Meat Cutter needs Refrigeration Friends!

[edt966]

Hello, Newbie here. Retired butcher wanting to open meat shop. I like to run a small freezer (4x8x8) and cooler (20x8x8). I'd like to build it myself to save a few bucks. I saw this on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TECUMSEH-3-4hp-REFRIGERATION-COMPRESSOR-HGA9468ZXA-/380127334398?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item58815acffe

TECUMSEH 3/4hp REFRIGERATION COMPRESSOR HGA9468ZXA

I understand the basics (and I mean basics), but not the lingo or details. So, my goal here is to make contact with folks that know there stuff and get myself nudged in the right direction. My electrical source will be whatever is typical of residential. I don't want 3 phase.

Thanks

[Rob White]

.
You are starting at the wrong point. You need to know the loading's on the 2 rooms
and then you size the evaporator. Then you size the compressor.

The compressor has no electrics with it and it is only suitable
for 0 deg applications ( I know you Americans use Fahrenheit so if it is degF then thats ok)

You do not need a compressor though, you need the whole condensing unit.
It does not make economical sense to try and build a condensing unit from
component parts, just buy the whole thing.

Something like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aspera-Freezer-Condensing-Unit-/271313259312

or

http://http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Embraco-Indoor-Walk-In-Cooler-1hp-R404-Condensing-Unit-208-230V-Single-Phase-/281201009981?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4178e2e53d (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Embraco-Indoor-Walk-In-Cooler-1hp-R404-Condensing-Unit-208-230V-Single-Phase-/281201009981?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4178e2e53d)

Not necessarily this one but one like it.

I personally think you will be fighting a losing battle to try and do this all by
yourself. Build the boxes by all means and even buy the equipment but if
you try and do the refrigeration yourself, you will be asking for trouble and
end up paying more in the long run to put it right.

Rob

.

[edt966]

Rob,

Thanks for your reply, that was just what I was looking for. I was actually looking at that (your second suggestion) unit.

I don't want to spend big bucks and I don't know what I'm doing, so maybe you guys could suggest what to buy? That would help. As for assembly, what I can't beg for I'll hire. Let's just start with the cooler load:

Cubic Feet: 8*15*8
Walls/Floor: 2x6 with rigid insulation and decent R factor
Ambient Temp: (outside, right?): Oct, Nov, Dec only (hunting season) 50 degrees average (Seattle, WA)
Holding Temp:45 degrees
Received Product Temp: Cool (often), Chilled/Frozen (sometimes), Hot Carcass (very rare)
Volume: Peaks (less), Valleys (more), i.e. Mon-Thur (6 Deer) vs. Fri-Sun (14)
Activity: In/Out Open/Close (little)
Moisture: Meat arrives dry/cool. For me, dry=better, so some moisture loss OK by me.

So please suggest Condensing Units and then how do I correlate the Evaporator/Defroster?

Thanks.

[install monkey]

as rob says- by all means buy the kit, but get it sized correctly and installed properly- its like giving me a dead pig and askin me to disect it- anyone can go at it with a hammer but ur gammon chops wouldnt look appetising:rolleyes:

[Magoo]

Hi.
best idea is to spend a few dollars for a design and heat load calculation only. From a reputable local company and get a handle on what is required. May scare the hell out of you, but will be a base line to work to.
Get anything wrong doing everything yourself and you will loose your shirt

[Magoo]

A cheap start up option is getting hold of two refrigerated containers, run one as chill and the other as frozen.

[edt966]

Those containers are too big for my needs. Thanks for the suggestion. Anybody else going to chime in?

Cubic Feet: 8*15*8
Walls/Floor: 2x6 with rigid insulation and decent R factor
Ambient Temp: (outside, right?): Oct, Nov, Dec only (hunting season) 50 degrees average (Seattle, WA)
Holding Temp:45 degrees
Received Product Temp: Cool (often), Chilled/Frozen (sometimes), Hot Carcass (very rare)
Volume: Peaks (less), Valleys (more), i.e. Mon-Thur (6 Deer) vs. Fri-Sun (14)
Activity: In/Out Open/Close (little)
Moisture: Meat arrives dry/cool. For me, dry=better, so some moisture loss OK by me.

[edt966]

Anybody???

My best estimate (based on quick calculations) is something about 7,000 BTU @ 25 Degrees suction???

Thanks in advance :)

[Rob White]

.

People are reluctant to help because what you ask is extremely complex.

We understand your plight and we try to help individuals, but you come with
just too much for us to deal with.

First off you openly admit that you know nothing about refrigeration and then
you say you want to do it all yourself.

There a legal implication regarding working with refrigerants and electrics in Europe
and that is where a good percentage of the forum members are from, the others are
from Australia, Asia and the US, we all have local laws that dictate what we can
and can't do and it takes us years and a lot of money to gain that knowledge and
qualification level.

You then ask for us to do all the calculations, when we know you will not be able
to follow it through and complete the job.

So I respectfully suggest that you seek professional assistance and then if you require
advice or help everyone on this site will bend over backwards to help you.

Its not what you want to hear I know but we can't tell you how to design and build
2 cold rooms when you have no knowledge about how to do it.

Regards

Rob

.

[edt966]

Rob,

I must respectfully call B.S.

People aren't chiming in because their looky-loo's.

This job is NOT "extremely complex".

The calculations are rudimentary and quick.

Legal implications? The Society of Refrigeration or the Coolant Police???

Before I shell out any big bucks:

I'll buy a Pint and Lunch (via PayPal) for an economical suggestion!

Walk-in Cooler, aforementioned. Walk-in Freezer, same as aforementioned except 4*4*8.

I can hire out what I don't know how to do. But no sense in paying someone to sit at a desk and thumb through a catalog, order stuff, and charge me mark-up.

Thanks guys, I know you'll come through. I mean it: a Pint and Lunch!

[joe-ice]

Why not go look for second hand equipment.Some rooms actually come with an integrated unit built into the coldroom panels so any handyman could assemble complete.I would doubt their would be much end difference price wise between a self build and second hand and save a lot of hassle on sizing and what can go tits up if you size it wrong

[edt966]

Joe-ice,

Joe-ice, thanks.

I have looked for used, but there's not much where I am. Besides, I think buying new works best for my needs in the long run.

I should also elaborate, I will be mounting the unit(s) on a trailer or truck-bed so as to make it more movable. I don't mean mobile, i.e. traveling to the customer, but rather setting up shop somewhere for 3 months to do game/sausage business, shut it down, then put it in storage during the off-season.

[mad fridgie]

Rob,

Thanks for your reply, that was just what I was looking for. I was actually looking at that (your second suggestion) unit.

I don't want to spend big bucks and I don't know what I'm doing, so maybe you guys could suggest what to buy? That would help. As for assembly, what I can't beg for I'll hire. Let's just start with the cooler load:

Cubic Feet: 8*15*8
Walls/Floor: 2x6 with rigid insulation and decent R factor
Ambient Temp: (outside, right?): Oct, Nov, Dec only (hunting season) 50 degrees average (Seattle, WA)
Holding Temp:45 degrees
Received Product Temp: Cool (often), Chilled/Frozen (sometimes), Hot Carcass (very rare)
Volume: Peaks (less), Valleys (more), i.e. Mon-Thur (6 Deer) vs. Fri-Sun (14)
Activity: In/Out Open/Close (little)
Moisture: Meat arrives dry/cool. For me, dry=better, so some moisture loss OK by me.

So please suggest Condensing Units and then how do I correlate the Evaporator/Defroster?

Thanks.

I need a very big piece of meat, how much will it cost?

[monkey spanners]

What you want is some old truck bodies from some small delivery trucks, or why not get a two temperature delivery truck, would save towing anything about and would have everything there you need, you'd just have to either put diesel in it or run it off mains backup.

[mad fridgie]

Based upon your numbers, which mean little, then your load is 1.2Kw or 4094Btu

[edt966]

What you want is some old truck bodies from some small delivery trucks, or why not get a two temperature delivery truck, would save towing anything about and would have everything there you need, you'd just have to either put diesel in it or run it off mains backup.

Looking into it. A little pricey up front for something with quality.

[edt966]

Based upon your numbers, which mean little, then your load is 1.2Kw or 4094Btu

What's missing? Thought I hit the key variables a salesman would ask me.

[mad fridgie]

how much meat "mass"?
what temp meat?
How is the meat to be stored, as whole or butchered.
How quick to chill.
Whats is the variants in ambient wet and dry bulb?
What is the R value.
How many times are you going in
Is there lights
The devil is in the detail.
Can you please give Rob an apology, he was correct in his statements. There is a big difference here we are not salesmen, we are engineers who sell.

[edt966]

how much meat "mass"? Deer hang about 120 lbs. Elk/Moose double. Volume won't be constant.
what temp meat? Aforementioned
How is the meat to be stored, as whole or butchered. Hanging
How quick to chill. Aforementioned
Whats is the variants in ambient wet How's this apply? and dryAformentioned bulb?
What is the R value.Aforementioned
How many times are you going in Aforementioned
Is there lights No
The devil is in the detail. It's a freaking tiny walk in cooler. How complicated can it be?
Can you please give Rob an apology, he was correct in his statements. OK, Sorry Rob...There is a big difference here we are not salesmen, we are engineers who sell.

I take it you don't have big game on your island?

[monkey spanners]

I take it you don't have big game on your island?

:D The room size is not the only consideration...

Basically what you've asked is like going to a car dealer and saying you need a vehicle, a cheap one. Now he don't know if its just for taking your chihuahua to the vets or for transporting the marching band on a nationwide tour.

You could be putting one chilled deer in a week or five blood hot bodies a day.
A system that suits packed meat will dry out a carcass.
Different meats have different cooling requirements for optimum quality.
You could be in and out every half hour or only once a week, air changes and lighting make a difference to the duty.
Even where in the world you are will influence what system is best.


As an example of a couple of recent projects, a small walk in cooler system came out around 3.5k, a similar sized blast chiller worked out above 30k.....

You've asked for cheap, we all know from experience that the cheapest system is one installed professionally, not necessarily in up front cost but it will be cheaper to run, maintain and service with less lost stock due to failure.

[mikeref]

"HOW COMPLICATED CAN IT BE?"
For starters: There has to be a MAXIMUM weight of meat to be chilled and the same for freezer. Down the track you decide to store another 500 LBS? You lose.
Chiller and freezer kits have to be sized according to the warmest ambient. 50*F average for that time of the year/ season? What are you going to use the rooms for during the rest of the year?

[edt966]

You could be putting one chilled deer in a week or five blood hot bodies a day...Already answered this...

A system that suits packed meat will dry out a carcass Didn't ask for a system for packed meat...haven't had a hunter shrink wrap his kill...yet!

Different meats have different cooling requirements for optimum quality..Mostly Venison...usually refuse the Elephant or Opossum hunters...

You could be in and out every half hour or only once a week, air changes and lighting make a difference to the duty...Um, answered this too...

Even where in the world you are will influence what system is best And this...

You've asked for cheap This is cheap (I kind of like it): Coolbot (http://www.storeitcold.com/)

No wonder you guys are so Dad Burn expensive. Redundancy = More Billable Time.

Typical Engineers :D

[edt966]

For starters: There has to be a MAXIMUM weight...There already is a MAXIMUM weight built in...when the door don't close I'm FULL!!! Alright, I'll be nicer...my allotted square footage is proportionate to my output capabilities.

Chiller and freezer kits have to be sized according to the warmest ambient. 50*F average for that time of the year/ season?Actually yes. Very mild Winters here...

What are you going to use the rooms for during the rest of the year? Shut 'er down! This is a seasonal gig.

So, how complicated can it be?

[hookster]

:D http://www.storeitcold.com/

That little coolbot link you inserted made me chuckle! be sure to read this page before purchasing.

http://www.storeitcold.com/disadvantages.html

Just be aware an air conditioning unit can not handle a high latent heat load from your wet carcass and will promote mold growth in your hanging chamber.

There is nothing stopping you building your own hanging chamber and fitting a Zanotti (Other manufacturers available) type uniblock refrigeration unit. Cut hole stick in power up!!

http://www.zanotti.com/product_attachments/view/21

You appear to just want to shoot it, hang it, eat it! This is the sort of option you require.
When you want to go into the commercial market then you come to us Dad Burn Expensive Guys!!

We deliver designs based on:
lowest product weight losses
optimum holding conditions
energy efficiency
HACCP compliance
Service and maintenance considerations

:cool: have fun and a well hung haunch posted to the UK would be eaten with Gusto lol

[joe-ice]

These guys have a free online calculator might help give unit and cooler sizes


http://www.intarcon.es/

[edt966]

Awww! I knew you nerds had a soft side ;)

Thanks, I'll check them out.

[NewmanRef]

Rob,

I must respectfully call B.S.

People aren't chiming in because their looky-loo's.

This job is NOT "extremely complex".

The calculations are rudimentary and quick.

Legal implications? The Society of Refrigeration or the Coolant Police???

Before I shell out any big bucks:

I'll buy a Pint and Lunch (via PayPal) for an economical suggestion!

Walk-in Cooler, aforementioned. Walk-in Freezer, same as aforementioned except 4*4*8.

I can hire out what I don't know how to do. But no sense in paying someone to sit at a desk and thumb through a catalog, order stuff, and charge me mark-up.

Thanks guys, I know you'll come through. I mean it: a Pint and Lunch!

The guy sitting at the desk and ordering stuff will have worked very hard to size and select a suitable system for you. He will apply some mark-up BUT he will get the equipment cheaper than you in the first place because you are a butcher NOT a fridge company. He will then have the equipment correctly installed by professional engineers and in having done so will be able to warrant the equipment for sometimes as long as 5 years.

It looks as though you have made your mind up on this one and I wish you the best of luck but it would be dangerous for me to offer you any advice.

[edt966]

The guy sitting at the desk and ordering stuff will have worked very hard* to size and select a suitable system for you.

Whatever. I clearly am out of my element here with regards to refrigeration. But I am experienced enough to know that my request, given my variables, is well within the parameters of a quick calculation or professional estimate from something dog-eared under the counter such as this (http://blog.uscooler.com/load-calc.pdf) or this (http://www.industrialcontrolsonline.com/training/online/refrigeration-load-sizing-walk-coolers-freezers-other-boxes). This is a simple job. And while it does require professionalism, training, and experience, I would expect to be billed only for services necessary...not a bunch of *fluffy adjectives!


...it would be dangerous for me to offer you any advice.

If ya can't stand the heat of a small cooler job, go back to your cubicle!

Regards

;)

P.S. Veterans Day here today...thank a Vet if you feel inclined. God Bless America and our friends over the Atlantic too!

[mad fridgie]

You have a peak demand of 3391 BTU and average of 2098 BTU.

This based upon you want some drying effect, so the refrig needs to run at least 18hrs a day.
Also taking into consideration of the low cond temps, you are likely to need a nominal 1/3HP. (but that comes down to local supply)

But if the ambient goes above 50f, or the product enters above 50f and/or you enter it more than 6 times a day.
But this what you have indicated as being the case.

When quoting I always indicate at the start of the quote the information supplied by the client, and that is what a contract is based upon.

[edt966]

Mad Fridgie,

Thanks. I like seeing 1/3 HP vs. 1 HP given utility costs, especially if I'm only holding a few carcasses during lull times.

Historical records give me confidence in the ambient temperatures, carcasses almost never come in hot (even so it could hang outside to initially cool), and I'm conscientious of heat loss due to open/close. Thanks for mentioning those variables in your recommendation.

On another note, what are some methods to seal the cracks between rigid insulation sheets? I hoping to hear of some sort of spray foam product that will harden and then be trimmed flush.

[wolfer]

Hello, Newbie here. Retired butcher wanting to open meat shop. I like to run a small freezer (4x8x8) and cooler (20x8x8). I'd like to build it myself to save a few bucks. I saw this on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TECUMSEH-3-4hp-REFRIGERATION-COMPRESSOR-HGA9468ZXA-/380127334398?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item58815acffe

TECUMSEH 3/4hp REFRIGERATION COMPRESSOR HGA9468ZXA

I understand the basics (and I mean basics), but not the lingo or details. So, my goal here is to make contact with folks that know there stuff and get myself nudged in the right direction. My electrical source will be whatever is typical of residential. I don't want 3 phase.

Thanks

Well, here goes... I'm blowing my virgin post on asking how did your first season of processing wild game go?
(Sitting in my trapping cabin, get a "happy birthday" from this lost forum- nice touch).
Did many game processing coolers & am curious how you did with the recommended 1/3hp system on a 1000cf cooler having 14 deer over the weekend!!!
Cooling load cannot be based on "average" ambient.
240lb weight of elk/moose hanging sides??
I'm not sure about the 45f holding temp either.

Hi to all on here, appears to be a great forum.

[Gary]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he had nothing but problems. With his attitude, I'm surprised he got as much help as he did.