Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?

[chilly]

I'm getting more and more calls from Jo Bloggs asking me to fit an ac unit they have brought from B&Q or E-Bay.

Not done any so far but am I just being a snob? Is there a way we can gain from this new trend?

Personaly I would rather size it correctly, Install good kit and look back after a hard days work and think "I did that"


Your thoughts...

[rbartlett]

no real gain as when you quote price they cry..

however make sure they understand 'no warrenty' and sign

cheers

richard

[Sir Josiah Sodd]

Why not?

Charge the going rate, plus any remedial work.

Whoever does the work, any electricl instalations will still need compliance with the new UK building control regulations and you should be hold the competence to issue the compliance certificates.

[mick2me]

If you look at the amount that are sold on eBay, there is a business opportunity there. If you don't take advantage of it someone will.

Yes you must make it clear that you are not responsible for warranty issues on the unit.

The only thing they should expect from you is that the work you carry out is Satisfactory.

As long as the connections that you make are sound, should it fail pressure test, they should still pay you for your work, as the fault will be with the unit.

BTW I have been informed that one seller on eBay is sellin units that run on R22 and not disclosing it!

[Larry2]

This is a chance to make a new customer. Turning down this work closes the door to future work. The man who takes this job will get the future work.

[Andy W]

I have installed a lot of these machines, I am actually going to look at one this morning in an internet cafe.

With resedential customers who want to save a few quid I tell them to mount the equipment and to provide the hole for the pipework, this as you know saves a lot of time then charge an hourly rate + travel + materials. I generally do conservatories and bedrooms at weekends when things tend to be a bit quieter.

A guy who I know who works for an wholesaler installs a lot of these machines for a £200 labour charge......cash!

[airefresco]

I´ve done a few of these. As long as you tell the customer you´re not responable for the warranty you should be alright. I´ve got work after the customer has bought one unit from a DIY shop or where-ever and then wants another and buys it from me. And if you do a good job they tell their friends.

[Smokey]

The increased number of units (split mainly) being sold for DIY installation is giving some people very real cause for concern. Having read many posts on here its clearly an increasing problem. The introduction of combination boilers into the heating market saw the same problem there, with changes to the law and Corgi registration coming in to protect the public (Ha,Ha) The large DIY stores however, have a lot of clout and there is still nothing to stop DIYers buying or installing their OWN gas boilers. The trade on the other hand, is subject to ever increasing training costs and regs/codes of practise that seem to be revised overnight. When we, as a company commissioned boilers for a leading manufacturer, we found even the worst cowboy firms were vastly better than most DIYers. (I'm not saying all ;) ) My veiw is that tighter controls are a double edged sword and can easily bite you on the a55.;)


I think it would be a good idea, because at least the unit will be connected and vacced before running it. If people have grief they will slag off domestic aircon to their friends etc. they won't blame their own dodgy work!;)

[stryker]

Having just bought a DIY Hinari kit I must admit I'll have a mitsi unit and installed by a professional next time.... to save the effort :-)

However many many trades work in areas where someone with the skills can DIY it.... such as I.T, decorators, mechanics, landscape gardeners.... need I go on?

What makes you any different? <pardon the indignity, just playing devils ad>

[Smokey]

The problem is from people who don't research the installation, think its simple and then have a go. I acn imagine DIYers using any old bit of copper they have lying around, maybe using the wrong fittings as well. The electrics also need to be correct. I have nothing against people who find out how to do a job and then fit it themselves to the same standard as a pro. The average DIYer will not have a vac pump, nor any nitrogen, gauges etc. ;)

[stryker]

Oh yes I agree its dangerous, but so is a poorly maintained car, although many would argue thats what the MOT is for. I always beleive in choice and am not for a nanny state, but thats another conversation all together.

I've made an interesting observation of this focus hinari diy unit I bought.

The restricted hiss noise of gas forced through a small valve has now gone from the two valves I opened.... however I still can hear the same noise coming from the rather clever connector that allowed me to join the two halfs of this pre-gassed system. So it seems buyers of these kits pay the price of diy by perhaps having a system that is not so efficient as I'm sure that connector is restricting the gas a little.

[mick2me]

The problem exactly Smokey, lack of equipment.

What do you recon it would cost a DIYer to buy the equipment just to install one unit?

[Smokey]

Even using cheap items off ebay, you are still talking £200-£300 for a vac pump+torr gauge. A manifold and gauge set plus hoses and then you should have a bootle of nitro+reg to leak test.

[sean241]

i think these unit are a rip off i've never touched one myself because if you buy cheap goods use get a poor product which won't last like a dakien or mits, and the DIYers start playing with things they shouldn't and gives a bad name to the industry when gas is lost!

[Franzfernando]

one point that nobody ever seems to touch on is the cost of running these units.Especially if they are not installed to a professional standard.
think of all that wasted electricity,of the extra pressure on the national grids during heat waves,think about those plug in portable units sitting near an open door or window in your local cafe.
this trend is unsustainable.....or sustainable at a large cost.
if somebody asks you to install a home kit or a second hand unit, advise them on the correct size of unit.show them how to maintain them.let them know of what else they can buy which have energy saving features that pay for themselves after a certain time.
educate them and challenge yourself at the same time.make all our lives a bit easier in the long run.

[mick2me]

And of course the best advice is,

Buy an Inverter...

[Makeit go Right]

I had a chap asking me to install a system he had bought off the internet, from Japan or somewhere. I checked the equipment and spotted it was R22.

So, it is worth asking the question over the phone before wasting your time going over to survey the site.

Also, this kind of customer will be a penny pincher type, normally, and tend to be a little more trouble and a little less markup than the normal install.

{But I do like the idea of having the customer cut the hole in advance of the install.}

[mick2me]

I Say!
Typecasting people who buy on eBay as pennypinchers!:eek:

Yes there is a seller on eBay selling hundreds of R22 units, I emailed him, asking what gas they contain. He replied that he did not know.

I am reliably informed that these 'NETT' units contain R22.

So whats happening to these and all the other aircon units sold on eBay. Sitting in peoples garages?

[Peter_1]

It's the same as going with a bag to the baker within it: flour, leaven and salt and you ask the baker if he can make a bread of it and he may even deliver the water for the whole recipe. ;)
Speaking of a big profit.



This is a behavior I scorn, mostly miserly people who can't have it that someone else is earning money.

Same for manufacturers supplying units direct to end-users. Infamous behavior.

[chemi-cool]

Hi guys,

I don't see any problem with installing units from Ebay, manufacturer or second hand as long as they are using the proper refrigerant and the customer can afford it.

Chemi:)

[Peter_1]

I have some proud left in my job and I find that I have to be paid for my experience and my knowledge.
If I could charge double wage/hour, then it should be OK, this should compensate for the loss on the margin on the equipment.

But peoples buying these units on Ebay and then searching for someone to install are also searching for the cheapest wage either.

So no, I don't go to the baker with the ingredients and asks him if he can make a bread of it and I don't give a raw fish to the fish seller and ask if he wants to clean it for me.
This will even not come in my mind daring to ask it.
This is for me something not done.

And that's because I find everybody has to live and earn his bread, but especially, I respect the knowledge of others and I want to pay for a good craftsmanship.

I like peoples who love their job, from which you can immediately see that they really live for it.

[davej]

It is so annoying that these people buy the systems direct, it does mean that we are missing out on the profit of the sale of the equipment yet we are saddled with the costs of correct traingin and registration for safe handling. selling these systems to untrained people along with selling these top up canisters of refrigerant to joe public is fundamentally wrong and undermines our industry.if you are a one man band working from home with low overheads working for a labour charge may be acceptable but for a small company with all the overheads associated wiht it you need to have some prifit from the spares and equipment. the government should stop the sale of refrigerant and eqiupment with refrigerant in to unskilled and un qualified people by the way of legislation
sorry to go one but this winds me right up (RIGHT UP)

[mick2me]

This must be a new sector of the market for you guys? It must have been fairly rare for domestic AC installs to be carried out in the UK until fairly recently. In the UK AC is a luxury as opposed to a neccessity.

I wonder what percentage of the market the domestic sector represents, and what change there has been of late.

Your not getting the sale on the units? The Ebay sellers are. They must be making some profit?, their not making any on the install?

Look carefully at some of the ads, there are full install packages too.

Better look closely at this 'New Market' there might be some profit in there if you look close enough.

Perhaps your glass is half full not half empty...

[frank]

Looks like I'll have to increase the cost of your install then Mick after reading these last few posts :D

[mick2me]

Looks like I'll have to increase the cost of your install then Mick after reading these last few posts :D

Where the grimace Icon? :p

Just a comment on the changing, or perhaps developing market, depending on how you look at it.
I think i'm in the wrong business:rolleyes:

[Electrocoolman]

Below is a copy of an email sent to an Ebay seller:
(mailsaleblues) who is selling Samsung units.

"Do you realise that your information regarding DIY installation is instructing people to break the law? It is illegal to cause any discharge of refrigerant gas (including environmentally friendly gases) to the atmosphere. You state that 'no vacuum pump is required' and you 'can expell the air' from the pipes.
This is just not the case. A vacuum pump IS required to get rid of moisture as well as removing air. As a professional, this information that you supply is misleading, encouraging illegal discharge and will hasten the demise of the unit and compressor."

How can we bring pressure on these 'rogue traders'

....any ideas?

Maybe better posted under "ebay didn't like it" thread....only saw that after posting this so maybe someone can move this posting?

[mick2me]

Dead right.
If they had a shop, it would be a trade descrition issue, I am sure. Since my posting on eBay. (One auction was chopped because I was not actually selling anything) there has been an improvement in information given by some sellers. The 'NETT' salesman, continues to peddle his R22 units!

[Electrocoolman]

Had a reply to my above email:

"Thanks a lot for your information, that is serious.
Are you an installer? The reason I'm asking - our custumers from Midland are looking for installer."

There might be some work out there if needed

Adrian

[mick2me]

The refrigerant side, best left to the experts, which is not my area. Seems that most here work mainly in the commercial sector, though there may be takers. Good Luck.

[Makeit go Right]

Below is a copy of an email sent to an Ebay seller:

"Do you realise that your information regarding DIY installation is instructing people to break the law? It is illegal to cause any discharge of refrigerant gas (including environmentally friendly gases) to the atmosphere. You state that 'no vacuum pump is required' and you 'can expell the air' from the pipes.
This is just not the case. A vacuum pump IS required to get rid of moisture as well as removing air. As a professional, this information that you supply is misleading, encouraging illegal discharge and will hasten the demise of the unit and compressor."

How can we bring pressure on these 'rogue traders'

....any ideas?



I think the target should be eBay.

I recall a situation where an eBayer was selling pirate software and I took it up with eBay, info'ing copies to Microsoft. They closed the account of that individual.

{Possibly they also let him open up a few hours later, granted.}

So, if you emailled eBay with all the details, and info'ed a few interested persons......oooh, maybe Inst of Refrig, a few police, few Gov people, esp green-types. That kind of pressure will cause something to happen inside eBay, I am sure. Afterall, they are marketting this illegal traffic.

[Eeram]

In a situation like this, you are actually sitting between the devil and the deep blue sea!

If you decline, there won't be jobs in the future from this client.

If you accept, you are sitting with a unit that is either undersized, or crap that can fail any minute! (Wait for the call to fix it!)

Being in the refrigeration/air conditioning business for about 22 years, i will decline.

Just remember that you are not a parts fitter, but a technician with experience!

I would like to get paid for what I know, not what I am doing.

Old Refrigeration Technicians never die, they just leak out!

[mick2me]

Is this still going?

Your not going to get a lot more work from a domestic user anyway? But the repair costs on that chinese unit aint gonna be cheap!

There does not seem to be much quality stuff on ebay at the moment, (one gets fussy when one has a Daikin:rolleyes:) It's doing a good job too, keeping us warm this (UK) summer!

There are some INVERTER BERGDORF Air Con 12K BTU Air Con (DIY) Do It Yourself No Vac Pump No engineer required. Yeh Whatever?:cool:

And some installers getting on the bandwagon offering full install, though I suspect that prices may be for back to back installation.

Anyway, I'm off to Las Vegas tomorrow to do some real aircon spotting...

[The MG Pony]

In a situation like this, you are actually sitting between the devil and the deep blue sea!

If you decline, there won't be jobs in the future from this client.

If you accept, you are sitting with a unit that is either undersized, or crap that can fail any minute! (Wait for the call to fix it!)

Being in the refrigeration/air conditioning business for about 22 years, i will decline.

Just remember that you are not a parts fitter, but a technician with experience!

I would like to get paid for what I know, not what I am doing.

Old Refrigeration Technicians never die, they just leak out!

I agree with the first sentence, but this is where we part ways.

If we do not install it some yahoo will, whom will make it worse for both the customer and the environment, how ever we should make the customer well aware of the poor choice they have made in ordering such a unit this way! Long as you have it in writing they under stand there is no warranty of any sort, and most certainly no promise it will work well then go ahead and install it the proper way! This I think is the logical solution.

[Lowrider]

Even Vaillant is selling split units and also Zibro (from the petroleum heaters!).

Zibro sells from diy centres across holland for prizes beyond believe! And advertize they have made prize deals with installers for "nice" prizes!

Although there is a market for these units I wouldn't burn my hands on one! A friend of mine wouldn't listen and did an instal anyway, you wouldn't believe the sh*t he had, even though he was clear on the waranty part before! Last time he did a diy unit!

Just had a read through the site of zibro. They even advertize that with their "easyConnect" you wouldn't even need a certified installer! Just cut an 8 cm hole in the wall for the pipes!

The folde is in dutch, but the pictures say enough! http://www.climateshop.nl/klimaat-shop.aspx?w=easyconnect

[taz24]

I'm getting more and more calls from Jo Bloggs asking me to fit an ac unit they have brought from B&Q or E-Bay.

Not done any so far but am I just being a snob? Is there a way we can gain from this new trend?

Personaly I would rather size it correctly, Install good kit and look back after a hard days work and think "I did that"


Your thoughts...

Personaly I'm not bother'd.
Equipment will always vary in quality.
I always insist in instaling to a good standard.
I would always garentee my work.
If the customer wants me to install cheap quality equipment then I will install it for the customer but my price will not change and I make sure that the customer knows and understands that my work is garenteed but his equipment is not.

taz

[Karl Hofmann]

I'll always guarantee my work but will always point out that what they have bought is a piece of junk and will always calculate the heat load for the room just to show the customer, if they wish to go ahead then I will charge exactly what I would charge for the installation of one of my own pieces of equipment. I would also tell them just how much I would charge for the correctly sized Tosh inverter and then back it up by showing how quiet my little demo unit is..The customer then has the choice.
Whenever I'm asked to fit one of these El Cheapo units I always use B&Q as an example, If B&Q units are so good, then why do they cool their offices with Toshibas?...Gives them something to ponder on ;)

[completehvac]

Personally we refuse to get involved in installing any equipment not sourced through proper distributors, as its rather irritating that we have to all obtain safe handling certificates, specialist insurances, produce handling procedures and the likes of b&q are just getting school leavers to move the things around and transporting on there own haulage with no trained staff.
In addition how many people wont attempt to install themselves, we have had numerous calls from householders who have attempted install and then ring us when they get into difficuilty.

[Jimbo!]

It surprises me that no-one is making 'hydronic' systems for the DIY market that can be connected with water. Surely that is the way forward for the DIY market?

BTW I've DIYed a couple of systems myself. I did by a cheap set of guages (~£30), hired a pump (£35) but did not pressure test. Has been OK though.

[Grizzly]

Personally we refuse to get involved in installing any equipment not sourced through proper distributors, as its rather irritating that we have to all obtain safe handling certificates, specialist insurances, produce handling procedures and the likes of b&q are just getting school leavers to move the things around and transporting on there own haulage with no trained staff.
In addition how many people wont attempt to install themselves, we have had numerous calls from householders who have attempted install and then ring us when they get into difficuilty.

I have just been on the B&Q Website and there is no mention of any install details.Just the option to buy!
I stopped short of actually buying a unit. There not cheap and I have never heard of the "Airforce" brand. Presumeably Chinese and imposible to get spares for?
Is it not now illegal for anyone to Install without a CITB or C&G safe handling Certificate? (Jimbo take note... )
Anyone know whats actually being stated once one is purchased?
Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Jimbo!]

B&Q sell two types - Pro install, not suitable for DIY written all across them, and self-install, with a Deloghi style click-clack connector and flexible lines.

[mick2me]

My introduction to this forum was after seeing an airforce unit on ebay @ a local appliance warehouse.
It was obviously a return by someone who could not fit it.
I sussed out that it was pretty cr4p! and gave it a miss.

I always do lots of research before I buy anything, and realised that there were few brands that were held in high esteem here.

Eventually I sniped a brand new Daikin unit on eBay
(which cluttered my dining room for some weeks.)

Local trade retailers were most unhelpful re other bits.

Eventualy a kind soul took pity on me amd installed it. :)
I did not expect a guarentee, but had every confidence in the work carried out.

That was October 2006, its still ticking over with no problems.

[frank]

Nice to see you back on here and posting Mick :)

[Daikin=Overated]

THIS POST IS KILLING ME!!:mad:

Don't take this the wrong way chaps, but surely these new Building Regulations, Building Compliance, Part P, Seventeenth Edition etc, etc are being enforced for the sole reason that apparently everyone seems to be overlooking here...........that is to eliminate sh*te workmanship from unqualified people who endanger lives, and prolong a greener world for the rest of us by assisting in installing this cheap kit over Inverters.

Some of this equipment I've seen barely meets the kite mark in this country-I've refused to touch this rubbish, so why isn't anyone else? I simply wouldn't associate my name against it. Ebay as a business are a disgrace for not regulating the sale of this equipment!

Theres clearly loads of people on this forum who are installing these splits with the "well I'm not honouring a warranty-therefore it's not my responsibility" chat. Seriously, not to overlook the environmental cost putting this EBAY PAP on the wall in the first place is having, I wonder what your attitude would be if one of these splits caught fire and burnt a house down??
Fine, it's a little far fetched you might think, but it happens-twice in my area last summer alone. One entire family wiped out because somebody thought you could just fit a 13a plug on the end of split system and away it goes!

As I say, no offence intended to any person/s in the above thread but, if you can't sign the job off in accordance to these new Part-P electrical regs at the very least, let alone knowing your Seventeenth Edition I.e your competent to deal with electrics, can sign work off once fully tested (even when spurring off an existing electrical install!!) Then why the hell are you being approached by the client irrespective of how tight fisted they are for parting with cash on Ebay in the first place??? It's not the point, you should tell them to go fit it themselves.

As an engineer you have a responsibility beyond the temptation of getting paid cash that evening. Think about it whilst the rest of us are shelling out a small fortune trying to do the right thing, undertaking the courses, getting qualified, and signing jobs off legitimately. What's the point when so many others defy the law and sidestep every reg in the book. Sorry, but it's bound to wind the rest of us up the wrong way!

Now shoot me down in flames for airing my views-true forum style!

[mick2me]

Eh Up Frank :)

Daikin=Overated :confused:
(I do like an unbiased username in a forum)

Part P? does that apply? I thought that was bathrooms and kitchens?

I'v now done the risk assessment, and placed a fire extinguisher next to the unit.

Always gonna be an emotive subject this eBay thing.

I must take a look to see what CR4p ebay are currently listing.

Incidentally, I posted an ebay listing advertising a forum
specually set up to inform and warn ebay buyers
about the dangers of certain units for sale ie. R22 :eek:

The listings got pulled by eBay. I wonder why? :confused:

[Karl Hofmann]

Not going to shoot you down because you are right.., However provided that the equipment that they supply from wherever is installed correctly and complies to the regulations, then I can see no problem, if the compressor grinds to a halt as my van leaves the drive then provided that I have fitted the equipment correctly, it is a warranty issue that the customer must take up with the manufacturer or supplier.

The principal of the regulations such as Part P and the like are indeed noble but the good and conscientious sparkies are being penalised.. They already have the equipment to test and the knowlage of the regs but must further pay a governing body to check their work whilst at the same time the fly by nights go unchecked, unpoliced and under cut the genuine sparks by a huge margin driving the sparks out of business.. It is human nature for people to go for the cheapest price. I know of a sparks who has forgotten more than most registered guys will ever know and yet he refuses to register on principal..He knows more that the people who are likely to inspect his work and that really puts his back up, it is a job that he has done all of his working life and ain't gonna be pushed around by some little snot.
Quite frankly I too am tired of new and neverending requirements for me to continue doing what I already know.. Yesterday I spent my time sitting in a classroom proving that I know how to work my flue gas analyser.. a further requirement to be CORGI registered..

[Gary]

Let's change the scenario a little. The homeowner buys a domestic refrigerator on eBay. He wants you to plug it in and hook up the water for the icemaker. You guarantee only that it is plugged in properly and the water lines don't leak.

Will you do it? If not, why not?

The refrigerator stops working, he calls the manufacturer and the manufacturer calls you.

Will you fix it (under warranty)? If not, why not?

Change that to a window shaker. Will you do it? If not, why not?

How is the situation any different for a domestic split A/C?

Will you hook it up? Will you repair it? If not, why not?

[The MG Pony]

indeed he finds a cheap a/c good on him, they get to live with the crap and if the pain and agony is worth the 200 extra he ended up paying for shipping thats their prob, I'll make sure it don't leak and meets all hook up codes, the rest is their night mare!

if the unit is defective mark it as such tell them they been rpped off and head on home to the shop/

[eggs]

e

One entire family wiped out because somebody thought you could just fit a 13a plug on the end of split system and away it goes!



Well it wasn't the split plugged into the wall that caused the fire!
If you wanted to, you could put a 10kw inverter on a 13a plug. With an average 10a start current and a FLC of about 10a. Why not?
Forget about tripping RCD's, 16th edition and building regs for a moment and tell me why (electricaly) a unit that uses less power than a 3kw electric kettle can not have a plug on??

Eggs

[Jimbo!]

I read that air conditioning is specifically excluded from part-p?

Anyway the thing is, fitting these oneself there is such a huge cost differential between that and the real thing. £250 for a 3.5kW split, and they do work (probably not for very long, lol).

Re refrigerant leaks. This is obviously an environmental concern. But, a typical small split has less than 1kg of R407C in it ~~ 1 tonne CO2 equivalent. There is nothing whatsoever to stop me driving around in my car all the time, and a beat up old 535i fireing on 3 cyclinders at that, and yet refrigerant gets a hard time?

What about new cars? Every single new car will, with certaintly, leak it's entire load of R134a to the envionrment at some point in its life. OK so that's why we'll be going over to CO2 in them in a couple of years, but again no-one blinks an eye when buying a new car now or in the past.

Please, I'm not disagreeing with any of the above - just trying to put things in perspective!

Cheers
Jimbo.

[Karl Hofmann]

Of course a car will leak....It is designed to.. Anyone who tells me that a major car manufacturer is not designing a car to leak when they secure aluminium components with steel clips and brackets in an area where ingress of salt water is to be expected is clearly on planet Zog..

Far too many of these new regulations are invented by ex middle managers who simply wish to make a living off the back of folk who actually work for a living and I for one am on the verge of rebelling.. In the last few months I have had to attend a course so that I can comply with Part L of the building regs.. So I now know to fit a heating system with TRVs, timer and roomstat... £180+ VAT plus a day off work, a course on flue gas analysers, so I now know where to stick my probe.. Clearly I am incapable of reading the manufacturers instructions.. £180+VAT plus a day off work and am just about to embark on an upgrade course to the 17th edition of the wiring regs.. another £120 odd quid plus exam fee.. THEN I must then register with someone who will check my work at random times... If I didn't bother with all of this crap, then no one would know, no one would care and the chances of being pulled up would be almost Zero.. Does anyone know of any illegal sparky who has been punished..or even warned? NO 'cos the powers that be are all too busy making sure that the professionals have their paperwork just so and are too busy counting their fees for doing Jack :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Rant over!

[Daikin=Overated]

Well it wasn't the split plugged into the wall that caused the fire!
If you wanted to, you could put a 10kw inverter on a 13a plug. With an average 10a start current and a FLC of about 10a. Why not?
Forget about tripping RCD's, 16th edition and building regs for a moment and tell me why (electricaly) a unit that uses less power than a 3kw electric kettle can not have a plug on??

Eggs

Who knows....I'm not a fire investigator but I'd say a stuck relay on the compressor side of things and ultimately failure of the protective device somewhere along the line most likely killed them. God rest there soles.

Maybe the installer failed to check the supply circuit to ensure it had it's own suitably rated MCB, maybe he put it on a spur via the 20 or 30 amp ring main and the split tried pulling 20-30 amps of fault current through a 1.5core cable, intern fusing the live pin and causing a fire-could have been many things to be fair, but the plug was found to be the source of the fire I do recall as they have been in sooooooooo many incidents alike. Or maybe it's coincidence.

3 pin plugs get really toastie when underload let alone nearing overload, especially if fitted with an incorrect fuse size, and undersized cabling.

Remove the plug and touch the live pin next time you plug in a portable cooler or similar for 20mins let alone 24 hrs that those non the wiser do over the summer and you'll appreciate how vulnerable plugs are. Then do the same with the 10KW inverter.

[mick2me]

Who knows....I'm not a fire investigator but I'd say a stuck relay on the compressor side of things and ultimately failure of the protective device somewhere along the line most likely killed them. God rest there soles.


Well as an electrician in a former life, and currently a CSI,
and a certifed Fire Investigator, I would be interested in
hearing about the above case?
(It would be the first time in this forum, that I would
actually be qualified to comment) :rolleyes:

There are still hundreds of units of various levels
of quality, being soled, sorry sold on eBay. Where
are they all going? Who's installing them?

Talking about Quality, one of these eBay buyers rings
you up and says they bough a nice cheap NETT, R22
unit. (from whatever source), put the plug on it ready,
and mounted the outside units with some number 10
scews and rawlplugs, Will you do the fridge side?
Of course you wont.

He tells you he bought a Daikin, wired it to the regs,
and mounted it securly, will you pipe it and gas it for
him. I am sure you will be happier. At the end of the
day, its your choice.

He's done the donkey work for you, you do the
specialised work you trained for. A bit like a bricklayer
and labourer, if you like.

Do corgi gas fitters argue about wether they should
fit ovens and combi boilers that they did not supply,
and worry about, the manufacturer contacting them,
when it breaks down?

[mick2me]

3 pin plugs get really toastie when underload let alone nearing overload, especially if fitted with an incorrect fuse size, and undersized cabling.


A 13a plug top in the uk should cope adequately with quite an excess of the load for which it is designed to carry. But the close protection of the cartridge fuse will cause it to fail on overload before damage can occur to the plug.

Overheating in my experience is usually caused by bad contacts or connections within the plug top. the weakness in the UK plug top design is the connection on the cartridge fuse, which relies on the spring contact with the fuse to make the electrical circuit. Often heat damage can be seen in this area when the plug top carries a high load for extended periods of time. If the current draw is not in excess of the rated fuse it will not fail under these conditions.

If its only the live pin that gets warm, suspect a poor connection on the live pin. In the case of a long term high load, both pins may get equally warm, but the plug design should dissipate the heat, as it is designed to carry in excess of 13amps.

In the case of undersized cable being used, the whole cable will warm up, particularly if coiled.

[frank]

Well it wasn't the split plugged into the wall that caused the fire!
If you wanted to, you could put a 10kw inverter on a 13a plug. With an average 10a start current and a FLC of about 10a. Why not?
Forget about tripping RCD's, 16th edition and building regs for a moment and tell me why (electricaly) a unit that uses less power than a 3kw electric kettle can not have a plug on??

Eggs
From memory, I'll check if required, BS7671 does not allow 13amp plug tops to be used for Fixed Equipment. Split type A/C is classed as Fixed Equipment.

[Jimbo!]

I don't understand that reg - because it also increases the fault disconnection time from 0.4s to 4s.

[frank]

I don't understand that reg - because it also increases the fault disconnection time from 0.4s to 4s.
How so Jimbo?
Surely, the fault disconnection time is determined by the type of MCB/RCD - not by how the unit is connected?

[Jimbo!]

permissable disconnection time, I meant.

[eggs]

Forget about tripping RCD's, 16th edition and building regs for a moment and tell me why (electricaly) a unit that uses less power than a 3kw electric kettle can not have a plug on??

Eggs

Frank, please re-read.

Eggs

[frank]

I hear what you are saying Eggs.
Electrically speaking, a 13amp plugtop fuse should be able to handle upto a 3kw load at mains voltage.
The problem comes when you go into a customers premises and carry out work that does not comply with BS7671.
Although it is not yet included on the Statute Books and therefore not law in the UK, if anyone was electrocuted from one of your installations and died, there is no defense in law. You will be charged with manslaughter.
If you can prove that your installation complied with BS7671 at least you have a defense in law should anything untoward happen.
Hence, this is why people design and install to meet the requirements of BS7671

[nike123]

Here in Croatia, we have lots of cheap Chinese aircon (250-300 pounds) which you buy in hypermarkets. When summer cames, there is huge increase in demand for this crap and teams of "split type airconditioner fitters" (mostly two guys with some basic tools and without vacuum pumps etc. and old VW Passat caravan) are rising as mushrooms after rain. They work only 2,5-3.5 kW splits, no service, no guarantee, mostly up to 2 meters of pipe length. One team mount up to 300 units in short time (2-3 month) and, after summer season, they end up with at least 30 pound each in pocket for every split instalation(1 instalation is charged about 90-110 pounds material included). That is 9000-12000 pounds tax free. That is also 2 year salary for skilled worker here.
Now you see that your dilemma is pointless. Whenever you got good opportunity to make good money go for it, because someone else will do that instead of you.

[Jimbo!]

everyones money is just as good :cool:

[markacs]

i had a customer that decided that he will buy a new compressor for a split unit and ask me to install it for him to save me the hassle.
this bit him back badly!!!!!!
he is not known to the suppliers.we buy loads of goods and get trade discount!
the price that he paid for the compressor was 30% more than i would of sold it to him for with our 35% mark up.
life is tough if you are an idiot

[Grizzly]

Of course a car will leak....It is designed to.. Anyone who tells me that a major car manufacturer is not designing a car to leak when they secure aluminium components with steel clips and brackets in an area where ingress of salt water is to be expected is clearly on planet Zog..

Far too many of these new regulations are invented by ex middle managers who simply wish to make a living off the back of folk who actually work for a living and I for one am on the verge of rebelling.. In the last few months I have had to attend a course so that I can comply with Part L of the building regs.. So I now know to fit a heating system with TRVs, timer and roomstat... £180+ VAT plus a day off work, a course on flue gas analysers, so I now know where to stick my probe.. Clearly I am incapable of reading the manufacturers instructions.. £180+VAT plus a day off work and am just about to embark on an upgrade course to the 17th edition of the wiring regs.. another £120 odd quid plus exam fee.. THEN I must then register with someone who will check my work at random times... If I didn't bother with all of this crap, then no one would know, no one would care and the chances of being pulled up would be almost Zero.. Does anyone know of any illegal sparky who has been punished..or even warned? NO 'cos the powers that be are all too busy making sure that the professionals have their paperwork just so and are too busy counting their fees for doing Jack :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Rant over!
Karl
You may have raised some good and valid points there? Even if they may not be politically correct.
I like many others have gone with the "Flow" Complying with the steady stream of Certificates / requirements needed.
Innocently thinking that it is for the good of us all!
Sadly the Stream is now becoming a torrent. But the real problem is I am now being expected to get even more to just stand still. "YOU NEED IT!" They say.
WILL I GET A PAY RISE ONCE I HAVE IT?
I don't think so.
It is all getting very interesting and I feel the 2 teir system is here for a long time yet.
I suspect we all will comply eventually. But I don't expect there to be a rush to do so. Why would you?
OK if your Company is going to pay you do it.
It is getting difficult to swim through it all though isn't it.
Another thing that seems to be happening here in UK.
Is the work is becoming more varied and less specific. We used to specialise in Industrial & Chillers.
Now I am just as likely to look at say a bottle chiller.
For me that's one of the reasons why this forum is so important.
Cheers Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[mick2me]

i had a customer that decided that he will buy a new compressor for a split unit and ask me to install it for him to save me the hassle.
this bit him back badly!!!!!!
he is not known to the suppliers.we buy loads of goods and get trade discount!
the price that he paid for the compressor was 30% more than i would of sold it to him for with our 35% mark up.
life is tough if you are an idiot

Hello Mark.

I see nothing changes around the world.
In England we have a saying (perhaps elswhere too)?
"Theres one born every minute" :D
(one = idiot/sucker etc.)

If were talking about eBay, its not unusual to see
people buying and paying more than retail price. :eek:

Though this thread has developed also into discussions about UK Regs, an important subject in itself. Could do with the topic splitiing? :confused:
Mr. Moderator?......Wheres that Daikin Guy?

[frank]

Mr. Moderator?......Wheres that Daikin Guy?
More than likely he's in the PUB Mick :D

[Karl Hofmann]

Karl
You may have raised some good and valid points there? Even if they may not be politically correct.
I like many others have gone with the "Flow" Complying with the steady stream of Certificates / requirements needed.
Innocently thinking that it is for the good of us all!
Sadly the Stream is now becoming a torrent. But the real problem is I am now being expected to get even more to just stand still. "YOU NEED IT!" They say.
WILL I GET A PAY RISE ONCE I HAVE IT?
I don't think so.
It is all getting very interesting and I feel the 2 teir system is here for a long time yet.
I suspect we all will comply eventually. But I don't expect there to be a rush to do so. Why would you?
OK if your Company is going to pay you do it.
It is getting difficult to swim through it all though isn't it.
Another thing that seems to be happening here in UK.
Is the work is becoming more varied and less specific. We used to specialise in Industrial & Chillers.
Now I am just as likely to look at say a bottle chiller.
For me that's one of the reasons why this forum is so important.
Cheers Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Ha! Grizzly... I'm afraid that I have also given up on going with the flow on being politically correct.. It is a disgusting "Lets not hurt anyones feelings" import from our long suffering cousins from across the pond... If I see stupidity then I will say so..Similarly I would expect someone to tell me if I was being a fool... PC ends here!!!
The only thing that the customer is interested in is the bottom line, a while ago I was invited to quote for ac at a group of Accountants who have their offices next door to my pals office.. Naturally I quoted for decent quality Tosh, fitted correctly and the electrics done by a local contractor since they were keen to have certificates and they stressed that they wanted a quality job.. It cheeses me off every time I drive past those offices because although the units are OK (Samsung) the pipework and cables simply run from the units to the sofit board with no support what so ever and no effort has been made to even make them straight..The pipes just dangle and move in the breeze...So that is quality eh? I have striven over the years to always do the next job just a little bit better than the last, have kept up with legislation and all required certification but this has confirmed to me that this is a total and complete waste of time.. the cowboys will screw you every time so although we may go to a customer all smug with an arm full of certificates, qualifications and ability, the crooks will win every time.. I will continue to do small ac work if I am asked by a customer and will also do a little automotive work on my drive but will now no longer actively pursue it as there is better money to be earned from my CORGI registration:mad::mad::mad: