Prices and availability

[cadwaladr]

Crossing old ground but refrigerant prices are a main issue here in the eurozone yes we or most of us have the certs and most of our clients are aware of the prices how much we mark up is our own business but availability is not reliant on using the regular wholesalers l am aware of dodgy imports but l feel wholesalers need to recognise that by charging high prices they are shooting themselves in the foot ok l will use my trusted wholesaler but on refrigerant l will source from others the mark up wholesalers charge is outrageous sometimes ok most spares prices are round about the same but l truly feel refrigerant price mark up by many wholesalers has got out of hand the ones mainly independents that do not comply to regs l don't use and trust me l report them alas nothing has yet been done l can source refrigerant 40 to 50% cheaper than my trusted suppliers so it's obvious profiteering is happening do any others share my sentiments? Sorry for the length of the post!!!

[Rob White]

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I used to work for a wholesaler and although I was never involved in pricing I do have an understanding of how it works and it is a policy that is designed to deliver maximum profits but continue growth and sustainability. It's not quite as simple as one wholesaler phoning another and pretending to be a customer requiring about prices so they can set a price for this month but it's not a that complicated that that does not happen.
Obviously the 3 or 4 main manufactures of refrigerants set the price for the next period of time and the wholesales then order it in at that price. The price in the wholesaler then fluctuates dependent on the customers account rating (how much they buy and how quick they pay) and that can result in variances of as much as 60% discount on advertised prices.
A customer who does a couple of purchases a month might get a 10% discount to keep them sweet but a customer who does £10k a month with the wholesaler might get 50% - 60% discount.

I now work for a hire company and I now have accounts set up with 3 or 4 main wholesalers with minimal discount and R449a two weeks ago was £40 a kg but R404a was £35 a kilo???? Go figure where the reasoning behind that is. I have just changed all my systems to R449a and now 404a is cheaper?

No answers for you I'm afraid but I guarantee it is going to get worse and in the next few years the refrigerants you are used to will all change. The 400 series refrigerants we were used to have a limited life and they will be going.

I guarantee you will be working with different refrigerants in 5 years.

Rob

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[cadwaladr]

Strange why the new refrigerant is more expensive that does not make any incentive to convert but l do remember the 404a entering the industry and it was expensive then the price dropped now it's peaked?

[Rob White]

Strange why the new refrigerant is more expensive that does not make any incentive to convert but l do remember the 404a entering the industry and it was expensive then the price dropped now it's peaked?

If I'm honest, I don't know either. The cynic in me my be tempted to say that somebody is making money from it all but I imagine it is just down to basic supply and demand.

I know we have to limit the high GWP refrigerants and there is a battle on whether we reduce 404 or 410 because both fridge and AC require them and the loudest voice gets heard, so one month more 410 and then the next its 404 but they are being reduced in manufacture and as a result the price reflects that.

Everyone then starts experimenting with the slack handful of other refrigerants that manufacturers are producing and if you listen to the manufactures their individual product is the best and the rest are crap.........

Simplistic, maybe but I'm old enough to have been through this in the eighties and nineties when CFC's and HCFC's were banned. I remember see a refrigerant production list in the late nineties that had over 60 refrigerants listed as alternatives to the three main CFC's and HCFC's we were forced to replace.

I see it happening again with manufacturers inventing new refrigerants or blending older ones in new ways and claiming they are the best thing since sliced bread.

In ten years time we will be using a small range of refrigerants for the three main temperature ranges, AC, fridge and freezer temps and all the other refrigerants will be forgotten about just like the 50 or so ones from the nineties were..

Times are a changing

Rob

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[hyperion]

Rob, the refrigerant that you describe sounds like we are about to re-invent R22 and it will be coded R12234xyza as a good all-round refrigerant.

[Rob White]

Rob, the refrigerant that you describe sounds like we are about to re-invent R22 and it will be coded R12234xyza as a good all-round refrigerant.

:-)

Don't give them ideas :)

Rob

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[Rob White]

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Saw one new, new refrigerant that has Chlorine in it but because it is in such a small proportion it's ok.

Some people still think R22 should be kept and just ensure the systems are gas tight.

Or is that too simple :)

Rob

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[Goober]

Aaaahhh, the refrigerant debate rages on. Back in the day with joy in my heart I'd select either R12 or R502 refillable dumpy cylinder from the van and go clean some condensers. It was a simple time.

Its not a bad suggestion to use R22 for everything and insist on regular leak checking, but alas it will never happen.

As to GWP numbers....well that as far as I'm concerned is a complete load of boll*cks. Remember reading about how they arrived at the formula for this, one part of writing talked about the TEWI value of formula, and if I remember correctly was set by a number of academics/leaders of industry and environmentalists etc. Initially this value was low and subsequently so was the GWP of various well used refrigerants.

After awhile it was "reviewed" and decided that TEWI value be changed and from what I gather, changed based totally on opinion of selected members of above. Not based totally on science, but with opinion added. And as we all know, when large sums of money to be made, decisions for better or worse are made on how much can be made.

No a cynic, honest.

[Grizzly]

You all get my vote Guys.
I am embarrassed almost daily with Having to tell customers what the latest charges are.
Grizzly

[cadwaladr]

I have sourced my supply from a legitimate supplier in the uk genuine refrigerant fully compliant which is a lot cheaper than all the major wholesalers so it's the wild west as far as l can work it out!!

[Rob White]

I have sourced my supply from a legitimate supplier in the uk genuine refrigerant fully compliant which is a lot cheaper than all the major wholesalers so it's the wild west as far as l can work it out!!

Is it cheaper than £40 a kilo?

If it is, PM the details to me if you would please?

Rob

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