PDA

View Full Version : I don't often get stuck but......







sokold
08-10-2013, 12:06 AM
This has happened a couple of times to me lately.....Ive fitted a replacement controller one was an elliwell id series and one supplied by foster, an LAE.
So I wired them in as per usual and connected up the new probes and when I switched the thing on, the temperature read 104 degrees. So I stuck a generic electric defrost controller on and no probs!!

Anyone had this happen to them and any ideas why??

And while I'm at it....what is the reason for having 12/24v supplies to the controllers instead of 240v? It can't be to save electricity and if I have to change one I just bypass the transformer and no problems. (you can have only so many spare controllers on the van so I just have 240v supply ones)
There must be a reason but I'm gosh darned if I can think of any kind of engineering advantage....someone please enlighten me :)

Oh yeah, one other thing...why would a bog standard double door upright fridge need three very expensive pcb's and a spaghetti junction of wiring to turn the compressor and evap. fans on and off?.....off cycle defrost too!

To save the customer hundreds of pounds I bypass all the electronic rubbish that for instance Gram insist on fitting to their fridges (I do think they are well made, If unnecessarily electrically complicated) and just run the thing from a carel controller which is quite capable of handling the switching load.

Maybe I'm missing something...maybe I'm not...I don't know lol

The Viking
08-10-2013, 12:27 AM
Mark up on spares...
Guaranteed spares sales when "standard" isn't the standard and markup on spares...

:cool:
(I used to just be cynical, nowadays I'm old and cynical.)

hookster
08-10-2013, 06:29 AM
It is about lethal voltages, 24v is a far safer operating voltage.
Although AC has the benefit of lower volt drop over distance, electronic components are essentially mostly DC therefore the AC controller will have to convert adding to cost and complexity.
AC switching induces magnetism and varying current magnitude which can have an impact on electronics.

As for your probe problem you probably have an NTC on a PTC controller or vice versa.

sokold
08-10-2013, 08:07 AM
It is about lethal voltages, 24v is a far safer operating voltage.
Although AC has the benefit of lower volt drop over distance, electronic components are essentially mostly DC therefore the AC controller will have to convert adding to cost and complexity.
AC switching induces magnetism and varying current magnitude which can have an impact on electronics.

As for your probe problem you probably have an NTC on a PTC controller or vice versa.

NTC/PTC.....yeah I tried changing the parameters (1st thing I thought of) but made no difference. Maybe I was supplied with incompatible probes....still not sure.

If 240 is viewed as too dangerous, then fair enough....but they all have to have a 240 feed to them for the compressor/defrost/fan relays. So I don't think safety is an issue and 240 v controllers work fine (mostly).

Plus I can get a new controller for under 30 quid which will replace much more expensive ones.

sokold
08-10-2013, 08:23 AM
Mark up on spares...
Guaranteed spares sales when "standard" isn't the standard and markup on spares...

:cool:
(I used to just be cynical, nowadays I'm old and cynical.)

But we can convert them to standard **evil laugh**

nike123
08-10-2013, 08:48 AM
After changing of probe type in parameters you need to turn power supply off and than on for Eliwell ID controlers.
Then, if you have original Eliwell probes PTC or NTC type, it will show correct temperatures.

For LAE, I don't know and I don't care, since I never ever using them. It is enough that Eliwell is Maid in PRC. I don't need another PRC s..t;)

Tayters
08-10-2013, 10:04 AM
And while I'm at it....what is the reason for having 12/24v supplies to the controllers instead of 240v? It can't be to save electricity and if I have to change one I just bypass the transformer and no problems. (you can have only so many spare controllers on the van so I just have 240v supply ones)
There must be a reason but I'm gosh darned if I can think of any kind of engineering advantage....someone please enlighten me :)



Welcome to the path of enlightenment grasshopper. Well, I'm no Mr Miyagi but after working on a refrigerated van with an LAE controller it made we wonder if the 12V version was made to go in vehicles as well.

Cheers, Andy.

Rob White
08-10-2013, 10:11 AM
.

I find one of these

10807

helps with problematic controllers.

Sort of a stress reliever :D


Rob

.

PaulZ
08-10-2013, 10:49 AM
Hi Rob
A very handy tool that's for sure.
Paul

nike123
08-10-2013, 02:29 PM
I call it "persuader"!

sokold
08-10-2013, 03:59 PM
After changing of probe type in parameters you need to turn power supply off and than on for Eliwell ID controlers.
Then, if you have original Eliwell probes PTC or NTC type, it will show correct temperatures.

For LAE, I don't know and I don't care, since I never ever using them. It is enough that Eliwell is Maid in PRC. I don't need another PRC s..t;)

good point about turning them on and off, I'm fairly sure I did that....but to be honest I can't remember. .....Stored away in the memory bank for next time :)

Don't get me started on Chinese made kit....just look at the decline in quality of danfoss mag valves...they used to be ultra reliable, now they're a liability on every system they're installed on. They were even selling replacement O ring kits for them a while ago because of the high failure rate. But what are we meant to do...use Parker stuff :(

sokold
08-10-2013, 04:03 PM
Welcome to the path of enlightenment grasshopper. Well, I'm no Mr Miyagi but after working on a refrigerated van with an LAE controller it made we wonder if the 12V version was made to go in vehicles as well.

Cheers, Andy.
I've managed to avoid transport refrigeration all these years...I guess they have some sort on inverter to convert dc to ac...so that would make sense

sokold
08-10-2013, 04:04 PM
.

I find one of these

10807

helps with problematic controllers.

Sort of a stress reliever :D


Rob

.

Turbo torches work well too :)

Rob White
08-10-2013, 04:12 PM
Turbo torches work well too :)

Thats taking it to a whole new level :D

Rob

.

monkey spanners
08-10-2013, 07:54 PM
I think years ago when the controllers first came out there wasn't room for a transformer in them but now they can put a solid state doodah in it thats much smaller.

1mikeefc1
08-10-2013, 07:59 PM
The dixell universal j and r come with 240 and 12v optional in the same unit so no need to carry loads, although I find them a bit over the top with the amount of parameter settings.

sokold
08-10-2013, 08:54 PM
doodah's have come a long way...it makes sense not have a separate transformer in the chain...one less thing to go overheat and go wrong ! Cheers for that

sokold
08-10-2013, 08:58 PM
The dixell universal j and r come with 240 and 12v optional in the same unit so no need to carry loads, although I find them a bit over the top with the amount of parameter settings.
yeah I like the simpler ones too, life is hard enough!

Andy AC
08-10-2013, 11:11 PM
There's two or three types of ntc probes that lae use, sometimes you can adjust the type of ntc, sometimes you can't, sometimes they are stupid enough to allow you to have two different types of ntc probes connected. Makes defrost termination interesting - seen a few scorched coldroom ceilings.
On some of the early polar fridges the supposed ptc probes that they have are not compatible with any eliwell, dixell etc. so you have to muck about changing the probes as well when the controller packs up.

sokold
09-10-2013, 06:54 PM
[QUOTE=Andy AC;286855]There's two or three types of ntc probes that lae use, sometimes you can adjust the type of ntc, sometimes you can't, sometimes they are stupid enough to allow you to have two different types of ntc probes connected. Makes defrost termination interesting - seen a few scorched coldroom ceilings.
On some of the early polar fridges the supposed ptc probes that they have are not compatible with any eliwell, dixell etc. so you have to muck about changing the probes as well when the controller packs up.

That makes sense, every controller/probe problem I've had has been when they're supplied loose, i.e. controller in a plastic zip bag with (usually ridiculously long) probes that look like they've been wound round someones hand. Buy them in a box with the probes and they always work. I guess the answer is to never get spares from manufacturers! I do believe it's mystery solved :)

Thanks to every one who replied, I really appreciate it

cheers Tim

WoodyP
25-10-2013, 04:12 PM
As already pointed out, if you change the probe type on an Eliwell controller between NTC and PTC you have to remember to power down and power up again to update the change.

Parameter H00 - 0 = PTC, 1 = NTC

Why both 12V & 230V ? Simple

In the early days of these controllers, transformers were too large to fit inside, so they were designed as 12V with external transformers. These days we have transformers small enough to fit inside and OEM manufacturers prefer 230V as it's one less component to wire

24V is rarely asked for apart from control panels

If you have a problem with carrying both 12V & 230V on your van, consider the Dixell Universal-R service replacement controller. It has connections for both 12V & 230V

pie man
30-03-2014, 08:23 PM
The dixell universal j and r come with 240 and 12v optional in the same unit so no need to carry loads, although I find them a bit over the top with the amount of parameter settings.

Yes Mike Dixell Universal R very handy spare to have in the van always have a couple spare just in case!

Ian_Eb
31-03-2014, 09:51 AM
I believe that if the controller is 24v powered then it becomes a whole load easier to get through the CE marking process as there is no mains present.