PDA

View Full Version : On-demand defrosting technology







Bill Talero
03-09-2013, 07:59 PM
I have been working with an aviation company that develops ice detection system for the aviation industry. They have developed the first ice detection system for commercial and consumer refrigeration products.

The Ice-Meister is an optical defrost controller for refrigeration systems.

Based on the principle that defrosting systems are most efficient when there is actual ice to defrost. Current systems rely on the old electro-mechanical timers or some software application.

The Ice-Meister will only activate the defrosting system when there is actual ice forming on the evaporator coils. Energy savings are as high as 30%.

I would welcome engineers to discuss the benefits of this type of system on here. .

The Viking
03-09-2013, 09:27 PM
LoL,

Nothing new under the sun I'm afraid.
Sorry to burst your bubble but optical defrost sensing systems were around back when I were doing the supermarket circus some 25 odd years ago now.

Generally, for there to be a true energy saving to be had there first need to be a waste of energy...
The best energy saving device for any refrigeration system is, and has always been, regular servicing by an experienced engineer.

Your claim of 30% savings, not only is questionable but it is completely unrealistic unless there is a problem with the system to start with.
With, at least, a compressor running to maintain the temperature and forming the ice on the evaporator in the first place and probably a couple of fans as well... No way any defrost will consume a third of the system's total energy usage.


;)

1mikeefc1
03-09-2013, 09:47 PM
How will it save 30%? Generally the freezer rooms I work on are on a defrost for 30mins every 6hours at most, this device will then only come into effect 2hrs a day at most, the refrigeration system will be working in and out of temperature range the other 22hours. Also why is it needed to detect ice on the coil, if the rooms at -21 and the coil is around -28 degrees Celsius it is going to have ice on it which is why the defrost will be set up on it.

mad fridgie
03-09-2013, 11:16 PM
Optical defrost on demand has been around for many years, but was a bit of failure, so one would hope with better modern technology it should be better.
Defrost "on demand" can "save", but 30%???????????? that is pushing it !!!!!!!!!!!!
If you did get a 30% saving solely based upon installing a defrost "on demand" system, then you have either cherry picked data, or the original system was so badly set up. 3-4% is more realistic and nothing wrong with that.
Maybe the only saving grace is maybe the system takes away human error when setting up a standard system.
I see many items that all save upto 30% without changing the carnot cycle or reducing the actual load, so if I add all these together, refrigeration will cost next to nothing to run.

Bill Talero
04-09-2013, 02:11 PM
Can we at least agree that activation of a defrost cycle when there is no ice build-up is a waste of energy? If we can, then why not keep an open mind?

The Ice*Meister™ Model 9734-REFR is completely self-contained. Robust, solid, no exposed electronics. Simple 4-wire interface. No moving parts. Monitors evaporator coils for opaque frost and clear ice. Initiates and terminates defrost cycles according to physical presence or absence of frost in real time. Saves energy 5 ways.
Rugged four-conductor cable exits at bottom of housing for connection to host refrigerator's +24 VDC power supply. Wires are conveniently stripped and tinned for universal use. Control output is a pair of normally-open, single-pole, single-throw relay contacts that control the defrost cycle. No external component other than a break-before-make contactor is needed to switch power back-and-forth between the refrigerator's compressor and defrost heater.

9734-REFR attaches directly to refrigerator evaporator tubes, and eliminates primitive defrost timers. Provides sensitive defrost control in real time for walk-in and reach-in refrigerators, HVAC installations, and all other types of self-defrosting chiller systems.

Unit monitors the optical silhouette of the upwind surface of the evaporator tube. When the evaporator tube is frost-free, 9734-REFR's output relay contacts remain open. Immediately as the tube begins to accumulate offending frost, 9734-REFR senses that frost, closes output relay contacts to initiate defrost, and illuminates the blue indicator LED. This signals the power contactor to switch the compressor OFF and the heater ON, initiating a defrost cycle.

Immediately as the defrost heater has melted the offending frost and the tube returns to no-ice, the defrost cycle terminates. The blue indicator LED extinguishes. No needless energy is consumed. No needless heat is introduced into the chiller box at any time. This saves energy.

Ice*Meister controls the refrigerator's defrost cycle in real time, sweeping back-and-forth across the frost-formation threshold, reducing defrost energy to an absolute minimum, reducing operating cost, and increasing earth's sustainability.

The amount of offending frost required to initiate and terminate a defrost cycle is established at installation time by setting the 9734-REFR's housing either higher or lower on the evaporator tube. 9734-REFR installs on any evaporator coil or refrigerator at the factory, or is retrofitted in the field as an aftermarket product. It eliminates all moving parts, reduces parts count, improves reliability, and pays for itself with saved energy.

9734-REFR reduces energy consumption in five ways:
(1) It eliminates defrost cycles when there is no frost to be defrosted.
(2) It initiates defrost cycles immediately as insulating frost appears on evaporator coils.
(3) It terminates defrost cycles immediately as insulating frost is removed.
(4) It minimizes defrost heat inside refrigerators, so the compressor works less.
(5) It maximizes operating efficiency, so the defrost heater works less.

There are other benefits like less maintenance cost and extended life of components.

Example of real life experience:

Installed Ice-Meister on Italian ice cream display an monitored for 30 days. Defrost cycle was activated an average of once every 36 hours versus every 6 hours.

We are excited by our technology and welcome your input.

chemi-cool
04-09-2013, 03:02 PM
Any chance of free sample?

The Viking
04-09-2013, 03:57 PM
But Bill,

We are keeping an open mind...
What we replied to was your original post and that post's statements about saving a third of the energy used for a refrigeration system and that this would be an original concept...

It is still not an original concept even if you, or your company, might have refined it. Further more, if you do want to make claims about energy saving you will have to back it up with data about energy consumption not data about number of defrost cycles.
In your example above, what was the total energy consumption for that system during the 30 days prior to your unit controlling the defrost cycle compared with the 30 days you refer to?

I, for one, is all for progress and new technologies. Sadly too many good salesmen are selling god's gift to humanity without the goods they are selling measuring up to the sales blurb...


:cool:

Bill Talero
04-09-2013, 04:12 PM
Currently we have a limited number of Ice-Meister 9734-REFR controllers for evaluation. These were all assembled manually and cost are significant until we go into mass production. We are a small company and do not have the capability to provide free samples. What we can offer, is to refund the cost of controller if you decide to incorporate into your line of products. Please send me a PM and I will send you a quote.

Thank you for your interest.

Bill Talero
04-09-2013, 04:46 PM
Thank you Viking,

Excellent points. Yes, we know that data is critical to our success. Unfortunately there is only so much I can say or show on this forum due to proprietary and confidential material. Rest assured that our product has garnered the attention of major OEM's. Yes, we are trying to sell a product, but it's not snake oil. What we are asking this community of engineers, is to consider whether on-demand defrost would be a viable alternative to current systems and to consider the Ice-Meister as the solution. We believe it is!!!

al
04-09-2013, 07:54 PM
So if we couple this with an Ecube we could run the fridge for free?

Give us some data Bill, as viking asks, it is a good idea and maybe you've refined it.

alec

Bill Talero
04-09-2013, 09:32 PM
We are currently working with 2 OEM's and a US energy company who have been collecting the data for us. As soon as I have something formal we will provide.

Why is it difficult to believe that 30% energy saving can be achieved over current systems? Maybe I am not explaining the concept correctly.

Our product tells you two things you never new before. When to spend energy and when to terminate. it's that simple. Current systems spend energy whether it's needed or not.

Ask yourself the following questions about the systems in the market today.

How do you know if frost is beginning to form?
If frost is present, how much and how thick is it?
After a defrost cycle, how do you know if all the frost was removed?
How does the system you are using compensate for environmental conditions?

let's say a typical home refrigerator has a 350 watt defrost heater that runs for 20 minutes every 8 hours.

(350 x 1 hr. per day x 365 days per yr.) /1000 = 127.75 kWh per year and if every kWh is 11 cents, then the energy usage would be about $14.00 per year. That's just the defrosting component of the refrigerator.

Now do the calculations for the same system with an Ice-Meister installed and only activating the defrosting component once every 36 hrs.

Yes, these are just examples but you can see the huge potential this could have on the environment.

calculation used was (Wattage Hours Used Per Day) 1000 = Daily Kilowatt-hour (kWh) consumption.

joe-ice
04-09-2013, 09:45 PM
While there is no doubt savings to be made with this type of technology i doubt if its as much as would be claimed .Most guys on here would be aware that overdefrosting can cause as much grief as a frozen coil (ie condensation on roofs and ice build up in freezers where it shouldnt be) so defrosts in most cases are already set to a minimum allowable range and termination. Still always interesting to see something new and see if it gets legs and goes.

mad fridgie
04-09-2013, 10:01 PM
Ok lets do some real numbers. (By the way most modern refrigeration controllers have defrost termination)
So we have low temp coldroom say 5Kw Duty COP2 so input power 2.5 Kw
Run time 18 hrs a day so power used 18 *2.5 = 45Kwhrs
The run time includes the time for energy produced by defrosting. (so far typical coolroom design)
So Defrost.in either case the amount of actual ice to be defrosted it does not change either 6 hours or 36 Hours.
So the energy difference is the heat required to heat the evap and the energy required to remove the energy of the evap.
So in this case the evap coil (not case and fans) would weigh about 12Kg, and would need to warm from -28C to 4C (termination temp), then the reverse.
12 * 1Kj/Kg?K * 32 = 384Kj or 0.1Kwhr,
So 0.1Kwhrs to defrost and 0.05Kwhr to return to temp (remember COP2) so cost of defrost 0.15kwhr per defrost.
So the new device saves 6 Defrosts, all good, so the saving over 1.5 days is 6*0.15 = 0.9Kwhrs
So the refrig plant over 1.5days would use 45 *1.5 = 67Kwhr. So on a purely theoretical level the saving can only be a couple of %, I did not include energy loss to the room during the coil defrost, so I would expect the lenght of defrost to be a lillte higher and thus the saving to be a little higher. Lets double the saving 3-4%.
A long way from 30%.

mad fridgie
04-09-2013, 10:40 PM
Even 20 years ago simple time defrost (no termination) clocks on domestic refrigeration, the clock may have been every 6 or 8Hrs for defrost, but the clock only "advanced" when the compressor was running.
So this being the case if a system needed to run and defrost every 8hrs, then I would suggest that in 36 hours the evap would be a block of ice no air flow and product deterioration (unless the dew point of the air was down a -30C).
The product concept is good "defrost on demand", but why spoil this with absolute BS marketing.

mad fridgie
04-09-2013, 10:42 PM
AS aside note, you not involved with a Canadian who used the log in name Pilko, who a number of years ago developed his own defrost on demand for AC systems.

The Viking
04-09-2013, 10:58 PM
Apples and pears Bill, apples and pears...

In your first post you claim an energy saving of thirty percent, for us as experienced engineers this is unattainable especially if you only are looking at the defrost cycle as this is never anyway near 30% of the energy consumption to start with.

Now reading the calculation in your last post we/I can see that you are talking about a 30% theoretical energy saving on the defrost cycle only, that is a completely different kettle of fish all together.

If we are generous and give a figure of 2% of the total energy consumption being "wasted" on defrost then the best case scenario for your "invention" is a total energy saving of ~0.7%. This I have no problem in believing but then on the other hand the same system serviced and optimised by an experienced engineer would likely reduce the energy consumption way more than 0.7%...

But thank you for validating my point about salesmen...

:cool:

mad fridgie
04-09-2013, 11:56 PM
If you if you truly believe in your product and the results you think you are going to get, then test your product correctly. (this does cost money)
On site testing at best is always flawed, as is is very difficult to get repeat ability, plus you the amount of on site measurements needs to massive. to ensure apples for apples comparisons. Changes in ambient conditions, both wet and dry bulbs, door openings length of door openings, product entering and leaving (type, weight and temp) the refrigerated area, lighting on and off.
The best way is use an environmental chamber, say 21C dry bulb 50%RH
You need 4 identical pieces of modern refrigeration, run for 5 days with a predetermined number of door openings (all doors open at the same time for the same time) 3 openings an hour would suffice.
This becomes your bench mark.
The 4 units should use the same amount of energy, but they will not. So pick either the highest and lowest cabinets or the middle 2, and place you product onto these 2.
repeat your 5 day test on all 4 cabinets again (this ensures a quality reference point)
Now each cabinet will have X amount of power, 2 should be close to the original 5 day test, and with your upgrade 2 should be lower. The how much determines a base saving. figures that as engineers would want to see.
Still using all cabinets, starting changing the rooms conditions, higher/lower dry bulbs, high/lower humidity, changes in door openings.

MikeHolm
05-09-2013, 02:21 AM
Bill is playing to a tough crowd. Pilko's system, although hand made, was doing very well when I saw it.

frank
05-09-2013, 07:25 PM
Unit monitors the optical silhouette of the upwind surface of the evaporator tube. When the evaporator tube is frost-free, 9734-REFR's output relay contacts remain open. Immediately as the tube begins to accumulate offending frost, 9734-REFR senses that frost, closes output relay contacts to initiate defrost, and illuminates the blue indicator LED. This signals the power contactor to switch the compressor OFF and the heater ON, initiating a defrost cycle.

Immediately as the defrost heater has melted the offending frost and the tube returns to no-ice, the defrost cycle terminates. The blue indicator LED extinguishes. No needless energy is consumed. No needless heat is introduced into the chiller box at any time. This saves energy.
On an evaporator working at sub zero temperatures, surely this defrost control will prevent the fridge system from doing it's job - cooling the product - as it will forever be in defrost mode?

RONB
05-09-2013, 08:04 PM
Slightly off thread but what happens if the def on demand system was applied to a full supermarket freezer system. Say you have forty cases and say suddenly you get thirty of them getting a demand defrost signal all around the same time(which could happen). How would you engineer your plant/ electrical services to cope with such a massive decrease in refrigeration then increase in current draw. The refrigeration demand on shedding the load is fairly easily done but you would have to design your electrical services to take the full defrost load of your systems all at once. I have never come across such a design in my experience and that is why we have a defrost schedule so as to balance the electrical load. Then you would have the pull down demand on your plant which would have to run at full demand to get the systems back to temp. Not very energy efficient then.

smpsmp45
06-09-2013, 05:27 AM
Can I get the name & address of your company?

We are keen to try out that on our cold store units & those are over 1000 in the field in India with high monsoon & casual workers, this is a major issue for all of our customers

Bill Talero
09-09-2013, 02:08 PM
Bill Talero
New Avionics Corporation
2501 East Commercial Blvd # 209
Ft Lauderdale FL 33308 USA
561-252-3191 Direct
954-776-1900 voice
954-568-2577 fax

Bill Talero
09-09-2013, 05:34 PM
Here is a video of our first prototype. This video is a few years old, but should give you an idea of how it works. We are working on a new video that will be much more detailed. We welcome questions about the technology or applications. Regardless of your opinion on amount of energy savings, we know two things with certainty. We know our product works and we know it saves considerable energy. It's your job as engineers of OEM to figure out how to incorporate into your product lines. Systems vary from oem to oem and from one line to another. it might not be feasible for every refrigeration application, but that's why you get paid the big $$$$.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZzDEqo8Fq8

Bill Talero
09-09-2013, 06:01 PM
Viking and Mad Fridgie

Don't kid yourself. After all, You probably have jobs thanks to the wonderful job your sales department does selling the items you engineer. Engineers like yourself designed the Ice-Meister and my job is to create awareness for the Ice-Meister. Those OEM's that find this product suitable for integration will most definitely have a competitive advantage. So a little more love for sales!

Bill Talero
09-09-2013, 06:13 PM
Thank you for your question RONB,

Q) what happens if the def on demand system was applied to a full supermarket freezer system.

A)
This would not be a normal installation configuration. Ice*Meister Model 9734-REFR defrost controllers are used individually, on individual local evaporator coils, with their associated local defrosters, either hot gas or electrical heaters.
If you want to use a single 9734 to control an array of evaporator coils in say a very large walk-in refrigerator, you would place the one control unit strategically near the entrance door, where frost is most likely to form from the moist outside air, or place it on any other evap coil, according to your plan.

Q) Say you have forty cases and say suddenly you get thirty of them getting a demand defrost signal all around the same time(which could happen).

A) Defrost heaters are designed to consume roughly the same amount of power as their associated compressors. This normalizes overall power consumption.

See attached Ice*Meister data log of 33 hours and compare the power consumption column # 9 during compressor-on cycles (typically 100W to 110W) to the single defrost cycle (112W). You can see the refrigerator is designed to consume roughly the same amount of power whether it's in the compressor cycle or the defrost cycle.

10729

One single defrost cycle over 33 hours (vs 30 min defrost every 8 hours) prevents unnecessary heater defrost heat from being pumped into the freezer. All defrost heat, whether from a timer or a 9734, must be removed from the refrigerator by its compressor. The more defrost heat you accumulate, the harder the compressor has to work to remove it. The less the compressor has to work to maintain a thermostatically-controlled temperature, the more efficient your system will operate.

Model 9734 controls the defrost system to sweep back and forth across the frost-formation threshold in real time.
In operation, 9734 may produce a defrost cycle of only a few seconds, every 5 minutes. It's very sensitive, and by eliminating the primitive defrost timer, it closes the defrost-control loop for the first time in 60 years.

Q) How would you engineer your plant/ electrical services to cope with such a massive decrease in refrigeration then increase in current draw. The refrigeration demand on shedding the load is fairly easily done but you would have to design your electrical services to take the full defrost load of your systems all at once. I have never come across such a design in my experience and that is why we have a defrost schedule so as to balance the electrical load. Then you would have the pull down demand on your plant which would have to run at full demand to get the systems back to temp. Not very energy efficient then.

A) It is unlikely that 40 refrigerator cases would all require defrosting simultaneously, but even so, there would still be no massive increase in current draw, as shown in column #9 above.

Segei
12-09-2013, 03:13 AM
Usually, opto sensors have issue with water condensation. How about yours?

Doug30293
12-09-2013, 04:27 PM
Why is it difficult to believe that 30% energy saving can be achieved over current systems?

It is difficult to believe because you still haven't substantiated your claim. Thus, it looks more like a demonstration of Juola's Postulate than a statement of fact.

Appealing to our environmental concerns does nothing to further the credibility of your claim.

And if for the sake of appeasement we were willing to conflate belief with fact, you still have to show that your device yields an acceptable return on investment.


** Juola's Postulate states that 47.6% of all publicly quoted statistics are made up on the spot. My own research indicates this number should be revised to 47.3%.

Bill Talero
16-09-2013, 04:34 PM
Yes, and 93.7% a of the 47.3% made up by statisticians.

Bill Talero
16-09-2013, 05:01 PM
The opto sensors and all the other electronics are potted solid as a brick into 2- part epoxy and are even submersible if you want.

Grizzly
16-09-2013, 06:34 PM
Bill May well have the next best thing since sliced bread!
However why are we allowing a product to be blatantly touted on the forum?

Sorry guys!
But is someone from Carrier , Trane Grasso etc etc started spouting for free on the forum.
Many would of complained by now.

This is a forum to help each other and not to peddle what ever particular equipment we are involved with.

Sorry but this post is beginning to piss me off!

Why are we allowing so much type space to it!
For free?
Grizzly

hookster
17-09-2013, 08:46 AM
I know there is some marketing going on here but it is interesting for me to read replies and justifications between product sales and field engineers.
We usually don't get an opportunity to analyse a system product prior to arriving on site. Finding what a consultant has specified is causing us a problem and now have to find a solution with the customer breathing hard down our necks. Then trying to understand how it works link the damn thing out and get out of Dodge!

I have to say that there must be a better way to control defrost and this product appears to be going in the right direction. Personally I don't think its smart enough but we don't have full operational data. But I can already see the application to put it into some plc software as an input and improving control strategy.
I know this raises system cost!

Then Bill's small company / idea gets bought by a large brand name company who brings this to market. Then we are in the same route as all refrigeration products over priced, super inflated and every attempt made to exclude field engineer from tampering.

Best of Luck Bill and if you can share a bit more operational data that would be great.

Bill Talero
18-09-2013, 08:18 PM
I know there is some marketing going on here but it is interesting for me to read replies and justifications between product sales and field engineers.
Thanks for your participation.

We usually don't get an opportunity to analyze a system product prior to arriving on site. Finding what a consultant has specified is causing us a problem and now have to find a solution with the customer breathing hard down our necks. Then trying to understand how it works link the damn thing out and get out of Dodge!
I feel your pain.

I have to say that there must be a better way to control defrost and this product appears to be going in the right direction.
Thanks again. Ice*Meister test programs are ongoing by OEM customers in California, Japan and Italy. Those customers agree with you. Here are some recent jpg pix of ongoing test programs.

Personally I don't think its smart enough but we don't have full operational data.
Smart and simple can be the same thing -- re: the light bulb, velcro, shoelaces.

But I can already see the application to put it into some plc software as an input and improving control strategy.
Till Ice*Meister, there has never been any improvement in defrost control since the 1950s when "no-frost" refrigerators were introduced to the scene.

I know this raises system cost!
It does, but early indications are that Ice*Meister easily saves its cost in energy savings by minimizing the amount of defrost HEAT injected into freezers. All the defrost HEAT injected to melt ice on evaporator coils must ultimately be removed by the compressor. This makes it work all the harder. Keeping the amount of frost on the coils to an absolute minimum can only decrease waste and increase efficiency.

1074410745107461074710748

Bill Talero
18-09-2013, 08:25 PM
Here are more.....
1074910750107511075210753

Bill Talero
18-09-2013, 08:26 PM
And more....
10754107551075610757

mad fridgie
18-09-2013, 09:01 PM
I also enjoy seeing new concept products introduced to this site. How ever this site is generally for engineers.
So I ask Bill in this case to show technical justification for the energy saving claims he has made.
I have given him a set of calculations, I maybe wrong, so please prove the savings. If you can not prove the savings, with a least a bit of engineering data, then it is just snake oil.

shanonmethod
07-11-2013, 10:37 AM
Defrosting is a new technology to get better results for while using it.Its a high energy saving technique and proves there power saving concepts.It can measure the high or low voltage level.

al
07-11-2013, 10:05 PM
Bill

The photos certainly help explain the "how" a bit better, are you ready for production and site testing at this stage?

al