2079 Safe Handling Certificate.

[Grizzly]

I was asked recently how do I prove whether an "Engineer" has a Safe Handling Certificate?
I don't know!
Short of challenging someone, is it possible to check up on them?
Grizzly

[frank]

As I understand it, all "engineers" with 2079 are registered with their firm via 1 of the registration companies, our being Refcom. I'm sure you can ask the registration body to confirm the details of the "engineer" but will buy a round of virtual doughnuts if I'm mistaken. :D

[Grizzly]

Thanks Frank for the input.
What about a single individual working for a company that was in the fridge industry, so dabbles with A/C
on their sites.
Grizzly

[Gibbo]

Grizzly

Maybe the site has copies of the engineers F Gas pretty sure they have to check all F Gas certificates of anybody carrying out work on site. I would ask the site to ask for his.

[Grizzly]

A Good point Gibbo.
Problem is this guy is employed by the site owners. As I said He works for them on their sites!

So before I go questioning the customer or one of their own, I was wondering if there is a central register.
My guess is not! And the whole (2079) "You must be qualified" is an expensive sham!
This same site buys their own refrigerants!
Discuss that!
Grizzly

[hyperion]

If the site are buying their own refrigerant then I would have thought that they would have to register with Refcom or does that only apply if you work as a contractor? In which case, they should have submitted the engineers own F-Gas Certificate number. Just done a check with Refcom site and you can find registered company details but not individuals.
If you can find a CSCS Card number for the engineer, then you can check that online.
Just tried that, they need far too many details, so that is no good.

[frank]

Grizzly

I found this on the DEFRA website

Reporting

If you suspect a business doesn’t have the correct certification or its staff aren’t appropriately qualified, you should contact the Environment Agency’s chemical compliance team at chemicalrestrictions@environment-agency.gov.uk
Enforcement

If you don’t comply with the F-gas or ODS Regulations you will be committing an offence and may have enforcement action taken against you, including prosecution.
Further information

Contact the Environment Agency’s chemical compliance team atchemicalrestrictions@environment-agency.gov.uk or the Environment Agency’s National Customer Contact Centre on 03708 506 506 for more information on the regulations.

[Rob White]

.

https://www.skillcard.org.uk/CheckCard.aspx

If they were ever registered they should be on this

Rob

.

[Grizzly]

Thanks for the help Guys it is appreciated.
This issues rather political at present however I have some very useful options for future use.
Thanks Grizzly
PS I have spread the love where I am allowed.

[Magoo]

Hi Grizzly.
a dumb question from the other side of the world, does this relate to R717 or ***** based refrigerants.

[Grizzly]

Hi Magoo
Not a dumb question when it is from someone on the other side of the world!
R717 is a separate 2078 Certificate
2079 is the latest updated 2078 Certificate for *****'s, ozone depleting refrigerants etc.
I don't remember it having any relevance with Co2 which I think is an all together separate Certificate again.
Oh! And then their is the "Care" Refrigerants to consider!!!
Grizzly

[Rob White]

.

In the UK we treat all refrigerants equally (even R718, water), but
we then expect a little more skill and knowledge regarding specials,
such as Ammonia, C02 and Hydro Carbons.

We are legally obliged to hold a refrigerant handling qualification and
the current version, which has been in place since 2009 is a qualification
that allows the holder to work on any refrigerant except Ammonia.

Ammonia is a different qualification and the guys who hold it tend to have
both the F-gas qual and the Ammonia qual.

We then treat HC and C02 as specialties and although we are allowed to use
them and work with them with the normal refrigerant handling qualification,
the industry like us to have extra quals in the use of these specials.

In the UK C02 and HC are treated as add ons to the legal qualification and they
prove industry competance, this is because C02 and HC are nether a Chlorine or
a Florine based gas, so they do not officially fall under the restrictions of Montreal
or Kyoto.

In the UK we tend to treat all refrigerants more or less equally but a little bit of
extra attention is placed on C02 and HC because they can have issues if not understood.

Ammonia is treated as a stand alone refrigerant and only specialists tend to work with it.

Regards

Rob

.

[Grizzly]

What a brilliant answer Rob!
You should consider being a Trainer!

Just joking my Friend.

Thanks Grizzly.

[joe-ice]

It does not seem to matter who has what certificate over here ,wholesalers sell to anybody who wants to buy gas and there does not appear to be any enforcement.The only job the enforcement body appears to do is collect fees.Makes a joke of the whole f-gas thing,it seems to be more about collecting revenue and the nothing to do with the environment.

[Grizzly]

It does not seem to matter who has what certificate over here ,wholesalers sell to anybody who wants to buy gas and there does not appear to be any enforcement.The only job the enforcement body appears to do is collect fees.Makes a joke of the whole f-gas thing,it seems to be more about collecting revenue and the nothing to do with the environment.


Hi Joe.
I don't know all the "in's and outs" but surely the wholesalers in Ireland are under the same EU rules that ours are under.
Which as was discussed on my thread The wholesaler's say Nah! very recently.
"Ours" are having to provide a usage trail from January and as such the movement and usage of refrigerants,
has shifted up the System.
Have a read and see what you think?
Grizzly

[cadwaladr]

I will wait and see what happens in 2015,got all my certs but never been asked for them but I don't subcontract but the amount of unqualified people I see buying refrigerant even propane based is a joke,not to mention too much but they purchase ofn and use regulators that are not safe with improvised adaptors?

[jonjon]

I will wait and see what happens in 2015,got all my certs but never been asked for them but I don't subcontract but the amount of unqualified people I see buying refrigerant even propane based is a joke,not to mention too much but they purchase ofn and use regulators that are not safe with improvised adaptors?

Itll be ok until somebody dies !

[Rob White]

.

People die all the time.

Anybody can do anything in this world as long as you have one of two things.

One is, you never get caught.
The other is, if you get caught have a good lawyer.

Most people doing wrong don't get into trouble because
things don't often go wrong. It's when the brown stuff
hits the spinning thing that causes the problems.

If you do a good job, to the standards and nothing goes wrong, nobody knows.
If you do a bad job, not to any standard and nothing goes wrong, nobody knows.

If you do a bad job, to no standards and it goes pear shaped, it is the standards
that are held against you and that is what they prosecute you with.

In 2012, 5 engineers (that I know of) died while carrying out refrigeration
based work and 67 were maimed. The ones who lived were prosecuted and
the ones who worked to the standards were cleared of all wrong doing, the
ones who did not were either fined or imprisoned.

Like it or not we are our own worst enemy. From 2015 if we see dodgy dealings
lets report it to the powers that be and lets not complain that the system is crap
because we are the system.

If we know that we might get into trouble if we do wrong, maybe we will act more
responsibly.

Just remember when the regulations were brought in, in 2007 and made law in 2009
the powers that be gave us a grace period and a soft start. They said they would
only police the supermarkets for the first 3 years and then role out enforcement
as we (the industry) get used to the regulations and requirements.

The supermarkets for the most part have been doing the correct thing, the next one
is your big facility management companies and companies with huge amounts of property
on the books. They are next.

The little one man band will be left alone for a good few years until we (the industry)
accept that better standards and regulation are here to stay.

Regards

Rob

.

[Grizzly]

Wow!
You are on form lately Rob.
Wise words yet again.
Grizzly

[cadwaladr]

Yes very wise and correct,another thing that worries me going off topic is the amount of estate cars being used by mainly ac guys,no vents no bulkhead no stickers with refrigerant nitro welding gear on board and kiddie seats installed? I cannot insure my van unless it has all the safety items fitted,ah well rant over.

[djbe]

Yes very wise and correct,another thing that worries me going off topic is the amount of estate cars being used by mainly ac guys,no vents no bulkhead no stickers with refrigerant nitro welding gear on board and kiddie seats installed? I cannot insure my van unless it has all the safety items fitted,ah well rant over.

This amazes me as well, these engineers working for large and supposed reputable companies running around with all kinds of unsecured kit in a load area that was just designed to carry shopping! Almost displays a cowboy like approach to the trade?

[Rob White]

.

The trouble again is the standards we work to.

The ADR states that to carry dangerous goods by road you have
to do it in the correct vehicle, displaying the correct warning labels
and with all the appropriate documentation to go with the dangerous
substance.

It also states that if you only carry a limited amount of stuff and
it works on a point system, you do not have to have a ventilated
vehicle with warning stickers on display.

It is all down to the regulations and knowing what is and what is not
legal. To work out of a car is seemed by some as a perk and it is
perfectly legal to carry dangerous stuff in them as long as the regulations
are adhered to.

People in vans break the law when they have stickers on display but
no stuff inside the vehicle, that the sticker is indicating. People in estate
cars with no warning stickers are not breaking the law.

So if you are a van driver, chances are you break the law more often than
a car driver.

See

http://www.uk.airliquide.com/file/otherelement/pj/f3/c4/7c/2c/l12009%20carriage4740739032372880930.pdf

Regards

Rob

.

[hyperion]

Good points Rob.

[Grizzly]

http://www.uk.airliquide.com/file/otherelement/pj/f3/c4/7c/2c/l12009%20carriage4740739032372880930.pdf

Just a little light reading then Rob!

Thanks Grizzly

[frank]

This one is a little worrying....assuming that it relates to the transport of cylinders below the threshold....

4. What will the authorities be looking for?

The police and VOSA (Vehicle & Operator Services Agency) working with guidance
from the HSE will be looking for breaches of the legislation. If identified the HSE
may prosecute offenders. The police will be looking for gas cylinder labels, potential
leaks and that appropriate securing devices have been fitted and are being utilised
correctly. They will also satisfy themselves that the driver has been trained and
understands the hazards and knows what to do in an emergency.

A good friend of mine who is a flat roofer recently got stopped by VOSA and they were looking for Fire Extinguishers in his van due to the cylinders of propane that he carried. Seems like they were having a purge on vehicles carrying propane. Might be our turn next.

[Rob White]

.

I have always said it is VOSA we need to be aware of.

The police know as much about things like this as Joe public,
it is the VOSA guys who set up check points and do random
stops of vehicles as they come into and out of towns / cities.

Rob

.

[hookster]

I must agree having had both types of vehicles over my career, I was amazed at being allowed to drive around in an estate car packed to the gunwales and then told by the office to just go and pick up a large gas cylinder from the wholesalers!

I personally hated the estate and the need to try and cram all my equipment into a vehicle then unload it onsite to try and get to the tools at the bottom. The van when well laid out neat and secured was the best tool in the business and made finding and carrying that extra bit of kit I was able to carry that I could not fit in the car.

Unsecured loads in a vehicle are an accident waiting to happen and at the end of the day you just want to go to work, do your job to the best of your ability and go home to your family.

For the employer never forget the vehicle you give your employees should be fit for purpose and ensure you are doing everything reasonably practicable to safe guard them.


The Health and Safety at Work Act sets out the duties of the employer to ensure, so far as is
reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare at work of all their employees and those who
may be affected by their work activities. This duty extends to the safety concerning the provision and
maintenance of plant, equipment and systems of work, the safety in handling, storing and transporting
articles and substances, and providing adequate training and supervision of employees in their work
activities. It also makes provision concerning the possession and use of dangerous substances.
No specific references are made in the Act concerning the safe restraint of vehicle cargo in a road
accident, but this is implied under the duties of the act set out for the employer. Principally it is stated
in the Act that an employer takes all reasonable and practical steps to ensure the safety and welfare of
their employees and others that may be affected by their work activities. The requirement for
“reasonable and practical steps” is particularly relevant for the safe restraint of cargo under accident
conditions. It implies that specific risks may be unavoidable on the grounds that there are no
reasonable and practical steps to completely eliminate the risk. For instance, there are inherent risks of
falling associated with employees using ladders or flights of stairs in their work activities. It is
impractical to consider that the risks from using ladders and stairs could be completely eliminated but
appropriate measures should be taken to manage the risks by providing, appropriate training in the use
of ladders and hand rails on stairwells. Similarly, in an accident it may not be possible to completely
eliminate the risk posed by cargo carried by a vehicle as the potential accident severity may limit the
reasonable and practical steps that could be taken to eliminate the risk of the cargo causing harm or
injury

[install monkey]

i got stopped by vosa in inverness- they were after dodgy diy ers who rip off the elderly- 1 copper suggested that i secure a piece of 15mm speedfit as it was unsecure- it was ratchet strapped tight and had done 400 mile with no drama- i said i would secure it over on the other side of the checkpoint- whilst doing this, some woman popped up and decided she was gonna weigh me!!- a 125bhp 280 transit- my back axle was 80kg over!!- 20 mins earlier i had just put 65 quids worth of diessel- prob about 80 kg, aparently your allowed 100kg over so was a close shave, so its a good idea to go to the recycling ctr and get weighed as its not 3.5 ton limit- check your vehicle theres a data plate for front and rear axle loads

[Grizzly]

i got stopped by vosa in inverness- they were after dodgy diy ers who rip off the elderly- 1 copper suggested that i secure a piece of 15mm speedfit as it was unsecure- it was ratchet strapped tight and had done 400 mile with no drama- i said i would secure it over on the other side of the checkpoint- whilst doing this, some woman popped up and decided she was gonna weigh me!!- a 125bhp 280 transit- my back axle was 80kg over!!- 20 mins earlier i had just put 65 quids worth of diessel- prob about 80 kg, aparently your allowed 100kg over so was a close shave, so its a good idea to go to the recycling ctr and get weighed as its not 3.5 ton limit- check your vehicle theres a data plate for front and rear axle loads

Enough to make me break out in a sweat!
Good points guys, the one I feel sorry for is our Apprentice (Read cheap go for with a Van!)
Who often fetches goods and materials, which I guess would be over the individual axle weight loads discussed above.
"We" are all on the forum helping to educate each other on the pitfalls and I know some are management or self employed.
Which is brilliant because they have a direct influence on what happens at the Coal Face!
For the rest of us, Read and Learn.
Thanks for the useful info Guys!
Something extra to discuss at the next Engineers Meeting I Guess?
I know our colleagues from across the different Seas have similar issues, maybe it's nice for them to realise they are not the only ones?
Grizzly

[monkey spanners]

Last company i worked for i had a renault master with a 1.5 ton capacity. The other guys had 1 ton mercedes vitos.

The master had about a 300kg axle tolerance which meant you could have the 1.5 ton more near the front or more near the back, so you did not need to worry too much where you put the heavy things. With the vito the 1 ton weight would have to be in exactly the right place, which in practice meant the vehicle could be under the gvw but an axle could be overloaded.

[djbe]

I must agree having had both types of vehicles over my career, I was amazed at being allowed to drive around in an estate car packed to the gunwales and then told by the office to just go and pick up a large gas cylinder from the wholesalers!

I personally hated the estate and the need to try and cram all my equipment into a vehicle then unload it onsite to try and get to the tools at the bottom. The van when well laid out neat and secured was the best tool in the business and made finding and carrying that extra bit of kit I was able to carry that I could not fit in the car.

Unsecured loads in a vehicle are an accident waiting to happen and at the end of the day you just want to go to work, do your job to the best of your ability and go home to your family.

For the employer never forget the vehicle you give your employees should be fit for purpose and ensure you are doing everything reasonably practicable to safe guard them.



I agree 100% but.. the problem is the employee also needs to say this is not safe, I need an appropriate vehicle for the job.
Realistically, these large firms should have the common sense to know an estate car is not a service vehicle, but maybe they are also pandering to many engineers who don't want to be seen in a van? Perhaps part of the package is a car which they can take their family out and about on the day off, a van is not so cool.

I think you may be an exception hookster but when I see "engineers" constantly changing out of bling white trainers to their safety boots then back again when the job is finished I just think why waste your time. And I would hazard a guess that these guy's don't want to be seen in a van either. Me, I don't give a monkey's, prefer my van over anything, prefer a pair of toecaps over anything, white trainers eeek...