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shylockw
11-07-2006, 05:22 AM
Hello friends:
I am a R&D engineer in the supermarket refrigeration field. Now, I'm investigating each supermarket refrigeration controller's Brands and specification. There are AK2 for Danfoss, CPC for Emerson and Novar for UK in China(Used for Carrefour, Wal-Mart,RT and Auchan supermarket).
Could you provide me some new controller for supermarket refrigeration application in your country or region? Maybe, I can finished a good market investigation.
Many Thanks.

NoNickName
11-07-2006, 10:23 AM
Dixell http://www.dixell.com

shylockw
11-07-2006, 12:20 PM
Dixell http://www.dixell.com

First, Thanks for your reply.
But i think that Dixell is only fitful for the small refrigeration application(eg. one or two small cold store), as well as elliwell, Every control and Carly. (My god, Italy is a paradise for small refrigeration controller:D ).
Else, Wal-mart's supermarket will select the central controller which controls 100 AI (temperature or pressure sensors). My investigation is centrallized on the this kind central controller.
Could my friends recommend some new brands?:confused:

Toolman
11-07-2006, 02:35 PM
Dixell , Danfoss , Carel are all fine controls and can be daisy chained together back to your "central controller" If one fails it doesnt take out all the others . As far as Central control , do you mean Rack or Pack controller which is really just a fancy pressure control for multiple compressor system . The old CPC control was central and all systems ( cabinets, rooms ) could be controlled from one device plus the staging of the compressors etc , but when it failed - oh boy get busy making the systems operate before the stock is stuffed !
Experience has taught us not to hang everything off one item

shylockw
11-07-2006, 04:02 PM
Experience has taught us not to hang everything off one item:eek:

OH, the above is a good advise. "Every coin has two side",the central control will has a good central management and low price.

For refrigeration system, every point failure in system will lead to the system collapse. Now in china, every supermarket (Carrefour...) all adopted Central controller like CPC. The same to your customers or not?:confused:

mr cool
11-07-2006, 10:44 PM
i would have to say that in my 11 years in this field that i have not come across a better controller than danfoss microcool, its a bit of a bugger to set up but after that it will work for years without a problem 5* rating

Andy
11-07-2006, 11:05 PM
i would have to say that in my 11 years in this field that i have not come across a better controller than danfoss microcool, its a bit of a bugger to set up but after that it will work for years without a problem 5* rating

A Woodley Microcool was a Danfoss Controller with a Woodly Eprom and program, Danfoss hardware.

To put it correctly Danfoss did not make a microcool:) Woodley did. Reliable when set up, but as I remember a real bugger to set up a complete supermarket with a Woodley frount end as it's keeps crashing:D

Still Danfoss is the most realiable that I have worked with:)

Kind Regards Andy:)

Toolman
11-07-2006, 11:29 PM
:eek:

OH, the above is a good advise. "Every coin has two side",the central control will has a good central management and low price.

For refrigeration system, every point failure in system will lead to the system collapse. Now in china, every supermarket (Carrefour...) all adopted Central controller like CPC. The same to your customers or not?:confused:
:D Why THANKYOU :D
We have used Danfoss AKM system ( Rack control , and seperate EKC controls for each system ) in Aussie a few times but allow a more time that you wanted in the quote to set it up , but once operating it does run without a hitch , if one control dies its no big deal. A lot of hardware though thats the annoying part and a stand alone computer just for the control . If you dont have a computer you have to use the crazy hand controller plugged into the Rack controller to look at system. I am going to use a Dixell XWEB300 ( see link below ) on next multiple setup system . No software to load into computer ( no stand alone computer with latest software ) its all in the small interface box that connects to all the controls. Web browser is used to look at system , cant wait .http://www.dixell.com/page.php?sid=66e5ea6293e22daae37afac16a6b2eeb&pageid=PPROD001

oldwolf
12-07-2006, 01:43 PM
Hello ShylockW,

Here in Canada, we use mostly Micro Thermo Technologies products. Its called the MT Alliance Platform. Technology is Lonworks based. Highly scalable (we install Loblaws stores with up to 200, 000 sq feet). No central controller. All distributed electronic control module talking to one another. No single point of failure. There is not a central controller, but a central access point called the MT Alliance (it runs on a PC).

It gives you zoomable floor plans, rack views, who changed what and when for up to 3 years. About 2000 points (temp, humidity, pressure, switch, flow, etc...) are monitored on a big store. Each point keeps historical data every minute for up to 3 years.

Historical data can be made available to the chain via a web browser. Also an alarm center that can monitor hundreds of stores in one location in real-time is available.

Micro Thermo products control the racks: suction group, compressors, condenser, circuits and the cases: eepr valves. It also offers products to control HVAC (Air Handler Unit, Rooftop Unit, Variable Air Volume boxes, occupancy scheduler, motion sensors) and lighting (scheduler, photocells, lighting panels, individual zones). Also available is an energy management features that can work across refrigeration-hvac and lighting. They cover all aspects of supermarket control, not just refrigeration.

My contact in MTT is Yves Filiatrault. But he is the Canadian sales rep. Don't know if MTT is interested in China. Browse microthermo.com for more info.

And good luck with your projects.

shylockw
12-07-2006, 02:08 PM
:D Why THANKYOU :D


:cool: I am so sorry

Firstly, thanks for this post;
Sencondly, additional thanks for last post;:D :p

AKM is the first version 1.0 for Danfoss, now AK2 is the Version 2.0. AK2 uses many I/O modules for temperature,pressure and solinoid valve input/output. http://www.danfoss.com/North_America/NewsAndEvents/News/Products/AK2+SC-255.htm
I dont know the total price for using Xweb300 control system solution?But your seperate controller and central communication like pileup. AK2 is indeed a good central controller. Now I am investigated on refrigeration controller market and plan to design a cheap control solution.
I want to know which function is the best important for refrigeration system? Could you please give me some suggestions.:confused:

My future control system is below:
Hardware: Siemens's S200 PLC.
Software: programming by myself.

I think this is a good choice.

Andy
12-07-2006, 07:13 PM
:cool: I am so sorry

Firstly, thanks for this post;
Sencondly, additional thanks for last post;:D :p

AKM is the first version 1.0 for Danfoss, now AK2 is the Version 2.0. AK2 uses many I/O modules for temperature,pressure and solinoid valve input/output. http://www.danfoss.com/North_America/NewsAndEvents/News/Products/AK2+SC-255.htm
I dont know the total price for using Xweb300 control system solution?But your seperate controller and central communication like pileup. AK2 is indeed a good central controller. Now I am investigated on refrigeration controller market and plan to design a cheap control solution.
I want to know which function is the best important for refrigeration system? Could you please give me some suggestions.:confused:

My future control system is below:
Hardware: Siemens's S200 PLC.
Software: programming by myself.

I think this is a good choice.

shylockw:)

Danfoss also make the EKC range, which has less functions, cheaper, but very relyable.

Why PLC's Why S200:( :(

Cost with PLC's will be higher, once you by the hardware, develope the controller software and Tag all the SCADA, what you are talking about is a life times worth of work, it took Danfoss years to develope ADAPTKOOL, and more to develope AK2 and EKC;)

It will be more cost effective to buy in than build, we build, but only where we have too, otherwise we use Danfoss, why re-invent the wheel:confused:

Kind Regards Andy:)

spr2003
12-07-2006, 07:39 PM
I use Danfoss most of the times.
AKC 25 for racks, EKC 204 for cabinets and counters, and when i'm not enough with money, Carel IRMPX and PCO for the racks.
On big surfaces plants with secondary fluid Danfoss AKC 24 and EKC 204 on the cabinets.
In all the cases the medium range and the low range temperatures are splitted in proper plants.

Toolman
13-07-2006, 11:47 AM
:

My future control system is below:
Hardware: Siemens's S200 PLC.
Software: programming by myself.

I think this is a good choice.

I agree with Andy although Danfoss ADAPTCOOL is a little cumbersome in its langauge for the HUNDREDS of functions it has within its program , we have used them and as I said earlier the work once setup , but allow programming time for these settings .

I dont understand why you want to create another refrigeration control system ?
There are so many as you can see by the posts on your thread, They all work to varying degrees and basically ALL work .

Its a bit like designing a new thermostat or compressor , theres hundreds of brands out there all R&D'd and with warranty to back them up . WHY DO IT ? What do you want to achieve from this exercise? ARE YOU BORED ?? :confused:

shylockw
14-07-2006, 08:21 AM
Hello Andy & Toolman:
Firstly,Many thanks for your advices.

Creating a new controller comes from the fact: In our supermarket refrigeration field, the electric consumption is so big as 3400 KWh for one day. This data is measured for Auchan Supermarket Shanghai,china. Then one year running cost = 365*3400*(0.8 yuan/kwh)=992,800 yuan(RMB). So energy saving is very very urgent issue. But nowday the energy saving contribution from the controller is only limited to float suction and condensing pressure.
In my knowledge structure from univercity studying, Many new technolgy could be applied to save energy. One for a good controller: many new control arithmetic can be adopted, for puzzel-control, nerve-net control. these solutions can manage a good breakdown and cooling procedure, and get a steady aim value. but it is not used! :eek: The second for a good system supervision and management: The controller should view some important point and calculate online effective or load, then provide a next controling act. :eek: All above is aimed to set up a "so smart controller".
But only way to build up this controller is to programm by yourself. As andy said, I dont want to re-build wheel. So I select a popular hardware(PLC) and plan to programm by myself.
I major in Thermal Engineer, so energy waste like a sword into my heart. I'm sure that you (Andy, toolman and every designer) also have the same feeling indeed. :mad:
So i can try to do it and start to investigation:confused: . Of course in my parttime.;)

Thanks again for Toolman, Andy, Nonickname, Mr cool, old wolf(your controller is a Building Controller, belongs to Distributing Control System) and spr2003.
:) :) :)

Andy
14-07-2006, 09:37 AM
Hello Andy & Toolman:
Firstly,Many thanks for your advices.

Creating a new controller comes from the fact: In our supermarket refrigeration field, the electric consumption is so big as 3400 KWh for one day. This data is measured for Auchan Supermarket Shanghai,china. Then one year running cost = 365*3400*(0.8 yuan/kwh)=992,800 yuan(RMB). So energy saving is very very urgent issue. But nowday the energy saving contribution from the controller is only limited to float suction and condensing pressure.
In my knowledge structure from univercity studying, Many new technolgy could be applied to save energy. One for a good controller: many new control arithmetic can be adopted, for puzzel-control, nerve-net control. these solutions can manage a good breakdown and cooling procedure, and get a steady aim value. but it is not used! :eek: The second for a good system supervision and management: The controller should view some important point and calculate online effective or load, then provide a next controling act. :eek: All above is aimed to set up a "so smart controller".
But only way to build up this controller is to programm by yourself. As andy said, I dont want to re-build wheel. So I select a popular hardware(PLC) and plan to programm by myself.
I major in Thermal Engineer, so energy waste like a sword into my heart. I'm sure that you (Andy, toolman and every designer) also have the same feeling indeed. :mad:
So i can try to do it and start to investigation:confused: . Of course in my parttime.;)

Thanks again for Toolman, Andy, Nonickname, Mr cool, old wolf(your controller is a Building Controller, belongs to Distributing Control System) and spr2003.
:) :) :)

You could also do like I havw done on Industrial systems; used Danfoss AK2 and added S200 on to carry out the logic functions that the controllers can't.

Kind Regards Andy:)

Peter_1
14-07-2006, 10:30 PM
MT Alliance can be compared with RMS/Radford, now Linde.

spr2003
19-07-2006, 09:40 PM
Not bad Arneg AWS also.
It works with any kind of controller.

mr cool
04-08-2006, 12:15 AM
well superheat control is essential what you could do is try some sort of fuzzy logic with eev control so that when your case or coldroom is close to reaching its set point it slows the cooling down by incresing superheat value if all cases were running with minimal load but still cooling your pack would have a fairly constant load and stop/ starts of comps would be kept to a minimum. have you considered fitting an inverter to one comp on pack, they work v well. regards mr cool.

floyd57
22-11-2006, 05:26 AM
Microthermo (MT Alliance) Has an energy saving subsystem set up in the program. It requires internet access and takes real time pricing from the local electricity supplier to the store. According to pricing @ the time it then load sheds. Lights, rooftops as well as refrigeration equipment.
This is in reply to your concern for energy savings Shylokw

Kevin Yeo
23-11-2006, 03:44 PM
Hi all,

Just noticed this post and would like to share out my thoughts.

Danfoss system is very reliable and user friendly. Normally I use EKC 531D1 with AKS32 Hi and lo side tranducers (10 outputs for compressors and condenser fan motor step control), EKC 202C for showcase & coldroom and all controllers are linked to AKC245 x 2 no (PC and modem gateway).

Monitoring point of view is fantastic, however, its very costly to dial in to monitor store real time running data. IP based would be fantastic but there is security issues with stores.

Trend here is supermarket operators want to have HVAC, lighting and refrigerations monitored and scheduled to reduce unnecessary peak demand charges during day time. When the number of stores increase, there's requirement of central monitoring of all stores.

rgds,
Kevin

LRAC
23-11-2006, 07:38 PM
Sorry for butting in guys but what happened to ELM.

Regards
Lrac

Andy
24-11-2006, 10:47 PM
Sorry for butting in guys but what happened to ELM.

Regards
Lrac

Hi LRAC:)

Elm was bought by Honeywell, staff were moved or where to be moved to Honeywell site the other side of the City.
They mostly left and started on their own as RDM.

Kind Regards Andy:)

Kevin Yeo
25-11-2006, 02:52 AM
However, RDM controllers size is too large I think for supermarket operation. Can't even fit in top canopy compartment and there's a risk of being knocked by trolley cart if locating it at the kick plate.
But notably its readily IP based and its mimic layout works wonderfully.. and its wireless....

Dan
25-11-2006, 02:56 AM
I think a separation is developing in our industry:


The refrigeration technician
The controller installation and manufacturer


Where the person carrying the tools is able to diagnose and repair problems, versus, where the elite are able to customize processes that make the former job more difficult. I have lost food simply because we could not access a password properly and then diagnose improperly assigned boards and points.

I sense this as a serious divide, such as America had with the cattlemen and the sheepherders. Fridge guys, and Control guys. And I don't like what I see.

It is a wrong assumption to think the people climbing the ladders and carrying the tools are not capable of having laptops and connecting them as a part of the job.

It is an equally incorrect assumption to think the people viewing systems on dial-ups or IP addies are incapable of climbing the ladder and correcting the fault. But the divide is there. My man on the catwalk or in the machine room is stuck going through layers of "elite" players, looking for basic stuff he could do all by himself if there was not some snot-nose with a secret password or a cloning program using boolean logic to make one condenser act like the one next to it. AAARRRGGHHH!

My deepest concern is that we are developing an elite, which presupposes serfs.

I support you fellows who establish a bond and permanence with a customer because you have developed your own programs, etc.

My work is more in the mass flow of supermarket and other retail operations who command their own controls from Central monitoring sort of circumstances. Where I need a team of people to cover the stores.

Those who may or may not be available when the board and points go south. Control demons who put my technicians on hold forever... or the chain customer who will not let you peek into the system via telephone or internet.

This year, which is pretty much wrapped up, I would say that with our primary accounts who use electronic controllers... that 60 % of the calls were more related to controller issues than they were to basic refrigeration issues. And each and every one of them was an issue that I had to argue and defend, "was this a refrigeration issue? Was this a controller issue?"... or at least it felt that way.

As a service manager with a pretty good gang of refrigeration repairmen, I feel that some "elite" people are out there just setting me up to fail... because they have screened me and my technicians out of the computers.

I just reread what I wrote. I think I will send it. There is a difference between being a contractor who is more or less restricted to what the customer demands as compared to a contractor who guides the customer into the best configuration.

But the question was related to who has the best controller? Danfoss is great. CPC is great. As controller manufacturers.

But then there are the other controllers. The "Elite."

I don't like them.

Kevin Yeo
25-11-2006, 07:46 AM
I agree with Dan in a way. However, such electronic monitoring and control system does come in handy especially when it takes long distance to get to the jobsite and contractor like us who learns actual hands-on troubleshooting & monitoring through software can make full use of the infrastructure to advise our clients wats can be done while we are on our way to the site..At this point of view and contractor point of view, i its not too bad a thing either isn't it..

taz24
25-11-2006, 11:31 AM
Nobody has mentioned CDK or Honeywell Elm.
They are both very reliable and exelent for good control of the whole system from the packs to the cases and coldrooms.

RDM are now getting bigger and their control opperation is identical to Elm.

Aplies to UK only I have no experience of other countries.

Cheers taz.

Dan
25-11-2006, 02:41 PM
I agree with Dan in a way. However, such electronic monitoring and control system does come in handy especially when it takes long distance to get to the jobsite and contractor like us who learns actual hands-on troubleshooting & monitoring through software can make full use of the infrastructure to advise our clients wats can be done while we are on our way to the site..At this point of view and contractor point of view, i its not too bad a thing either isn't it..
Reply With Quote

Kevin, I completely agree that electronic controllers are a wonderful tool and piece of equipment. I am just frustrated that I am not allowed to view the operation of the equipment by some of my customers. For example, Walmart has central monitoring. I have to call them and stay on hold for hours to watch something through Novar. Hannaford Brothers. Even their own technicians (I am a backup group) cannot access the IP address of the Danfoss controllers to see what is happening. Again, we must call central monitoring who may or may not have time to assist us in verifying board-point problems.

But oddly, many of the people contracted to install the controllers can access any of the stores at any time. Regrettably, their refrigeration expertise is limited at best, and they seem to enjoy their elitism.

taz24
25-11-2006, 02:47 PM
But oddly, many of the people contracted to install the controllers can access any of the stores at any time. Regrettably, their refrigeration expertise is limited at best, and they seem to enjoy their elitism.


Is just a mater of you needing the IP adress.
Because that is easy to obtain. You will need also to dial the store direct and comunicate with the controlers modem so store dialin numbers is a must.

Cheers taz.

Ps you need to talk to a friendly install guy and come to an agreement with him.
The knowledge is invaluable and you don't have to use it. you can just monitor.

Dan
25-11-2006, 03:35 PM
Taz, we are forbidden because of so-called security reasons to access these controllers. To gain access would be unethical without proper permissions.

I have much access to other stores. These are my most profitable and troublefree stores. My problem is with the stores who do not grant permissions. This is similar to companies who take away administrative privileges from the worker's computers. An "elite" corps of people are wedging in between those of us who have final responsibility for repair, and the accessibility to the diagnostic capabilities provided by controllers.

Kevin Yeo
26-11-2006, 03:17 AM
Well the supermarket here is working toward country-wide central monitoring system. Guess when that happens, the so-called 'elite' group will definitely prohibit others from accessing to the network unless permission is granted. I will feel the pinch later... :(