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RANGER1
22-07-2015, 10:25 PM
These days we are expected
to fill in reems of paperwork with different tasks we carry out.
There are older systems that you would expect bring up problems like confined space etc.
On new jobs unfortunately these so called highly educated idiots make dangerous spaces, not knowing what they are doing (sitting in there office on high horse).
New ammonia extension, pipework in roof, low ceiling, one point of access, pipework of all types running everywhere, fully enclosed, no ventilation of any kind, near vertical ladder access going up 2 stories.
Lets think for a millisecond, let's put pipework on roof!
Should refuse to go in there, or better yet get the engineer in there & let some
ammonia go in his direction.
Are we all experiencing same lack of foresight?
Cant believe not a law against it.
A certain spiral geezer company also renowned for it.
Build a skid then build a box around it.

cadwaladr
23-07-2015, 02:29 AM
So in essence it's dangerous? if it is report it to the regulatory body and of course walk away,nobody puts my life on the line full stop.

Josip
23-07-2015, 03:42 PM
These days we are expected
to fill in reems of paperwork with different tasks we carry out.
There are older systems that you would expect bring up problems like confined space etc.
On new jobs unfortunately these so called highly educated idiots make dangerous spaces, not knowing what they are doing (sitting in there office on high horse).
New ammonia extension, pipework in roof, low ceiling, one point of access, pipework of all types running everywhere, fully enclosed, no ventilation of any kind, near vertical ladder access going up 2 stories.
Lets think for a millisecond, let's put pipework on roof!
Should refuse to go in there, or better yet get the engineer in there & let some
ammonia go in his direction.
Are we all experiencing same lack of foresight?
Cant believe not a law against it.
A certain spiral geezer company also renowned for it.
Build a skid then build a box around it.

Bravo Ranger1!

Nice expression, agree fully with you ... that doesn't mean we were without sin ... all this is coming from computer era .... nowadays no one is going on site to check it personally to feel the space ... what is already there what will be new installation ... how to come in or run out ... so putting many persons in trouble or dangerous risk ...

I saw some similar misconstruction in petrochemical plants where money is not a question, but problems are young engineers doing all on computer screens ... many times some pipes are to low, some supports are extended (directly to my head) without protection around, some stairs on wrong position and many other quite dangerous wrongdoing things.

The worst, in big companies (a big manpower fluctuation), are copy&paste projects ... so, one mistake can last decades ...

Best regards, Josip:)

Rob White
25-07-2015, 09:35 PM
.

I have said for years that designers should be made to work on
their own equipment for a month before it is put into production

BY LAW.............................

:)

Rob

.

PaulZ
27-07-2015, 04:04 AM
Hi Ranger
I know your frustration but unfortunately this will probably always happen in some cases as it is probably cheaper because it may be the shortest route. We did an upgrade on a freezer / chiller plant going from R22 to NH3 and all the pipe work went on the roof not in the ceiling space as before.
I would have thought some of the things you have mentioned would have contravened the new WHS Codes of Practice and some Australian Standards.
Am I right in assuming the spiral freezer company comes for over the ditch.
We try to get our engineers involved in the installation and commissioning so they can see first hand how a bad design impacts on the install and commissioning personnel.
Regards
Paul

RANGER1
27-07-2015, 09:30 PM
Hi Ranger
I know your frustration but unfortunately this will probably always happen in some cases as it is probably cheaper because it may be the shortest route. We did an upgrade on a freezer / chiller plant going from R22 to NH3 and all the pipe work went on the roof not in the ceiling space as before.
I would have thought some of the things you have mentioned would have contravened the new WHS Codes of Practice and some Australian Standards.
Am I right in assuming the spiral freezer company comes for over the ditch.
We try to get our engineers involved in the installation and commissioning so they can see first hand how a bad design impacts on the install and commissioning personnel.
Regards
Paul

Paul, it's not necessarily our engineers but builders or consultants.
Of course the less things they do, the more money they make.
Some jobs you would not want your name on.
Client also to blame as they don't build things everyday, so you can't pin anyone.
Complain & your probably a winger, or damage some relationship with client, builder, consultant.
Just annoying said I I'd something wrong I'm under the microscope with in adequate paper work or preparation.

The roof space is crap & vertical ladder scary (to me).

Magoo
28-07-2015, 05:11 AM
Hi Ranger1.
a good post, we have the same knuckle head system designers here as well.
Looks really easy and simple on a CAD drawing. But to get designers away from their computers and do commissioning set ups is nigh on impossible.
Seriously hate vertical ladder access even with cage, only means we end up tooth less if escaping ammonia and a pile of slush on the floor at the bottom of, afterwards.
Did you realize that hard hats are regulated to only identify a corpse after an event. Beggars belief, what the hell would a hard hat stop, A plastic fantastic nothing, but if not with in two years of manufacture your family have no re course or claim for compensation. FFS in the vent of getting smudged. Basically H&S gone nuts

FreezerGeezer
29-07-2015, 09:35 PM
Don't get me started! :D
(Mostly) outsoor plant mounted on roofs or other high points, with NO access!

Uncaged vertical ladders. Ship's ladders aren't so bad.

Unsafe egress / access at the top of ladders. Personally, I can't step around a ladder like one is supposed to. Can't make myself do it.
And one site an old employer had, I could get up the ladder (about 10-15m iirc) quite happily, but at the top you had to step over the wall and down a couple of feet onto the roof. However, since the cage didn't extend forwards, and there was no step or hand hold on the other roof side, I could not make myself take that step! I tried several times on different visits, but I froze up every time.
That really pee'd me off, because for want of another $few, it could have been safe & I could have cracked on. I even suggested I'd be happy to provide a step / hand hold if someone could fit them. But that wasn't allowed as a DIY job would t be covered by insurance.

No safe means of access - and NO, an extension or other ladder is NOT a safe access when carrying tools, bottles, plant, etc!

No fencing of any sort on roof edges (at least that's one thing they've got sorted in the UK).
No access to AHU's or plant, because some idiot's stuck it in too small a space. Or worse, some moron hasn't designed it to be maintainable in order to save production cost.
TEV's sited where you can't get a spanner on them. Sensors behind the rear panel - so the whole section has to be stripped out to replace them, because there's no access hatch and the rear panel is full height!
Daikin with their bloody 7mm bolts - when everyone else uses 1/4" or 5/16". (To be fair though, that's an excuse to own another tool, really. ;) )
Daikin, Mitsi, and other who mount the PCB'supside down without long enough cables to turn them over.
ALL split manufacturers. How the {%*$ are you supposed to work on ANY of these cramped, titchy bloody things???!!!

You know how we're supposed to enter every scratch & knock in the incident books? Do any of us bother? Frankly hardly a day goes by when I don't get a minor injury due to some design flaw, thoughtless design, or cost cutting. Just seems part of the job - if we actually did an incident report eve time, we'd probably get booted for causing a nuisance!

Oh, access. Shelves, cupboards, desks, furntiure, and anything that can possibly be stuck in your way, WILL BE!!
Attic spaces not boarded out. Inadequate sized access hatches - if there are even any fitted.
Installers who can't read a plan, so the FCU is butted up against a partition wall.
Sites that use the tops of cold rooms for extra storage. That's a good one. One of Tesco's staff had a nasty accident because they couldn't tell the difference between cold room roof and suspended ceiling. True story. At least they stopped using that cold room top for storage after that!
Using plant rooms for storage, because no-one thought to design sufficient for the site's needs.

Man, I could go on and on!

PaulZ
30-07-2015, 08:07 AM
Hi FreezerGeezer
Everyone would have experienced pretty much everything you have said and some more. I must admit I don't like climbing onto a ladder from a roof or from a ladder to a roof, maybe it's old age catching up with me.
Many times I have thought to myself "What dumb arse designed this".
I don't like vertical ladders as well and the ones with a cage hardly have enough room to climb up anyway, and don't go up with a screwdriver in you back pocket.
Regards
Paul

FreezerGeezer
30-07-2015, 10:20 PM
Hi Paul.

I hope my post didn't read like I'm the only one to ever come across these things!

My trick, especially for hooped ladders, is a long enough bit of rope that I can haul my tools up after me. ;) An old 20l paint tin is handy there, and doubles as a useful seat. :D
I used to be on the hunt for a suitable fishing, photography, or ammo vest to use as a tool carrier, figuring carrying them on my front would avoid the 'ladder lock' issue, but never found the right one in the UK, and it's too hot for them in Oz.

Any half sane pollie that enacts an unchange-able law that all architects and builders must provide safe, sensible access, and that existing buildings may only install equipment with the same safe, sensible access requirement gets my vote!;)

And another law that any installer that butts an AHU up against a wall so that it is impossible to access the fan bearing - or any similar idiotic ideas, must submit to being nut kicked by every engineer who attends site in future. ;)

Oh yeah, can we please BAN glass fibre insulation while we're at it?

PaulZ
31-07-2015, 05:01 AM
Hi FG
Agree with all you have said.
Let me know when you are going to get into politics to get these laws passed and I will vote for you mate.
There's not a lot of consideration given in the design for servicing as I think the designer knows he doesn't have to work on it.
I could probably go on forever but I reckon I would be preaching to the converted on this forum.
Paul

Tycho
31-07-2015, 08:57 PM
Well said Ranger1, Well said!

Here's a picture of me, from two days ago:
13838
What am I doing?
I'm aligning the motor to the lower compressor on a twin unit, I am wedged between the bulkhead and the compressor unit, the discharge valve is up my ar*e, the discharge pressure sensor is lodged in my chest and my legs are resting on the safety valve and discharge temperature sensor.

Funny thing, took me 10 minutes to get in there and in position so I could reach the bolts on the motor, my co-worker tells me "the laser just ran out of battery" *groan* I tell him there should be new ones in the case "nope"

So while I'm in there, I send him on a 20 minute drive to the store to get new batteries... I crawled up into a "comfortable" crouching position to wait for him to come back, and when he came back both my legs had fallen asleep...

I was still vacuuming the system, if there had been NH3 on the system, no way I would have crawled in there.

it all seemed good on the General Arrangement plan, but it didn't translate very well to reality.


on a side note... a guy who worked for the same company as I am working for, he spent days trying to fit our equipment on a General Arrangement plan without success.
His solution was to use "scale to fit" on the object he was placing :D luckily it was caught before he sent it to the shipyard :D


On another note, again :)
I think us refrigeration technicians are either born stupid, or we got dropped on our heads a lot when we were kids, because we are so focused on "Making things work" or "I can do this, I can fix it!" that we sometimes go above and beyond just because we want to "make it work again".
like in a situation where the safe thing to do would be to have the client call in a lift for you to get up to the valves you need to reach, a refrigeration technician sometimes thinks "I have to wait for two hours for the lift to arrive *pffft" those pipes seem pretty sturdy, I'll just shimmy my way up and fix this"

I know I have been there and done some stupid things I wouldn't even consider at the age I am at now.

Tycho
31-07-2015, 09:08 PM
On another side note :)

I once brought one of our project managers out on a plant during the commissioning stage (plant was running and we were doing filter cleanings).
he was walking around all gawky eyed taking in how his lines on a paper translated to real life pipes.
I had him watch as I cleaned the filters on one unit. (closing valves and purging ammonia, opening the filter, cleaning it and putting it back in (takes about 30 min all in all))

Then I asked him if he wanted to do the filters on the second unit, he is a mechanical guy and was all excited and said yes, so I closed off the valves, purged the ammonia, had him put his mask on and sent him on his way.
it took him close to 90 minutes to do it, his main problem was getting into position because of the filter placement. second problem was that he didn't trust that the pipe was empty, because the service valve was on top of the pipe :)

Anyways, we got all that changed :)

And his most telling comment was "I had no Idea" :)

RANGER1
31-07-2015, 09:48 PM
Well said Ranger1, Well said!

Here's a picture of me, from two days ago:
13838
What am I doing?
I'm aligning the motor to the lower compressor on a twin unit, I am wedged between the bulkhead and the compressor unit, the discharge valve is up my ar*e, the discharge pressure sensor is lodged in my chest and my legs are resting on the safety valve and discharge temperature sensor.

Funny thing, took me 10 minutes to get in there and in position so I could reach the bolts on the motor, my co-worker tells me "the laser just ran out of battery" *groan* I tell him there should be new ones in the case "nope"

So while I'm in there, I send him on a 20 minute drive to the store to get new batteries... I crawled up into a "comfortable" crouching position to wait for him to come back, and when he came back both my legs had fallen asleep...

I was still vacuuming the system, if there had been NH3 on the system, no way I would have crawled in there.

it all seemed good on the General Arrangement plan, but it didn't translate very well to reality.


on a side note... a guy who worked for the same company as I am working for, he spent days trying to fit our equipment on a General Arrangement plan without success.
His solution was to use "scale to fit" on the object he was placing :D luckily it was caught before he sent it to the shipyard :D


On another note, again :)
I think us refrigeration technicians are either born stupid, or we got dropped on our heads a lot when we were kids, because we are so focused on "Making things work" or "I can do this, I can fix it!" that we sometimes go above and beyond just because we want to "make it work again".
like in a situation where the safe thing to do would be to have the client call in a lift for you to get up to the valves you need to reach, a refrigeration technician sometimes thinks "I have to wait for two hours for the lift to arrive *pffft" those pipes seem pretty sturdy, I'll just shimmy my way up and fix this"

I know I have been there and done some stupid things I wouldn't even consider at the age I am at now.

Floor looked in ship shape, should be even more fun when floor gets a bit of oil & crap all over it in a year or two.

Tycho
31-07-2015, 11:29 PM
Floor looked in ship shape, should be even more fun when floor gets a bit of oil & crap all over it in a year or two.

I'm not even close to the floor mate :)

The black pipe on the right in the picture is the condenser water overboard pipe. I'm wedged between the bulkhead and the frame of the compressor unit :)

And I have told the machinist that the way I leave this room is the way I expect to find it the next time I come on board :D

You should send this to David :)

Josip
02-08-2015, 11:28 AM
Hi, Tycho :)


Well said Ranger1, Well said!

Here's a picture of me, from two days ago:
13838
What am I doing?
I'm aligning the motor to the lower compressor on a twin unit, I am wedged between the bulkhead and the compressor unit, the discharge valve is up my ar*e, the discharge pressure sensor is lodged in my chest and my legs are resting on the safety valve and discharge temperature sensor.

Funny thing, took me 10 minutes to get in there and in position so I could reach the bolts on the motor, my co-worker tells me "the laser just ran out of battery" *groan* I tell him there should be new ones in the case "nope"

So while I'm in there, I send him on a 20 minute drive to the store to get new batteries... I crawled up into a "comfortable" crouching position to wait for him to come back, and when he came back both my legs had fallen asleep...

I was still vacuuming the system, if there had been NH3 on the system, no way I would have crawled in there.

it all seemed good on the General Arrangement plan, but it didn't translate very well to reality.


on a side note... a guy who worked for the same company as I am working for, he spent days trying to fit our equipment on a General Arrangement plan without success.
His solution was to use "scale to fit" on the object he was placing :D luckily it was caught before he sent it to the shipyard :D


On another note, again :)
I think us refrigeration technicians are either born stupid, or we got dropped on our heads a lot when we were kids, because we are so focused on "Making things work" or "I can do this, I can fix it!" that we sometimes go above and beyond just because we want to "make it work again".
like in a situation where the safe thing to do would be to have the client call in a lift for you to get up to the valves you need to reach, a refrigeration technician sometimes thinks "I have to wait for two hours for the lift to arrive *pffft" those pipes seem pretty sturdy, I'll just shimmy my way up and fix this"

I know I have been there and done some stupid things I wouldn't even consider at the age I am at now.


Not only you ....

...what are you doing now I can only take a look ... or send in "Seven of nine" no way for me to do it ... Ok, in such situation, there are some slim guys with me ...

... at least your project manger was honest ... there is no too much to say ... just to change design philosophy i.e. put it in reality ...

Best regards, Josip :)