PDA

View Full Version : Help and advise from the H&S wise and Opinion of other Techs!







Grizzly
19-04-2017, 10:28 PM
Hi Guys.
I have been working in an Ammonia Plant Room for the last couple of days which has had a block wall built across the Plant Room Double doors and the Fire Escape Door.
Am I right to be concerned about this?
See Attached!
1474614747

They don't look that big, but when you approach them you have to remember to take a big step over them.
Coming out of the plant room potentially in a Escape Hood or Respirator, You could really hurt yourself!
Also A large sign has appeared on the fire door which says within a Yellow Triangle 2NE Explosive Atmosphere.
Can someone enlighten?

FaultCode
19-04-2017, 11:44 PM
Quote from HSE Doc, link follows..

'Quote' Hazardous areas are classified into zones based on the frequency of the occurrence and the duration of an explosive gas atmosphere. In the case of a secondary release, the relevant zone is zone 2, i.e. a place where an explosive atmosphere is not likely to occur in normal operation but, if it does occur, will persist for a short period only. In areas where the ventilation is ‘high’ relative to the leak size, BS EN 60079:10 recommends that the area classification is zone 2 but of negligible extent (NE), i.e. that no action is thus required to control sources of ignition within it. 'End'

Edit link--

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr630.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwigvMK1y7HTAhWELcAKHYBKBa0QFggmMAA&usg=AFQjCNHnU08DXW3Dja3wP5ZACMWJKpaqcg&sig2=4C3EHkk8IBeOtVivQ8KlxA

PaulZ
20-04-2017, 01:30 AM
Hi Grizzly
The block wall could create a trip hazard in the event of a hasty exit. I presume it has been put there to stop any liquids escaping from the plantroom.
With regards to the new sign Explosive Atmosphere.
We have a new standard now and it is based on ISO 817 which I think you use in the UK and Europe.
Ammonia has been reclassified from a B2 to a B2L refrigerant and class 2L is now considered to be of lower flammability but not explosive, I think it would be the same there.
Regards
Paul

cadwaladr
20-04-2017, 01:39 AM
It's dangerous full stop,compensation lawyers would have a field day do you want some help grizzly I could do with compo in my position at the moment 50/50 ha ha!

RANGER1
20-04-2017, 09:37 PM
Hi Grizzly
The block wall could create a trip hazard in the event of a hasty exit. I presume it has been put there to stop any liquids escaping from the plantroom.
With regards to the new sign Explosive Atmosphere.
We have a new standard now and it is based on ISO 817 which I think you use in the UK and Europe.
Ammonia has been reclassified from a B2 to a B2L refrigerant and class 2L is now considered to be of lower flammability but not explosive, I think it would be the same there.
Regards
Paul

So Paul, how are you going with new code?
Looks like a step backwards in a lot of aspects.

If this is bunding, I wonder is there any drains in plant room floor, if so they would have to be blocked during normal operation so ammonia/oil doesn't run down them.
Safety is good, but seems isolated boxes are ticked off by different people, looks like eliminate one thing but make several other issues.

Grizzly
20-04-2017, 10:25 PM
You are all spot on guys!
Regs read in isolation. By someone who has not considered the whole picture.
I have briefly spoken with my manager and we are going to look at this with Our own H&S guys!
When shown the walls by one of the senior site Engineers.
He agreed with my concerns for the engineers safety.
I.E safe access and exit of the plant room. Which is as stated above compromised!
Second comment is why bund a plant room which has good drainage outside to the site effluent plant.
So any leakage would be contained.
In fact any ammonia would help flush the drains.

More important as the Ranger has said.
There is a drain in the plant room drains to the same outside Effluent plant as does outside.
So what is the wall doing?
Apart from satisfying some poorly Implemented Environmental regs.
Everyone is an book expert but fails to consider Engineer.

Hopefully common sense will prevail on this one?
Thanks for the additional info Fault code.
I am going to have to read that one several times I think.
Because the wording seems to contradict the message the warning sign conveys!
If you get my meaning?
Grizzly

The Viking
20-04-2017, 10:37 PM
Careful there Mr. Bear,
Common sense is not as common as one would like to believe.

:cool:

Grizzly
20-04-2017, 11:01 PM
Rep points all round Guys!
If only I could give them.
I never got an answer as to how many you have to award, before you can give to the same person a second time?
Grizzly

PaulZ
20-04-2017, 11:58 PM
Hi Ranger
Went to the AIRAH seminar on the new regulations, did you.
Still getting my head around the changes and as usual some grey areas.
I have to agree with you that it is probably a backwards step in a lot of points but this has aligned us with the international standards.
I am not sure I agree with everything but these new standards are now what we have to work to.
Regards
Paul

Rob White
21-04-2017, 10:45 PM
You are all spot on guys!

Second comment is why bund a plant room which has good drainage outside to the site effluent plant.
So any leakage would be contained.
In fact any ammonia would help flush the drains.





Grizzly


Oooo I'd like to see that, from a distance, liquid Ammonia flushing an effluent plant.

:) The smell.....................

Rob.

Grizzly
21-04-2017, 11:34 PM
Oooo I'd like to see that, from a distance, liquid Ammonia flushing an effluent plant.

:) The smell.....................


Rob.

Either way Someone would be in the S**t
Cheers Rob!
Grizzly

Rob White
21-04-2017, 11:37 PM
.

:D

Rob

.

The Viking
22-04-2017, 12:48 AM
Oooo I'd like to see that, from a distance, liquid Ammonia flushing an effluent plant.

Rob.

Upwind...

:cool:

RANGER1
22-04-2017, 12:55 AM
Hi Ranger
Went to the AIRAH seminar on the new regulations, did you.
Still getting my head around the changes and as usual some grey areas.
I have to agree with you that it is probably a backwards step in a lot of points but this has aligned us with the international standards.
I am not sure I agree with everything but these new standards are now what we have to work to.
Regards
Paul

Paul I only hear a few things around our office.
Our Melbourne engineers were probably there seeing as one is on the comity!
Industry to small in Australia to change anything, as if following flammable refrigerants Europeans probably the leaders.
Auto isolation of liquid pump is a good one.
HP switch has to suit refs so Danfoss out JCI in.

RANGER1
22-04-2017, 02:04 AM
You are all spot on guys!
Regs read in isolation. By someone who has not considered the whole picture.
I have briefly spoken with my manager and we are going to look at this with Our own H&S guys!
When shown the walls by one of the senior site Engineers.
He agreed with my concerns for the engineers safety.
I.E safe access and exit of the plant room. Which is as stated above compromised!
Second comment is why bund a plant room which has good drainage outside to the site effluent plant.
So any leakage would be contained.
In fact any ammonia would help flush the drains.

More important as the Ranger has said.
There is a drain in the plant room drains to the same outside Effluent plant as does outside.
So what is the wall doing?
Apart from satisfying some poorly Implemented Environmental regs.
Everyone is an book expert but fails to consider Engineer.

Hopefully common sense will prevail on this one?
Thanks for the additional info Fault code.
I am going to have to read that one several times I think.
Because the wording seems to contradict the message the warning sign conveys!
If you get my meaning?
Grizzly

Without knowing plant layout, the ones I have seen are bunded around place where the liquid ammonia (or whatever is to be contained) is localised like pump & vessel area.
Have seen without drains & maybe a sump pump.
Ammonia detection would inhibit pump from running.

Josip
22-04-2017, 09:27 AM
Hi, all ... :)

everything is a little bit funny, but can be very dangerous ...

some rules are put in action by the people never been outside in the plant ...

... this wall was built in one meat factory in Croatia to protect environment from liquid ammonia leak ... fortunately that never happened (even if it happen concrete wall as built cannot protect) in case of sudden ammonia release there will be a white cloud and we cannot see nothing ... starting to run out this wall is only a big danger .... it is an obstacle and will be forgotten in that moment ...

I fall off that wall when we carry one heavy part out of engine room ... I just forgot the wall and moving backward I fall over the wall on the floor with load in my hands ... was not funny at all, but for sure tragicomic and dangerous ... I was not injured, but stressed a lot ...:mad:

14748 147491475014751
14752

So, people making new rules must think over about reality within engine rooms and real danger when install any protection whatever type is ...

Unfortunately a lot of "rule makers" do not have ability to see the whole picture ...

Best regards, Josip :)

Grizzly
22-04-2017, 10:45 AM
I totally agree Josip.
As Viking said common sense should prevail but it is not.
I have been told I should not run in a plant room, but walk calmly and safely!!!.
Because I used the term leave the plant room in a Hurry!
Grizzly

install monkey
22-04-2017, 03:33 PM
i think its based on time and spreading the love- i have to dig up kompulsa posts to give him some!:D


Rep points all round Guys!
If only I could give them.
I never got an answer as to how many you have to award, before you can give to the same person a second time?
Grizzly