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Rob White
15-10-2016, 04:26 PM
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So it's official.

The developed countries will now ban HFC's by 2020.

R404a is so regulated as to be removed from systems by
then but this is an actual ban. The new HFO's are about 10 times dearer
at the moment so that leaves the blends, HC's, C02 and Ammonia.

Times are a changing, what with the EU changing the way the F-gas
qualification is to be regulated and delivered in 2017 and now this
new ban, don't be suprised if within the next 18 months they don't
bring out the 2080 refrigerant handling qualification.

I've been saying since 2014 that they will change it (and I've been wrong up to now)
but I bet by next year they will anounce changes that come into effect
either in 2017 or 2018.

You read it here first :)

Rob

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al
15-10-2016, 07:43 PM
So have they ramped up the ban on 404 now? can we use recycled for a few years after the 2020 date?

Rob White
15-10-2016, 08:45 PM
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Only heard the news reports and it has made Radio 4 news twice now
in 2 days, so it must be substantial if they report it twice, environments
and refrigeration tend not to be mentioned :o

But I don't know the specifics, I doo know that the EU is stricter than other
developed Countries so maybe the rest of the world has agreed to be more
like the EU as aposed the EU doining different???

But, they are now using words like banning instead of regulating and if we
thought CFC's were important, I think we will be in for a shock with HFC's.

Rob

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hookster
15-10-2016, 09:02 PM
The Kigali amendment is for the complete ban on HFC by 2050.
The amendment to the legally-binding Montreal Protocol will ensure that the rich and industrialised countries bring down their HFC production and consumption by at least 85 per cent compared to their annual average values in the period 2011-2013. A group of developing countries including China, Brazil and South Africa are mandated to reduce their HFC use by 85 per cent of their average value in 2020-22 by the year 2045. India and some other developing countries — Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, and some oil economies like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait — will cut down their HFCs by 85 per cent of their values in 2024-26 by the year 2047.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/kigali-delivers-second-big-climate-deal-montreal-protocol-amended-to-eliminate-hfcs-3083930/

Rob White
15-10-2016, 09:58 PM
Snipperty snip


http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/kigali-delivers-second-big-climate-deal-montreal-protocol-amended-to-eliminate-hfcs-3083930/

Interesting reading.

:)

Rob

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cadwaladr
16-10-2016, 01:05 AM
Ok I understand the agreement slightly,developed countries will have to comply a lot sooner than the underdeveloped countries how they define under developed countries is a tricky one as some have nuclear capability? But moving along yes I agree damaging the earths long time future needs to be adressed by our industry and making people who have the correct certification to purchase and use refrigerants is equally important ,to be fair our industry had become complacent unregulated ,but refrigerants that do less harm to the environment have been around for a very long time it's only been a case of new engineering to maximise the potential so I say forget the it cannot be done unfair mentality let's grasp the nettle and exceed in our development before we damage the big place we all share mother earth,other polluting industries are reengineering if we all pull together I feel future generations will respect our commitment if we don't then there will be no future generations it's as simple as that!

Rob White
16-10-2016, 10:41 AM
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I see a lot of refrigeration / Air Conditioning engineers and
the authorities are starting to audit refrigeration companies.

I'm all in favour of the controls, I work in training (so sort of have
a vested intrest) and I speak to engineers every day of the week
and a good percentage of those have talked about the audits
that have started to happen.

Some will know I used to work for a wholesaler and I saw the regulation
from that side and now I see the regulation from the ref companies side.

We have always been expected to work to high standards, the real change
is for the owners and users of the equipment. They are now being made to
take responsibility for their systems.

As for policing it, I remember reading somewhere that the EPA (DEFRA) would
not start properly enforcing it until 2014 -15 and then they would only enforcing
it with the large suppermarkets. The real enforcement won't start until 2020 and
by then everyone will have had 10 years to get used to the F-gas regulations.

I think for the most part the refrigeration industry is fairly switched on to the change,
it is the owners and operators who will bear the brunt of the new changes.
Trouble is, it is us who have to tell them, so they see us as the problem, instead
of the law being the reason why these changes are being made.

Like it or not the owners and operators have to comply because it is the law and
that is going to cost. A lot of systems out there were obsolete 10 years ago,
with the new refrigerants there is going to be a hugh amount of change.

The owners / operators might blame us because we are the messenger passing on
the EU / UK legislation but there is going to be a hugh amount of work out there
and we the ones who will be doing it.

So as I said "times are a changing" and we best hold on because it is going to be a
hell of a ride for the next 5 to 10 years.

I remember when CFC's were banned and the amount of work that was required to
retrofit to the New all singing, all dancing HFC's :rolleyes:

Those "new all singing and dancing HFC's will soon be banned and I'm not sure we trully
have a viable alternative.

Lets hope the new New generation refrigerants are better than the last lot of "New" one :)

Rob

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Grizzly
16-10-2016, 11:19 AM
lots of "Specialists telling you what you can't do! Not many telling you what You can!

Nothing new there then!
Recently had to do a Respirator "Face Fit test" despite having been trained in its used since the early Seventies!
Part of me got quite angry about this and I explained to the excellent trainer we had.
That I had been using the same method of proving mask tightness (Sealed). First taught in the forces and subsequently by various BA equipment trainers.
He agreed, what I realised then was.
None of the above was about whether I could use the equipment supplied.
And all about the employer proving their employees have had Training.
Its all a need to satisfy the paper trail I am afraid.
So instead of my criticising my need to "Re - train" I now know that my and other companies have no choice.

None of the engineers present struggled with it and it was a nice easy morning.

Whilst on the theme of Training has anyone seen the latest edition of EN378. The 2016 edition is due out.
That will be an interesting read.
A question Who now owns Climate Centre? Is it still Wolsey group?
Grizzly

Quality
17-10-2016, 03:12 PM
I had notification from BSI that BS EN 378 will be released 17/11/2016

joe-ice
17-10-2016, 04:26 PM
Is it a total ban on hfcs in 2020 or a phase out starting in 2020 . This throws a lot of things up in the air like how can you sell a 40? system or unit to a customer if its going to be obsolete in 4 years also for a lot of these single unit type applications at the moment there is no new alternative. This is going to be a disaster for the suppliers and end users alike.

Rob White
17-10-2016, 06:20 PM
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Follow the link in Hookster's post, it answers most question.

In truth for us in the EU/UK it won't make much of a difference,
we are controlling it to the point where it is all but banned.

In the EU/UK it will be against the regs to use a refrigerant above certain GWP limits
after 2020 and 404a falls into that camp, so most large 404a systems are
bing pulled out or converted to other refigerants.

I think the word "banning" is more telling. In some parts of the world, regulation is
not as strict as the EU/UK so banning is a different kettle of fish compared to regulating.

Rob

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joe-ice
17-10-2016, 07:54 PM
Yes i know the timetable for the phaseout of 404 but what about the lower gwp gases like 407f that systems are being converted to at the moment , are they now also gone in 2020 ?

Rob White
17-10-2016, 11:14 PM
Yes i know the timetable for the phaseout of 404 but what about the lower gwp gases like 407f that systems are being converted to at the moment , are they now also gone in 2020 ?

I'm not sure.

I have not seen the fine print yet :)

Rob

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hookster
18-10-2016, 07:01 AM
I can just see a huge price rise in R404a and any other gas with a high GWP. As the quota system will seriously start to affect the importers and wholesalers. phase out in Europe will be accelerated to phase out HFC by 2019/20 as we need to set the example for the world to follow.

There are a lot of new low GWP refrigerants about to be released
http://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/four-new-refrigerants-seek-ashrae-approval/

My initial reaction is that R32 will not be the future and as observed in the trade very few of us are actually investing in this but there will be some flammable gas in the blends as per equipment manufacturers rush to get approval on their recovery equipment etc.

Equipment sales will be with a very small factory charge (we already see signs of this). I think this is a good / bad thing as it will require certified installers to buy the gas and charge the systems protecting our sales but open up equipment sales further to everyone able to purchase the equipment.

My pet peeve is the sale of air conditioning equipment to large contractors who then get it installed at the lowest price possible. You only need to look at what they are doing to our industry and quality of installs to understand my frustration and the need for a self regulation in our own industry forget waiting for government implementation! The electrical industry embraced it and we need to get our own association that strives to improve standards.

Time we boycotted using Mitsubishi electric and Daikin in the UK for their sell to anyone policy, greed and environmental concerns do not go hand in hand!

mikeref
18-10-2016, 09:45 AM
There was a timeline recently shown on a few high profile Web sites. This data of CO2 concentrations goes beyond the early stages of the Industrial period. ( Might have been analysed from core samples.)

Our threshold ( thanks Grizzly) has passed beyond 400 PPM Carbon Dioxide. Damn!!

Rob White
19-10-2016, 08:20 AM
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http://www.coolingpost.com/features/the-global-hfc-phase-down-how-it-looks/

The deal struck under the mechanism of the Montreal Protocol is complicated by the inclusion of an allowance for HCFC usage which is still under a phase-out in most countries. See Nations agree global phase down of HFCs for more details.
Included in the graphic is the European phase-down timetable under the F-gas regulations which have been in existence since 2015. As can be seen, Europe will have reduced its HFC usage by 27% before the other non-A5 countries start the process.
The F-gas final target of a 79% reduction appears to put the European timetable at odds with the final target of an 85% phase down under the three Montreal Protocol agreements. However, being that the EU phase down was based on consumption figures from 2009-2012, the final quantities are expected to comparatively very similar.
The most important observation is that both the Montreal Protocol and European figures are all based on CO2 equivalents. In practice this is designed to encourage the take-up of lower GWP refrigerants. Obviously, as the phase downs kick-in, refrigerant manufacturers will have the incentive of producing far more of the low GWP refrigerants than the higher GWP gases. This will inevitably lead to higher costs and potential scarcity of the high GWP refrigerants like R404A.