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Josip
16-05-2014, 08:26 PM
Hi dear colleagues :)

I have one doubt and would like to hear your opinion, experience, maybe some link to relevant rules, legislation, norms.

Question: is it allowed to install ammonia chiller (charge of 20+ kg of NH3) for cooling of water/brine for AC unit for whole building. Complete plant would be installed within engine room which will be a part of building. Not sure now where would be engine room ... ground level, sub ground level or on the top level.

Please, do not suggest me to use some other refrigerant ....;)

Thanks for your time and effort.

Best regards, Josip :)

RANGER1
16-05-2014, 09:11 PM
josip,
It has been done, but exact details I don't know.
I believe a low charge system of about 25kg Sabroe chiller.
Relief valves piped to cooling water or condenser sump.
Condenser is a plant room scrubber.
This particular one is on a city council roof top.

This unit was installed by an Australian company Scantec. If you go to their website
you have to request to look at the more detailed information.

Engineer is Stefan Jensen Danish who designed it, probably find him on Linkedin.

http://www.scantec.com.au/project/view/project-4

RANGER1
16-05-2014, 09:25 PM
http://www.scantec.com.au/services/

They do some nice work as seen on their website

cricri
17-05-2014, 10:06 AM
Josip,
for roof top installation you can try this type of unit: http://www.gearefrigeration.com/en-uk/Components/Chillers/Grasso-Ingenium-Compact-Plus/Pages/IngeniumCompactPlus.aspx

other units are available similar to Sabroe units
about rules and regulation, it depend from the country and France is a bad exemple....
regards

Peter_1
17-05-2014, 05:45 PM
Is it to install in a European country Josip?

Josip
18-05-2014, 10:09 AM
Hi, Ranger1, cricri

thanks for your valuable inputs ....


Is it to install in a European country Josip?

Yes Peter, here in Croatia ... but, so many questions/doubts from government agencies ...

Best regards, Josip

RANGER1
18-05-2014, 11:59 AM
Hi, Ranger1, cricri

thanks for your valuable inputs ....



Yes Peter, here in Croatia ... but, so many questions/doubts from government agencies ...

Best regards, Josip


Josip,
Maybe try Stefan, he also struggled & to the best of my knowledge only one installed.
Propane systems in similar scenario, but JCI have installed them throughout Europe I would imagine.
Only heard of one propane system on a high rise in Sydney, but of course the first is the hardest, as to change the mindset of people.

Tycho
19-05-2014, 09:39 PM
Hi dear colleagues :)

I have one doubt and would like to hear your opinion, experience, maybe some link to relevant rules, legislation, norms.

Question: is it allowed to install ammonia chiller (charge of 20+ kg of NH3) for cooling of water/brine for AC unit for whole building. Complete plant would be installed within engine room which will be a part of building. Not sure now where would be engine room ... ground level, sub ground level or on the top level.

Please, do not suggest me to use some other refrigerant ....;)

Thanks for your time and effort.

Best regards, Josip :)

Hi Josip :)

I attended a refrigeration seminar a few years back where this was addressed.

The guy holding the lecture is a "Guru" within refrigeration in norway.

He didn't say anything about any laws governing the use of ammonia in a densely populated area, he did however say that as long as the safety measures were in place and the refrigerant charge was as small as possible for the system to function, there was no regulations saying you couldn't do it.

However, the government could slam you with regulations regarding the use of a toxic gas and stuff like that.

But if you design the system to be as fail safe as possible, with an abundance of gas detectors, with SMS or pager alerts to technical personnel, and designed the system in a way that would ensure that any gas release from the safety valve would be above any adjoining buildings and wouldn't drift "downtown", or better yet, if you employed ammonia scrubbers as I mentioned in another thread, with any release of ammonia from the safety line, or from the machinery room itself would pass through a mist of water and hydrochloric acid which would absorb and crystallize the ammonia, it should be safe :)

But that's just what he said :)