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Josip
14-06-2015, 10:41 PM
Hi, all :),

need some help regarding compressor from subject ...

actually it is HOWDEN- MK4-XRV 204193MVi

I cannot find what is distance between coupling flanges ...I can calculate it, but I hope someone is familiar with ;) ...

Another question is ... what about grinding of balance piston sleeves to get discharge end clearance i.e. is there too much material to grind or not ...

what if sleeves are too short i.e. outlet end clearance is bigger then 0,25 .. available some shims (like SAB units) or need to order new sleeves ... must be quite expensive then ...

Yes and there is a little gap on the top of slide valve on both side ... hope to be very quiet, because it is not on VFD but on 50Hz and actually is working at 100% most of the time ...

Rotors are like new with 35150 working hours ... no scratches at all ....

Thanks for your time and effort.

Best regards, Josip :)

RANGER1
14-06-2015, 11:42 PM
Josip,
Do you have manual & spare parts information?
If not I can send you something.
If so &'you need information maybe talk to Tycho direct.

Tycho
15-06-2015, 06:32 PM
Hi, all :),

need some help regarding compressor from subject ...

actually it is HOWDEN- MK4-XRV 204193MVi

I cannot find what is distance between coupling flanges ...I can calculate it, but I hope someone is familiar with ;) ...

Another question is ... what about grinding of balance piston sleeves to get discharge end clearance i.e. is there too much material to grind or not ...

what if sleeves are too short i.e. outlet end clearance is bigger then 0,25 .. available some shims (like SAB units) or need to order new sleeves ... must be quite expensive then ...

Yes and there is a little gap on the top of slide valve on both side ... hope to be very quiet, because it is not on VFD but on 50Hz and actually is working at 100% most of the time ...

Rotors are like new with 35150 working hours ... no scratches at all ....

Thanks for your time and effort.

Best regards, Josip :)

-What kind of coupling is it? picture or a name would help :) we have used two types and it's either 120mm or 140mm

-I have never had to grind the balance piston sleeves on the XRV204, my problem has always been too small end clearance, and that is remedied by shimming between the thrust bearings and the thrust bearing cover.
we have rolls of different kind of shims and cut them ourselves, I am not aware if you can order ready made shims.

I would not recommend grinding the sleeves, because they have to be perfectly plane and we are talking 0.01mm that has to be taken off :)

-if you need a smaller end clearance, you can shim between the body and thrust bearing covers.

As Ranger1 asks, do you have the manual at hand?
Remember that you need the special tools to preload the spring behind the thrust bearings before you torque the SKF nuts that hold the inner race of the thrust bearings in place, this is alpha and omega on the XRV204. if you don't do this you will never get the proper end clearance and the bearings will be shot in no time.

-The XRV range is notorious for "eating" the slopes on the slide valve or rotor tips (I have no idea why they don't upgrade them and add the slide valve guide like on the WRV range)

-The wear on the slide valve slopes I usually do by eye, if it looks like it can go for another 15.000, it's ok :)
(again, a picture would be nice :))

Josip
15-06-2015, 10:08 PM
Hi all,

thanks for your time and effort trying to help me .... sorry for my mistake ... I have a lot of Howden documentation ... but due to different manufacturers there are different couplings ...this one is SES unit ....


another excuse ..I was wrong ..compressor has 55150 working hours ... have been told that today ... it passes two years until my client realize that compressor's hour meter is restarting from 0 after 10000 working hours and they repaired that recently ... OK, not recently, but before 3 years


...so I have complete material ...overhaul done about 60% ... tomorrow we have to install screws into housing and then insert all parts on discharge side ... then suction side and .... start ... of course if all will be OK ... the most important is discharge gap ....

Tycho, you should remember tool from STAL compressors S51-57... tool No. 30 for thrust bearing nut there was SKF nut KM13 and here is the same size ...just need to tight it to 400Nm .. "piece of cake" ... torque wrench I have is up to 330Nm .. then to set up locking washer need to use raw manual force to align ... i.e. next groove on the nut and teeth on locking washer .... and that will be around 400Nm ... cannot be a big mistake (380Nm or 415Nm) ... I hope ....

Just return from site and if you can, please, send me info for both couplings 120/140 mm ... because tomorrow we planed to complete all and start compressor ...I can upload some photo of coupling, but not before tomorrow night ....

Direct question ..if I cannot find shims in rolls here (of course if I need shims) can you cut a pair and mail to me? Of course I will pay for.

Again, thanks all for help.


Best regards, Josip :)

Tycho
16-06-2015, 07:50 AM
Tycho, you should remember tool from STAL compressors S51-57... tool No. 30 for thrust bearing nut there was SKF nut KM13 and here is the same size ...just need to tight it to 400Nm .. "piece of cake" ... torque wrench I have is up to 330Nm .. then to set up locking washer need to use raw manual force to align ... i.e. next groove on the nut and teeth on locking washer .... and that will be around 400Nm ... cannot be a big mistake (380Nm or 415Nm) ... I hope ....

I'm not to familiar with the Stal compressor, but this is the tool we use to put tension on the disc springs before we tighten the SKF nut.
13788

tool is inserted into the thrust bearing housing and the bolts evenly tightened to 30Nm, and then we can tighten the skf nut like you said :)

Had a look at the couplings,

This type:
13789
The distance is 120mm

we didn't have any of the other type, but it's called Mayr ROBA-DS and the distance there should be 140mm if the faces are flat.
if there are indentations for the shim plates to settle in, the distance will set itself as long as the coupling on the motor shaft is loose.

Tycho
16-06-2015, 08:29 PM
Hope everything is going ok Josip :)

I was a bit short on time when I replied this morning, again, I can not stress enough that you need to have pressure on the conical disc spring by pushing in the outer race on the thrust bearings.

I did this mistake once or twice the first few times, and after torquing the KM13 nut to 400Nm and then applying the disc spring pre loader afterwards the nut could be turned by hand.

Anyways, hope it's just a misunderstanding and that you are busy running the system now :)

Josip
16-06-2015, 10:26 PM
Hi, Tycho :)

thanks for reply ....


I'm not to familiar with the Stal compressor, but this is the tool we use to put tension on the disc springs before we tighten the SKF nut.
13788

tool is inserted into the thrust bearing housing and the bolts evenly tightened to 30Nm, and then we can tighten the skf nut like you said :)


I will upload photo of Stal tool for KM nuts ... it is the same tool but different sizes according to KM nut in question ....

OK, very clever design, so you press disc spring with this tool and then need to tight inner rings, sorry, but still not clear to me what torque you use for KM13 nut ... the same 400 Nm or less

Another question ... thrust covers finally must bi tighten with 50 Nm and you use only 30 Nm to press plate springs is that enough ....



Had a look at the couplings,

This type:
13789
The distance is 120mm

we didn't have any of the other type, but it's called Mayr ROBA-DS and the distance there should be 140mm if the faces are flat.
if there are indentations for the shim plates to settle in, the distance will set itself as long as the coupling on the motor shaft is loose.

Here I have another type of coupling ... need to upload photos ... now is very late and hope to do that tomorrow ...

What we did today ... unfortunately, not finished the job due to problem with tools ...

Actually on male rotor we made first tightening with 330 Nm and then using additional tightening measuring angle of torque wrench and at the end came to gap of 0,24 mm ... what is OK, but

on the female rotor we had a problem ...using the same procedure as for male one but the final gap was 0,32 mm means something we did wrong ... it was too late today to start again ... there is a new day tomorrow ;) ... time to do and to learn something again ...

Now I borrow torque wrench with 400 Nm scale and tomorrow we start again from beginning ... this is the first time doing this compressor and we assume this like kind of school ... of course your idea is very good and I have to see if we can do the same ... thanks a lot for your help i.e. idea ... making job much more simple and easy ...

Sorry, if I ask too many questions ...

Best regards, Josip :)

Tycho
16-06-2015, 10:42 PM
Hi, Tycho :)

thanks for reply ....



I will upload photo of Stal tool for KM nuts ... it is the same tool but different sizes according to KM nut in question ....

OK, very clever design, so you press disc spring with this tool and then need to tight inner rings, sorry, but still not clear to me what torque you use for KM13 nut ... the same 400 Nm or less

Another question ... thrust covers finally must bi tighten with 50 Nm and you use only 30 Nm to press plate springs is that enough ....



Here I have another type of coupling ... need to upload photos ... now is very late and hope to do that tomorrow ...

What we did today ... unfortunately, not finished the job due to problem with tools ...

Actually on male rotor we made first tightening with 330 Nm and then using additional tightening measuring angle of torque wrench and at the end came to gap of 0,24 mm ... what is OK, but

on the female rotor we had a problem ...using the same procedure as for male one but the final gap was 0,32 mm means something we did wrong ... it was too late today to start again ... there is a new day tomorrow ;) ... time to do and to learn something again ...

Now I borrow torque wrench with 400 Nm scale and tomorrow we start again from beginning ... this is the first time doing this compressor and we assume this like kind of school ... of course your idea is very good and I have to see if we can do the same ... thanks a lot for your help i.e. idea ... making job much more simple and easy ...

Sorry, if I ask too many questions ...

Best regards, Josip :)

I took the 30Nm from memory, that might be for a XRV163, if the book says 50Nm for final tightening of the cover, than that is the same torque you should use for the spring loading tool.

I will check tomorrow morning what torque it is for the KM13 nut, but I think it's 350Nm, there should be a table of all the torques in the howden manual if you have one of those.

I only have the paper version, but I can scan it for you if you need it.
The howden manual is very descriptive and takes you through the dismantling and assembly step by step.

I usually do it my own way when I dismantle, but on assembly I follow the book to the letter :)

I'll PM you my Viber and Whatsapp so we can exchange pictures and questions on the go :)

Tycho
16-06-2015, 10:50 PM
Hi, Tycho :)

thanks for reply ....



I will upload photo of Stal tool for KM nuts ... it is the same tool but different sizes according to KM nut in question ....

OK, very clever design, so you press disc spring with this tool and then need to tight inner rings, sorry, but still not clear to me what torque you use for KM13 nut ... the same 400 Nm or less

Another question ... thrust covers finally must bi tighten with 50 Nm and you use only 30 Nm to press plate springs is that enough ....



Here I have another type of coupling ... need to upload photos ... now is very late and hope to do that tomorrow ...

What we did today ... unfortunately, not finished the job due to problem with tools ...

Actually on male rotor we made first tightening with 330 Nm and then using additional tightening measuring angle of torque wrench and at the end came to gap of 0,24 mm ... what is OK, but

on the female rotor we had a problem ...using the same procedure as for male one but the final gap was 0,32 mm means something we did wrong ... it was too late today to start again ... there is a new day tomorrow ;) ... time to do and to learn something again ...

Now I borrow torque wrench with 400 Nm scale and tomorrow we start again from beginning ... this is the first time doing this compressor and we assume this like kind of school ... of course your idea is very good and I have to see if we can do the same ... thanks a lot for your help i.e. idea ... making job much more simple and easy ...

Sorry, if I ask too many questions ...

Best regards, Josip :)

I took the 30Nm from memory, that might be for a XRV163, if the book says 50Nm for final tightening of the cover, than that is the same torque you should use for the spring loading tool.

I will check tomorrow morning what torque it is for the KM13 nut, but I think it's 350Nm, there should be a table of all the torques in the howden manual if you have one of those.

I only have the paper version, but I can scan it for you if you need it. Or maybe Ranger1 can work his magic and share it with us, since he is in a different time zone :D)
The howden manual is very descriptive and takes you through the dismantling and assembly step by step.

I usually do it my own way when I dismantle, but on assembly I follow the book to the letter :)

Also, when you put the thrust bearings in place, while the bearings are still warm, put the KM nut in place and overtighten it to make sure the bearings are seated.
also when you do the required torque, overtighten it until it's not humanly possible to tighten anymore without damaging the tools, then untighten it and tighten it to the required torque.
This way you are sure that everything is in place.

I have had a few times where the torque wrench clicked at the required torque, but I was still able to give the KM nut half a turn because the bearings weren't properly seated when I installed them.
So always overtighthen a little bit to make sure there is no give on the inner race of the bearings :)

I'll PM you my Viber and Whatsapp so we can exchange pictures and questions on the go if you need :)

Tycho
16-06-2015, 10:55 PM
btw, better to ask one question to many than one to little ;)

Josip
16-06-2015, 11:02 PM
Hi, Tycho :)

Hope everything is going ok Josip :)

I was a bit short on time when I replied this morning, again, I can not stress enough that you need to have pressure on the conical disc spring by pushing in the outer race on the thrust bearings.

I did this mistake once or twice the first few times, and after torquing the KM13 nut to 400Nm and then applying the disc spring pre loader afterwards the nut could be turned by hand.

Anyways, hope it's just a misunderstanding and that you are busy running the system now :)

Now is all clear .. I do hope ;)...

So after pressing outer bearing races with your tool with 30 Nm you tighten nut KM 13 with 400 Nm and there is no problem that KM nut is not tighten enough ... but if I tight KM nut directly with 400 Nm there can be loose nut, because 400 Nm in this case is not enough to push bearing inner races fully to the screw shoulder.

Yes, it is easy to lost something in translation ...

Thanks again and ...

Best regards, Josip :)

Tycho
16-06-2015, 11:57 PM
Hi, Tycho :)


Now is all clear .. I do hope ;)...

So after pressing outer bearing races with your tool with 30 Nm you tighten nut KM 13 with 400 Nm and there is no problem that KM nut is not tighten enough ... but if I tight KM nut directly with 400 Nm there can be loose nut, because 400 Nm in this case is not enough to push bearing inner races fully to the screw shoulder.

Yes, it is easy to lost something in translation ...

Thanks again and ...

Best regards, Josip :)


Outer bearing race should be pushed with the same Nm as the book says for final assembly (you said 50 Nm)

While the tool is inserted and tightened to the required torque, then and only then should you tighten the KM nut.

the special tool pre loads the disc spring to Xxx Nm, if you tighten the KM nut without the preload, you can tighten the KM nut to 1000Nm, but it will be loose when you put the thrust bearing covers in place.

I will send you the Howden manual tomorrow morning :)

To pre load the conical disc spring before you tighten the KM nut is the single most important thing you HAVE to do when overhaulig an XRV 163 or 204 compressor.

Tycho
16-06-2015, 11:58 PM
Hi, Tycho :)


Now is all clear .. I do hope ;)...

So after pressing outer bearing races with your tool with 30 Nm you tighten nut KM 13 with 400 Nm and there is no problem that KM nut is not tighten enough ... but if I tight KM nut directly with 400 Nm there can be loose nut, because 400 Nm in this case is not enough to push bearing inner races fully to the screw shoulder.

Yes, it is easy to lost something in translation ...

Thanks again and ...

Best regards, Josip :)


Outer bearing race should be pushed with the same Nm as the book says for final assembly (you said 50 Nm)

While the tool is inserted and tightened to the required torque, then and only then should you tighten the KM nut.

the special tool pre loads the disc spring to Xxx Nm, if you tighten the KM nut without the preload, you can tighten the KM nut to 1000Nm, but it will be loose when you put the thrust bearing covers in place.

I will send you the Howden manual tomorrow morning :)

To pre load the conical disc spring before you tighten the KM nut is the single most important thing you HAVE to do when overhaulig an XRV 163 or 204 compressor.

RANGER1
17-06-2015, 01:50 AM
Tycho I sent manual that I have but appears a bit different to how you describe.
Without seeing it it is a bit hard to picture.
I think thrust must come in a pre-assembled housing that you can only get from Howden?