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Jamie
01-08-2006, 12:56 AM
According to the New Zealand Government they say that R22 will be available here untill 2020!
Is this the case in Europe?.We still install R22 units down here and are quite readily available whats other peoples thoughts around the globe on this.

The MG Pony
01-08-2006, 04:21 AM
send the R-22 in to be roasted and use R-290, much nicer head pressure and over all lovely :)

Argus
01-08-2006, 08:55 AM
According to the New Zealand Government they say that R22 will be available here untill 2020!
Is this the case in Europe?.We still install R22 units down here and are quite readily available whats other peoples thoughts around the globe on this.


No. The EU has its own laws in common with many countries in advance of the schedule agreed in the Montreal Protocol.

HCFCs (R22 etc) are already being phased out in the EU.
It is no longer lawful to use it in new equipment and service supplies are being withdrawn starting in 2010 for new gas and a complete ban on use from 2015.
But we expect this to change.

There are already limits on production and import of HCFCs into the EU.

There are extensive posts recently about this in this forum, plus there are new laws in the EU on HFC emissions that came into effect this month.


.
________
Ferrari 195 Inter history (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Ferrari_195_Inter)

Larry2
06-08-2006, 05:37 PM
send the R-22 in to be roasted and use R-290, much nicer head pressure and over all lovely :)

Please tell me more. Can this be substituted into a system designed for R22? Are there any other considerations that make it more difficult to work with like there are with the higher pressure mixed gasses?

Andy
06-08-2006, 07:10 PM
Please tell me more. Can this be substituted into a system designed for R22? Are there any other considerations that make it more difficult to work with like there are with the higher pressure mixed gasses?


Larry :)
R290 is Propane, higher quality than cooking gas, but just propane with a flame retardant.

Behaves much like R22, except it needs (or should have) slightly thicker oil.

Appart from the BIG BANG theory it's OK:D

Kind Regards Andy:)

US Iceman
06-08-2006, 10:23 PM
Can this be substituted into a system designed for R22?


R-22 is pretty close to the same performance with refrigerant grade propane (R-290).

As Andy mentioned, you have to use a slightly higher viscosity oil, since the propane and most oils are soluble and miscible. The dilution effect that occurs can thin out some oils, which reduces the overall viscosity.

Also, depending on how much propane is contained in the refrigeration system you can find a requirement for all electrical devices to be explosion-proof and be intrinsically safe.

The MG Pony
06-08-2006, 11:00 PM
and you need way less of it then you would for R-22.

Johnny Rod
07-08-2006, 09:31 AM
R290 is Propane, higher quality than cooking gas, but just propane with a flame retardant.

Yep is higher grade than BBQ gas but no flame retardant added that I know of - unless you don't vac out all the nitrogen!

The MG Pony
07-08-2006, 06:58 PM
hehe for my play systems I use BBQ propane (Hey the system is built of scrap so no worry) and it gets to -46 with no load so and works peachy, will hold loads quite nicely and is stupidly cheap for playing with :D just charge it though a CO-83-ODF F/D for when using BBQ Propane and all seems to work.

But for a "real" system, best stick to code ;)

Andy
07-08-2006, 08:37 PM
Yep is higher grade than BBQ gas but no flame retardant added that I know of - unless you don't vac out all the nitrogen!


Care gas has flame retarder, they don't publish it but it is there.

Kind Regards Andy:)

phil robinson
07-08-2006, 10:40 PM
care 50 has flame retarder as well

Johnny Rod
08-08-2006, 09:43 AM
Er, not that I'm aware of, and I've just been working on the specs. Check this out too:

http://www.care-refrigerants.co.uk/hmpg/hmpgdisplaylev2.asp?idofuser=&catid=7&catid2=1&where=lev2

(It's in the FAQ section of the Care site, if the link doesn't work). These gases are most definitely flammable, and don't have anything in them other than 100% hydrocarbons. Where did you hear/read otherwise?

US Iceman
08-08-2006, 06:38 PM
I'm a little surprised about the flame retardant being put into hydrocarbon refrigerants. That is definitely a questionable additive.:confused:

I would like to see this in writing from someone before I believe that. It sounds like a marketing gimmick being told by a salesman.

Unless perhaps, the refrigerant is shipped with a fire extinguisher!:D

Andy
08-08-2006, 07:45 PM
Er, not that I'm aware of, and I've just been working on the specs. Check this out too:

http://www.care-refrigerants.co.uk/hmpg/hmpgdisplaylev2.asp?idofuser=&catid=7&catid2=1&where=lev2

(It's in the FAQ section of the Care site, if the link doesn't work). These gases are most definitely flammable, and don't have anything in them other than 100% hydrocarbons. Where did you hear/read otherwise?

The flame retarder just changes the ignition temperature up a bit. It does not stop it burning.
Then you can ignite R134a when released at pressure onto a naked flame.
Seen this informaton on the Care web site a couple of years ago.

Kind Regards Andy:)

cold stratum
08-08-2006, 09:52 PM
The flame retarder just changes the ignition temperature up a bit. It does not stop it burning.
Then you can ignite R134a when released at pressure onto a naked flame.
Seen this informaton on the Care web site a couple of years ago.

Kind Regards Andy:)

Andy,
Hi there, if the stufff burns whit a mixture of :[quote]
Is CARE flammable ?
CARE is flammable, just as LPG as used in mobile heaters, barbecues, etc. It is flammable when mixed in concentrations between 2% and 10% with air. Most other refrigerants are non-flammable. [end quote] the retarder seems to do noting here. :confused:
Propane and Butane don't need a lot of air to burn, natural gas is far more save for that matter.
An other bad thing about prop/but gas is that it is heavier than air, leaking gas will flow in crawlspaces. floors, and the belly of boats under the waterline!
It will build up and before our noses will smell it at 1.75 meters height it is to LATE. kaboom! :eek:

Should we not use it???.......NO use it but be aware.

cold stratum.

The MG Pony
09-08-2006, 02:34 AM
keep in mind it settles in a stale environment like that, but, in a house there is all ways convection currents and drafts and air moving that distributes the scenting agent along with the gass.

Johnny Rod
09-08-2006, 08:57 AM
Not sure about in the past (over 2 years ago), but CARE HC refrigerants don't have any additives. Unless you count the love added by us as we fill every cylinder! Don't think it'd help the ignition temp though.

cold as ice
18-08-2006, 11:44 PM
Hi lads
Ive been asked today to price up for the installation of a Nett 2100H split air condioning system. It was purchased recently off ebay by my customer , who now wants it installed.
As this unit uses R22 and may contain a pre charge and only having ever installed systems using R410, Im concerned could I be about to break any laws?
When I renewed my safe handling ticket earler this year , we were told on the course to stay well clear of R22, that it was being outlawed and would become obsolete in the near future.
Am I right to assume however that alternatives such as R22A can be used in older units which would have held R22?

Argus
19-08-2006, 09:59 AM
Hi lads
It was purchased recently off ebay by my customer , who now wants it installed.
As this unit uses R22 and may contain a pre charge and only having ever installed systems using R410, Im concerned could I be about to break any laws?



There was a similar question some while back and I gave an answer as best I could. It?s the second post in this thread:

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5448

But for the definitive view, please read the Regulation itself, 2037 / 2000. You need to look at Article 5 on HCFCs. For the UK law that defines the offences and penalties, read SI 2002 / 528





When I renewed my safe handling ticket earler this year , we were told on the course to stay well clear of R22, that it was being outlawed and would become obsolete in the near future.



R22 is being phased out in the EU - the answer to this is in the earlier thread and in article 5 of the regulation.





Am I right to assume however that alternatives such as R22A can be used in older units which would have held R22?



Never heard of R22A. What is it?

There are some ?drop-in? replacements that are available. They are legal at the moment in the EU as long as they don?t contain a Chlorinated component. Use them at your own risk ? most manufacturers won?t comment on the suitability in their systems.

.
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A/C student
19-08-2006, 06:37 PM
Thats odd, cause I have a bottle of R22 Sitting in my van right now which i picked up a few weeks ago, and a large R22 which I took from a site before it was handed over.

I picked up the R22 in case we had to use it on a close control system if there is a problem in the future which undoubtably there will be.

phil robininson I suggest you go to United Refrigerents. They are the company i work fors main supplier of refrigerent and parts. They still stock R22.

Brian_UK
19-08-2006, 08:07 PM
A/C, I think you are slightly missing the point of his question regarding installing an R22 unit.

Most of us have access to R22 but you need to be aware of the rights and wrongs of using it and installling new equipment which contains it.

The MG Pony
19-08-2006, 08:19 PM
Hence why I default to R-290 or mixes there of, it replaces R-22 nicely and lowers power consumption a smidgen by lowering head pressure and the discharge temp is a tad low improving over all condensing conditions!

You just cant beat the stuff nature gave you! :D

A/C student
20-08-2006, 12:10 PM
A/C, I think you are slightly missing the point of his question regarding installing an R22 unit.

Most of us have access to R22 but you need to be aware of the rights and wrongs of using it and installling new equipment which contains it.

So your telling me that the company I work for installed a close control system that uses R22 illegaly?

Argus
20-08-2006, 12:48 PM
So your telling me that the company I work for installed a close control system that uses R22 illegaly?


We are not telling you anything that you can't work out for yourself. But it?s crucial that you read the Regulation ? 2037 / 2000 so that you understand the issues.

As I understand it knowledge of the basics of this regulation is part of the various Safe Handling assessments that are now a requirement to use HCFCs.

It works like this:

Article 5 is the key. It says that the ?use? of refrigerant (meaning charging, recharging, removal, recycling.) is prohibited in:

Refrigeration systems MADE after December 31, 2001
Or
Air conditioning (ie cooling) systems under 100 kW, MADE after June 30 2002.
Or
Heat pumps MADE after December 31, 2003.


Here?s the definition of ?use? as it is in the regulation:

?use? means the utilisation of controlled substances in the
production or maintenance, in particular refilling, of products
or equipment or in other processes except for feedstock
and processing agent uses,

It?s not the sale of equipment that is illegal; it?s the act of charging controlled substances (in this case HCFCs) into them when they are new and subsequently during thier working life.

If you can prove that the equipment was made before the relevant date then there is no problem, but be prepared to prove it! There was a lot of controversy and discussion between industry and the UK Govt on this subject when this regulation was introduced about 6 years ago.

Once again, the offence is the defined ?use? of controlled substances as refrigerants in new system types produced in line with the dates above.

Please read the regulation!

.
________
medical marijuana card (http://mmjp.org)

A/C student
20-08-2006, 09:19 PM
ok ok I read through what you said, and i got a call this afternoon, while i might add im trying to spend sometime quiet time with my girlfriend. A guy i work with wanted to see where I was on Monday. Needed some help. He's knowledgable in alot of different fields, so I asked him if we for definate had installed any R22 systems in the past year. To what he recalls he doesn't think so.

Plus he's our main Commisioning guy so he should know lol

I guess I can rest easy to know I'm not going to get prosecuted or the company for that matter lol

Your saying we are going to have to prove the installation of systems that use R22, is pre 2002 damn thats a tough one. When you have idiots in the office who are just suit guys now who loose paperwork and then jump up and down about it, blaming everyone else. It's going to be hard to have the full dates and what not written down lol

Electrocoolman
22-10-2006, 12:25 AM
A man jumps out of a plane only to find his parachute won't open....on the way down he passes a man travelling in the opposite direction.....he shouts out "do you know anything about 'chutes"...."No" replies the man..."do you know anything about R290"...!!!!:D :D

The MG Pony
24-10-2006, 05:48 AM
A man jumps out of a plane only to find his parachute won't open....on the way down he passes a man travelling in the opposite direction.....he shouts out "do you know anything about 'chutes"...."No" replies the man..."do you know anything about R290"...!!!!:D :D



LOL took me a second to get the joke.

dan wong
06-09-2008, 12:10 PM
Replacement for R22
http://www.icorinternational.com/abouticor.html

refmech
06-09-2008, 02:04 PM
heres my two cents... dont want to work on potential bombs!!!!! there's too much beer to drink!
didn't this trade start out with these risks, have we come full circle?

dan wong
07-09-2008, 01:21 AM
heres my two cents... dont want to work on potential bombs!!!!! there's too much beer to drink!
didn't this trade start out with these risks, have we come full circle?


HEhehe...Experiment is mother of all invention.

dan wong
07-09-2008, 02:13 AM
heres my two cents... dont want to work on potential bombs!!!!! there's too much beer to drink!
didn't this trade start out with these risks, have we come full circle?



Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the tradewinds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain