PDA

View Full Version : Training Problem.







dogma
31-07-2006, 01:21 PM
Hi guys.

I am about to go into my 3rd yr RAC apprenticeship. I have completed my second tafe block but have had very little, if no hands on experience with many of the core subjects.
Am I wrong in believing that this is something which must be done to complete my trade?
My employer seems to believe so.
I was under the impression that a legally binding training contract was just that. I have paid my own fees to undergo training just to have it forced down my throat that these skills are something which I do not need.

Should I just plod along happy to be a TA and be happy to pass my college training with very little of the hands on experience??

I did have plans of finnishing my trade and attempting uni to become an engineer.

There are very few if no companies in the region who are willing to take on an apprentice on 3rd yr wages who has no practical experience. Theory is no prob but I have become very dissoluioned by the whole process.

Is it worth the drama of fighting to be trained in the 4yr contact period, or should I be contented to work, earn a wage and feel confident that in 4 yrs I'll have a Trade cert.

Or should I get out now?

regards

dogma.

SteveDixey
31-07-2006, 08:36 PM
Hi guys.

I am about to go into my 3rd yr RAC apprenticeship. I have completed my second tafe block but have had very little, if no hands on experience with many of the core subjects.
Am I wrong in believing that this is something which must be done to complete my trade?
My employer seems to believe so.
I was under the impression that a legally binding training contract was just that. I have paid my own fees to undergo training just to have it forced down my throat that these skills are something which I do not need.

Should I just plod along happy to be a TA and be happy to pass my college training with very little of the hands on experience??

I did have plans of finnishing my trade and attempting uni to become an engineer.

There are very few if no companies in the region who are willing to take on an apprentice on 3rd yr wages who has no practical experience. Theory is no prob but I have become very dissoluioned by the whole process.

Is it worth the drama of fighting to be trained in the 4yr contact period, or should I be contented to work, earn a wage and feel confident that in 4 yrs I'll have a Trade cert.

Or should I get out now?

regards

dogma.


Stick it out. Every college course feels the same, even when I did a City & Guilds technician course in the late 70's. If you get to Uni, even better for you.

One issue is money. Practical training at college, or any training provider for that matter, eats into resources and course fees. You cannot train as many people at the same time, you need consumables, etc, etc. There is also the safety issue if working with electrical gear and pressurised systems.

It should be up to your employer to provide you with the "real" hands-on training and most usually do that from the second year onwards, but you will usually only really start to "fly" in the third and fourth years. Talk with your employer regarding hands-on experience, as it can only benefit him in the end.

Steve

Andy
31-07-2006, 09:48 PM
It should be up to your employer to provide you with the "real" hands-on training and most usually do that from the second year onwards, but you will usually only really start to "fly" in the third and fourth years. Talk with your employer regarding hands-on experience, as it can only benefit him in the end.

Steve

Sorry Steve:o

I was on standby and getting called out to pack systems before being out of my first year, most of the guys in my day release class were similar. Probably wouldn't happen today with health and safety;) but a good apprentice should be capabile of service and installtion work after about a year of experience if he has the right stuff:)

On the other hand I know of guys who are apprentices for FIVE YEARS and still struggle when on there own.

It's down to ability, you can't teach ability.

Two years in you should be able to work un supervised on basic installtions and on service, especially with all the refrigerant handling coursess that we go through nowadays.

Kind Regards Andy:)

SteveDixey
31-07-2006, 10:14 PM
Sorry Steve:o

Probably wouldn't happen today with health and safety

That is the issue now. Most seem not to allow anyone under 18 on a factory site for any job, never mind fixing fridge gear. A lot of employers seem to restrict trainees to a workshop environment for another year after being released from a college environment. It is the insurers as much as anything.

And get this... a unit manager of a major engineering training accreditation provider come up with this one "We are concerned that a trainee gaining a XXXXXX certificate and subsequently causing an accident might cause repercussions for us as an accreditation body" I was so gobsmacked at that one I didn't have a response:mad:

Once I put the phone down I thought that if XXXXXX was so bloody worried they should stick with issuing certificates for needlework and answering phones. Sure enough, next year they started issuing awards to telephone answerers......... :rolleyes:


Steve

US Iceman
31-07-2006, 10:50 PM
Once I put the phone down I thought that if XXXXXX was so bloody worried they should stick with issuing certificates for needlework and answering phones.


I quite agree with you Steve. In today's legal happy environment anyone can be brought into court for anything.

If this training center has been providing instruction in refrigeration for some time, why are they paranoid about it now? Has one of their students been injured, or has an attorney found a new client?:rolleyes:

dogma
02-08-2006, 11:39 AM
So your recomendation is to stick it out?

I spoke to head management a couple days back and they seemed to be as bewildered as me as to why I'm not recieving the training and have been asked to attend their next meeting. So it seems that my "restricted input" to the company is worth something.

I am going to apply for a restricted refrigeration licence to allow me to legally install splitties so hopefully I can get some hands on after hours. (although i realise that its not rocket science).

Hopefully that will put me in good stead to be able to outsource experience.

I was thinking that a chinese based apprentice might be able to complete my training faster and at a lower cost. ha ha ha. Seems to be what most manufacturing companies are doing.


Hopefully I am better resourced at work in the near future and will prove my worth within our team.
other wise......Is anyone looking for an apprentice??:)

MadApprentice
09-08-2006, 03:25 PM
Dogma

I am currently at tafe and nothing has changed. I am lucky to have had a variety of experience, yet i struggle with the way they teach it at college. The college is unorganised and cannot even organise teaching timetables, let alone provide a well balanced training program for students. They dont seem to understand that the reason that people do a trade is so they can work hands on, and for some reason they think we will learn content by sitting in classroom looking at crappy slides. I dont know what the answer is. But the tafeblock of 7weeks certainly is a depressing and stressful time indeed. They tell you that if you fail your exam you may lose your job and so therefore you have wasted two years earning under $6 per hour.

I have nearly lost my temper at these "teachers" a couple of times, which would do no one any good, but its kinda hard to continue to be polite to these people when they call you dumb.

Does anyone outthere understand why the college seems to enjoy making life miserable for apprentices? I mean its not like we arent doing it tough already, seeing as we earn less money than the kids at maccas, and our work is much more difficult. Its like those guys have forgotten what its like (especially the guy who always goes on about how he earns $60 bucks per hour) to be apprentices. As.sholes

I dont know what the solution is, i have 4 weeks left to go, then hopefully life will return to normal - for another year.....

MadApprentice
09-08-2006, 04:05 PM
Hey dont drop out mate, the 3rd year block just deals with the electrical stuff, then just the capstone test, after that your 32bucks an hour on easy street, Dont give up

SteveDixey
09-08-2006, 04:08 PM
Dogma

I am currently at tafe and nothing has changed. I am lucky to have had a variety of experience, yet i struggle with the way they teach it at college. The college is unorganised and cannot even organise teaching timetables, let alone provide a well balanced training program for students. They dont seem to understand that the reason that people do a trade is so they can work hands on, and for some reason they think we will learn content by sitting in classroom looking at crappy slides.

I have nearly lost my temper at these "teachers" a couple of times, which would do no one any good, but its kinda hard to continue to be polite to these people when they call you dumb.

Does anyone outthere understand why the college seems to enjoy making life miserable for apprentices?



It is not in the teachers' interest to make the course a pain as it only makes their job more difficult. The things you see might be down to a variety of factors as I said earlier.

First, what does the controlling accreditiation body require of the college? The controlling body may be acting on feedback from employers as to what they want in courses as much as anything.

The controlling body may require the college to set out say 400 contact hours, during which time certain things must be covered. IMHO you can't duck theory if you want to be a success and progress in this trade but theory needs to be backed up with practice. Who is supposed to give you this practice according to learning contracts? The college or employers?

Has the college been asked to squeeze more from the resources it has? Money in industry is tight and that in turn has led to "more for less" demands placed on training providers by employers or goverment.

It sounds like the college is struggling to manage on the resources it has. Maybe time to spill the beans to a wider audience, or even just ask the college principal. You might get a straight answer:rolleyes:

Steve

MadApprentice
09-08-2006, 04:18 PM
Stevo

You are damn right, we are talking a typical australian government department. I understand what you are saying, but you would still think that they wouldnt force 6months of theory down your throat in 7 weeks.

Somtimes it seems though that the ex tradies enjoy watching apprentices struggle, when a mistake is made in the workshop they will either say go away and think about it, or yell and scream at you. whats the point of sending someone away to think about, when they have attempted a task and have stuffed it up. They need guidance not told to pizz off.

By the time you reach week 4 you have forgotten the content in week 1 because you are madly trying to remember the disadvantages of a perimeter induction unit etc. for the next exam.

Do you see what i mean?

I think its good they take it to the depths they do, but i mean i dont want to be an engineer i want to be a mechanic, thats what i signed up to do. They teach us about pipe sizing, i understand its a handything to knowhow to do, but isnt that the designers or engineers job to work out? I just want to install the damn thing.

They now run the exams on computer as opposed to doing written exams. This is a further disadvantage for students especially when you get one lously question wrong and it doesnt come down to your knowledge of RAC. But down to your grammar skills.

I suppose i am just sick of working bloody hard to earn crapmoney. I want it over and done with, it feels likes it taking forever.


I am sorry if i annoying you talking about this, but no one else will listen.

SteveDixey
09-08-2006, 04:40 PM
Stevo

but you would still think that they wouldnt force 6months of theory down your throat in 7 weeks.

Like I thought, someone trying to force a quart into a pint pot, the adminstrators kick the instructors who kick you type of approach when the pressure is on.


Somtimes it seems though that the ex tradies enjoy watching apprentices struggle, when a mistake is made in the workshop they will either say go away and think about it, or yell and scream at you. whats the point of sending someone away to think about, when they have attempted a task and have stuffed it up. They need guidance not told to pizz off.

Seen that as well, but rare in my experience. Most are teaching because they want to help, but there is some truth in the folk tale that those who can't hack it in the real world end up teaching, seeing it some kind of quiet backwater, except it isn't anymore...



I think its good they take it to the depths they do, but i mean i dont want to be an engineer i want to be a mechanic, thats what i signed up to do. They teach us about pipe sizing, i understand its a handything to knowhow to do, but isnt that the designers or engineers job to work out? I just want to install the damn thing.

But the money, and the progress above the herd of installers, is in fault finding. These are the guys that are in short supply. I can teach a joiner to fit splits, but if he is stuck, he'll struggle to fault find because he cannot see what is going on inside the pipes. Designers do get it wrong, or systems are "modified" and that is were the knowledge comes in.


They now run the exams on computer as opposed to doing written exams.

Computer based exams are usually multi-choice in the UK. They have started doing them for electrician competence certification. (I must admit that I feel grammar is something that must be reasonable, for the simple reason that in a written set of instructions, or in a logbook, poor grammar could get someone injured if instructions are mis-understood, but that is industrial plants and the like).

Steve

frank
09-08-2006, 07:58 PM
Hi MadApprentice

Sorry to hear that you feel you are having a hard time of it at college.

Learning is never easy.

Sometimes it comes easy and other times, well, you just don't get it. I know, I'm still learning.

Back in the early 90'sI went back to college to learn some more and it was a hard experience, being some 30 years since leaving school. I too thought - what are we learning this for as it seems we'll never need it. Believe me, whatever they teach you will need it at some point, maybe not to install a split, but as your career progresses and you move up the ladder then you will certainly appreciate the knowledge.

Don't forget the old adage - knowledge is power!

If you were installing a split unit and the client came across and asked - hey, could you just alter that so that we can do such and such? - without a full understanding of the systems operation and the theory behind the operation of the unit, I doubt you would be confident of offering a suitable answer/solution. You can't just say - sorry mate, I just fit 'em.

Aim higher in your chosen trade - you are never too old to learn.

MadApprentice
09-08-2006, 11:59 PM
Thanks for the advice, You are right, i do just have to get on with it and do it. No matter what i saythey arent going to change the courses.

Oh and by the way, to the original guy who started this thread, if you believe the company you work for isnt providing you wih enough practical experience youdo have the right to cancel the contract and move on. And i would have thought that peoplewould take on a third year before taking on someone brand new.

dogma
22-08-2006, 08:17 AM
Hey Mad Apprentice.

I hear Big Sam spat the dummie this block?

Mate if you think the block your in now is a pain....I was in the easter block. We lost a week of tafe, so we had to do it all in 6 weeks. The bloody domestitc theory was haned to us on a print out 1 day before the exam. Guess what happened. Half the boys fell over. Luckily I madd it through with only 1 resit. The bloody safety exam. 90% of us failed over one silly question. Do you check bleeding or breathing first. The teacher told us the wrong answer in class.

Guess what. They didn't rectify their fault and all 90% had to re sit.

How did you go on the cold room prac?

dogma
22-08-2006, 08:19 AM
Oh yeah.

I started getting more training at work, but its all testing new designs etc etc etc.

Been offered a job with an AC company. have 2 days to make a discission.

Tiger 05
28-08-2006, 01:38 PM
.



I am about to go into my 3rd yr RAC apprenticeship. I have completed my second tafe block but have had very little, if no hands on experience with many of the core subjects.
Am I wrong in believing that this is something which must be done to complete my trade?



IT will help



My employer seems to believe so.
I was under the impression that a legally binding training contract was just that. I have paid my own fees to undergo training just to have it forced down my throat that these skills are something which I do not need.


If your employer has hired you for a Traineship and they requier it for your work they should be paying TAFE fees



Should I just plod along happy to be a TA and be happy to pass my college training with very little of the hands on experience??


No get stuck in because if you just plod along is it really going to help you



There are very few if no companies in the region who are willing to take on an apprentice on 3rd yr wages who has no practical experience. Theory is no prob but I have become very dissoluioned by the whole process.


What region are you in ?




Is it worth the drama of fighting to be trained in the 4yr contact period, or should I be contented to work, earn a wage and feel confident that in 4 yrs I'll have a Trade cert.
Or should I get out now?



Keep it up when I finished my apprenticeship I didn't know a lot with hard work and teaching myself a lot 9 years later I am now a service manager.

Abe
29-08-2006, 07:16 PM
Stevo

You are damn right, we are talking a typical australian government department. I understand what you are saying, but you would still think that they wouldnt force 6months of theory down your throat in 7 weeks.

Somtimes it seems though that the ex tradies enjoy watching apprentices struggle, when a mistake is made in the workshop they will either say go away and think about it, or yell and scream at you. whats the point of sending someone away to think about, when they have attempted a task and have stuffed it up. They need guidance not told to pizz off.

By the time you reach week 4 you have forgotten the content in week 1 because you are madly trying to remember the disadvantages of a perimeter induction unit etc. for the next exam.

Do you see what i mean?

I think its good they take it to the depths they do, but i mean i dont want to be an engineer i want to be a mechanic, thats what i signed up to do. They teach us about pipe sizing, i understand its a handything to knowhow to do, but isnt that the designers or engineers job to work out? I just want to install the damn thing.

They now run the exams on computer as opposed to doing written exams. This is a further disadvantage for students especially when you get one lously question wrong and it doesnt come down to your knowledge of RAC. But down to your grammar skills.

I suppose i am just sick of working bloody hard to earn crapmoney. I want it over and done with, it feels likes it taking forever.


I am sorry if i annoying you talking about this, but no one else will listen.


Mad

When I was in Colonial Rhodesia I used to attend the training courses at Ajax Refrigeration in Graniteside.

I sat alongside the appies..........from Ajax and it was like a boot camp.

The appies got paid very little money, they had to "graft" their cotton socks off, and all the convos between them and the barking managers were laced with admonitions and expletives.

I found none of that when I arrived in England in 1984. Here was a more temperate climate with apprentices being shown more respect.

I see youre in Oz, which is akin to Rhodesia as it was then. Perhaps the trend, attitude towards appies is still prevalent .....

You just got to bear it for your 5 years or is it 4 years hard labour.......and then once youre a journey man........you can start baring your teeth!!!

:)

dogma
03-09-2006, 11:24 AM
Hi all.

Just an update on my training dramas.


I put my notice in last week. I start with a new company who specialises in comfort air conditioning.

They are willing to take me on as a third yr apprentice, pay my training fees at the same RTO and pay above award wages.

I just hope I don't let them down. 3 month probation.



I stoked but.

Dogma