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jdunc2301
16-05-2014, 11:10 PM
so how many of us are aware of the 3kg and 6kg threshold for leak checking changing to
tonnes of CO2... in 1-1-15

worked out based on the GWP of refrigerant x the charge weight

less than 5000 tonnes of CO2 on semi hermetic systems and less than 10000 tonnes on hermetic

a 410 system with a charge of 2.5kg

2088x2.5 = 5220

Only a matter of time before it gets even tighter...2017 onwards

had my fgas renewal this week

monkey spanners
16-05-2014, 11:22 PM
Didn't know that!
Got mine next week or week after!? Wish me luck...

Rob White
17-05-2014, 12:06 AM
.

This might be of interest.

I attended a CITB F-gas seminar and they explained the way they were going
forward over the next six years and also the requirements that have or will arise
from the EU directives regarding F-gases.

Some points of interest :-

In 2015 the production of HFC's will be capped and by 2021 production will be reduced to 45%,
2030 will reduce to 21% so over the 15 years HFC production will be "phased down".

Any domestic with a HFC GWP above 150 will be banned in 2015 (no more R134a only HydroCarbons).

Any commercial system with a GWP above 2500 will be banned by 2020 (no more R404A).

Any single split AC system above a GWP of 750 will be banned by 2025.

Training must now include the new refrigerants.

F-gas is to be the core subject and then bolt on qualifications, eg Hydrocarbon, C02 and
Ammonia will be additional extras.

City & Guilds do not, yet require a retest to prove competence but ACRIB are rumored to
want to go down the route of not recognising any qualification that is older than 72 months
(six years). That will mean if you want to renew the CSCS - ACRB card a retest will be required??

All pre-charged AC splits will be regulated and any refrigerant in them will count towards
the total phase down quota. So if manufacturers sell pre-charged splits the refrigerant
will be included in the whole HFC quota and there will be less to go around for other systems,
therefor the refrigerant will phase down quicker.

Leak test intervals is going to change from the 3kg yearly, 30kg six monthly and 300kg
quarterly to an equivalent to 5 tonnes C02.

GWP less than..... 5 tonnes of C02....................................... requires no visit
GWP less than..... 10 tonnes of C02 (hermetically sealed)..... requires no visit
GWP more than .....5 tonnes of C02......................................once a year
GWP more than.....50 tonnes of C02.....................................twice a year
GWP more than .... 500 tonnes of C02 ..................................quarterly

Fixed leak detection halves the yearly to once every two years.

Fixed leak detection shall be fitted to systems above 500 tonnes of C02.

The maths is to divide the refrigerant's GWP into the 5000kg for once a year
.........................................................................50,000kg for twice a year
.........................................................................500,000kg for quarterly.

R404A = 3922
R134a = 1430



404a......... 5000 divided by
................ 3922 = 1.27kg of 404a means one visit every 12 months.


134a............ 5000 divided by
................... 1430 = 3.49 of R134a means one visit every 12 months.


R404a with 12.7kg will require 2 vists and 127kg will require 4 visits.


The wholesaler is required to record F-gas certificate numbers and keep on file for 5 years.
The wholesaler must track the refrigerant to the cert number. Wholesalers will not be allowed to
sell refrigerants to non cert holders.

Operators must have a system in place to ensure the refrigerant can
be recovered and recycled or destroyed.

Manufactures are going to be encouraged to "PROMOTE" the removal
and replacement of HFC's by offering incentives like scrappage deals.


Any virgin refrigerant amount above GWP 40 tonnes of C02 will be
controlled on all new installs after 2020 and they will be limited to 10kg.

So a system with 10kg of virgin R404A will not be allowed after 2020.

R404A............. 4000 divided by
...................... 3922 = 10.1 kg of R404a

All reassessment training is in the EC 303/2008 document.

CAT II F-gas qualifications will be phased out because the weight limit
of refrigerant will be based on the GWP of C02.



Regards

Rob

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Brian_UK
17-05-2014, 09:31 PM
I'm really looking forward to retiring next year. ;)

hyperion
18-05-2014, 11:13 AM
As if the clients were not confused enough already, let alone the engineers.
If R134A is now deemed to be the 'bad guy', how come most of the chiller manufacturers have chosen to develop the latest models utilising relatively large quantities of R134A?
Anyone got a quick reference for kgs of R410A in tons of CO2 GWP please so that I can get an idea of the leak test frequency?

jdunc2301
18-05-2014, 07:37 PM
2088 GWP for 410

2.3kg on splits me thinks

Rob White
19-05-2014, 08:47 AM
As if the clients were not confused enough already, let alone the engineers.
If R134A is now deemed to be the 'bad guy', how come most of the chiller manufacturers have chosen to develop the latest models utilising relatively large quantities of R134A?
Anyone got a quick reference for kgs of R410A in tons of CO2 GWP please so that I can get an idea of the leak test frequency?

.

410a

5000 (5 tonne C02) / 1890 (GWP 410a) = 2.6kg

2.6kg of 410a means one visit every 12 months.

Rob

.

jdunc2301
19-05-2014, 12:38 PM
. 410a 5000 (5 tonne C02) / 1890 (GWP 410a) = 2.6kg 2.6kg of 410a means one visit every 12 months. Rob .

Buggers have changed it!!


11472

jdunc2301
19-05-2014, 12:40 PM
11473

Hope that helps

hyperion
19-05-2014, 02:54 PM
Am I right in thinking with the new guidance, that if a chiller has two circuits, each containing 32kgs of R134a, that each circuit would now only need leak testing once a year. However as the whole machine contains 64kgs of R134a, then in theory that would dictate leak testing twice a year.
If I am interpreting this correctly, this could make a potential saving for the client as there could therefore be a reduction in the leak testing frequency.

Rob White
19-05-2014, 04:39 PM
Buggers have changed it!!


11472


NO YOU ARE Probably right.

I used the last set of figures I had from memory
and two things we know for certain:-

My memory ain't what it used to be and
They change things that fast that they should include (accurate at time of publication)

:)

Regards

Rob

.

Rob White
19-05-2014, 04:41 PM
11473

Hope that helps

I can't green you, I have to spread my Luuuurrrrrrrrv around.

Regards

Rob

.

jdunc2301
19-05-2014, 06:07 PM
I tried to green you...didn't work....might have to attend another over priced training course ;)

jdunc2301
19-05-2014, 06:13 PM
Am I right in thinking with the new guidance, that if a chiller has two circuits, each containing 32kgs of R134a, that each circuit would now only need leak testing once a year. However as the whole machine contains 64kgs of R134a, then in theory that would dictate leak testing twice a year.
If I am interpreting this correctly, this could make a potential saving for the client as there could therefore be a reduction in the leak testing frequency.


Its treated per circuit, so treating your system as a 32kg Hermetically sealed per circuit would give it a 45760 co2
The threshold looks like your just in for a 1x p/year check.

It is worth noting that any systems installed before 1-1-2015 don't have to comply until 1-1-2017. Any systems installed after 1-1-2015, comply immediately.

But your right it may well save some people money, they look to be pulling the thresholds down in anticipation of getting rid of HFC

Looks like R32 is the next favourite...apparently, but its slightly flammable. maybe Rob knows more on that

jdunc2301
19-05-2014, 06:14 PM
Am I right in thinking with the new guidance, that if a chiller has two circuits, each containing 32kgs of R134a, that each circuit would now only need leak testing once a year. However as the whole machine contains 64kgs of R134a, then in theory that would dictate leak testing twice a year.
If I am interpreting this correctly, this could make a potential saving for the client as there could therefore be a reduction in the leak testing frequency.

Or sell them an auto leak detection system and do it once every 2 years

Rob White
20-05-2014, 12:25 AM
Its treated per circuit, so treating your system as a 32kg Hermetically sealed per circuit would give it a 45760 co2
The threshold looks like your just in for a 1x p/year check.

It is worth noting that any systems installed before 1-1-2015 don't have to comply until 1-1-2017. Any systems installed after 1-1-2015, comply immediately.

But your right it may well save some people money, they look to be pulling the thresholds down in anticipation of getting rid of HFC

Looks like R32 is the next favourite...apparently, but its slightly flammable. maybe Rob knows more on that



That's what I have heard also :)

R32 is 50% of 410a and it is being pushed hard
for use in AC systems by certain AC manufacturers.


CH2F2
Difluoromethane (R32)
CAS Number : 75-10-5
UN3252

***** 32; R 32; Methylene difluoride; Methylene fluoride; Carbon fluoride hydride; halocarbon R32; fluorocarbon R32;

http://www.msds-al.co.uk/assets/file_assets/SDS_130-CLP-DIFLUOROMETHANE_R32.pdf

http://www.msds-al.co.uk/assets/file_assets/SDS_130-CLP-DIFLUOROMETHANE_R32.pdf

It is flammable From the Safety Data Sheet.

• Hazard statements : H220 : Extremely flammable gas.
H280 : Contains gas under pressure; may explode if heated.

Disposal considerations

General : Avoid discharge to atmosphere.
Do not discharge into areas where there is a risk of forming an explosive mixture
with air. Waste gas should be flared through a suitable burner with flash back arrestor.

Regards

Rob

Rob White
20-05-2014, 12:36 AM
.

Just found this

R32

Flammability limits in air (STP conditions) : 14-31 vol%

so you need far more concentrations of the stuff before it will burn,
compared to butane or propane which are between 2 - 10%

kg/m3 0.306 A room 5 x 5 x 2 (50 m3) would take 15kgs before it burnt
So it is a lot safer than the refrigerant we currently use.

Rob

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