.

From a logical viewpoint you have to ask sufficient questions to be able to provide an answer directed towards possible remedies or actions.

Providing a simple, direct answer may not provide the desired result IF specific information was not available nor requested.

A perfect example of this is bubbles in a sight glass. Most will assume this indicates a need to add refrigerant. This does not make it true, even though the prevailing wisdom might state otherwise.

While people tend to like nice simple statements of "if you see bubbles add refrigerant" this could be the farthest thing from the truth that needs to occur.

Another old adage is:
A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

or another, which I think is attributed to Malcolm Forbes: With all thy getting, get understanding.

or possibly the best: Don't jump to conclusions.