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View Full Version : The Future of Refrigerants post HCFC







hookster
31-08-2013, 12:18 PM
We all know the history and the mad rush to comply with EU regulations only to find the economy and global following of us "European super powers" decisions is not quite as important as we like to imagine!

Global Carbon impact of greenhouse gas leakage is 2% but this has an indirect impact from increased energy usage raising the impact to 8%. Don't forget though that global transportation is amounting to over 25% of Global Carbon impact.

There is a line of thinking that if you built a better engineered system you could put what you wanted in it as the leakage rate would be insignificant.

So aside from the fact that R22 was banned for an ODP of 0.05 GWP of 1700 and replaced with refrigerants of 0 ODP and GWP's of 1300 - 1725. We now have a multitude of refrigerants and blends to meet current requirements.

The decision for the future will be to find refrigerants with low GWP. i.e. R32, R290, CO2, Ammonia etc.

Europe seems to be inclined towards CO2 and 1234yf
While "that little known country signing its name all over our products" has invested massively in R134a
We have seen how readily the powerhouses adopt our bureaucratic penmanship from Brussels and can expect more of the same.

But what is the future?
Do we consider a specific refrigerant for every application? or is their a easy mass product around the corner?

I would be interested in members views on what we consider to be the next "big thing" refrigerant

passandscore
31-08-2013, 03:12 PM
Related to industrial refrigeration, CO2 will be considered the choice of the future.

http://www.shecco.com/files/case_studies/6_case%20study_cimco.pdf

chemi-cool
31-08-2013, 06:00 PM
We have been trough this many times,
from my point of view, and all tons of pages i've been reading, talks to people from the industry from arround the world, there is not a shread of evidence that refrigerants are causing any global warming, world climate is a new thing, it is not a science but based on asumptions, personal conclusions and greed.
CO2 will not be the prefered refrigerant as it is free to separate from the air to everyone, big concerns will not make money but spend billions on pushing the governments down.
r-134a was invented in 1930 by the same person who invented r-12 just that 134 almost killed him. it was tested during the 60's by the american army and was classified as dangerous refrigerant,[something to do with the nerves system].
World climate is chnging rapidly and we can not predict a thing yet. it goes up and down and no one know the reason.
Refrigerants will come and go depends on how much income the make for manufacturers. is big big money and i believe that this is what counts.

As for me, still hope to see R-12,22,and 502 back in use.

One question though, Doe's anyone knows what happened to the hole in the oson layer?

The MG Pony
31-08-2013, 07:33 PM
it stopped growing but is holding steady as tons of R-12 and other chlroine containing compounds are being released, but signs of improvement have been noticed since r-12 was taken off mass market.

The r-12 was never the issue, it was the gross misuse of it.

Next big thing is people remove the cranium from the rectal cavity will be R-290 wonderfull specs and efficiency.

chemi-cool
31-08-2013, 07:41 PM
If it srunk then how come the world is getting warmer?


http://www.livescience.com/39250-global-warming-pacific-cooling.html

passandscore
31-08-2013, 11:38 PM
If it srunk then how come the world is getting warmer?


http://www.livescience.com/39250-global-warming-pacific-cooling.html
Perhaps we should do a heat load calculation? ;)

Start with the higher world population and add the rest of the variables!

MikeHolm
31-08-2013, 11:41 PM
The lack of ozone layer is only one reason for the warming of the earth. It is very complex modeling and there is even evidence that our jet aircraft are even slowing down the warming (google "global dimming").

Many people believe we have passed the tipping point where the warming trend will continue because we are not reducing our population or consumption and are not likely to do so.

hookster
01-09-2013, 07:03 AM
"Global dimming" makes interesting reading.
The fact that Pan evaporation data is showing that the rate of evaporation is decreasing makes the concept of global dimming sit nicely with my comprehension of thermal dynamics.

I guess as a global population we will eventually have to take stock and accept that every item has a monetary cost and an environmental cost and there is no such thing as cheap goods before the net costs of global production is no longer manageable.

Rob White
01-09-2013, 09:10 AM
.

Don't confuse "global Warming" with "Ozone depletion".

Ozone depletion has little to do with warming of the world,
but it has every thing to do with increased levels of Ultraviolet
radiation, which was a cause of raised levels of skin cancers
in southern areas of the world.

The trouble is the Ozone depleters are also high-ish Global Warmers.
The Ozone depleters were not removed because of global warming,
they were removed because of their Chlorine levels.

The history of refrigerants is a long one and has evolved for many
reasons. In the first instance they were totally natural and tended to
kill people.

Mr Midgley of Dupont invented R12 in the 20's and he also went onto
develop lead in petrol. Two of the most polluting pollutants and it took
industry years to get "Chlorine" and "Lead" out of the products.

Whether we think Climate change is a con or not, the world is changing.
Is it changing naturally? Course it is, the world has been around quite a
few years now and has changed over those years.

The question is are we humans adding to the change?

You would have to have a very narrow imagination if you think
seven or eight Billion people living off the resources of this planet
has no effect on the planet itself.

Any thing we do now will not affect us, it will effect our great, great
grandchildren. The main reason we are where we are now is because
of what our ancestors did during the industrial revolution.

You can't cut down a countries forests and burn them or use them to build
ships (so you can dominate other countries) without having a long term effect
on the environment.

So Climate change, Global warming, Ozone depletion, Pollution, Contamination
and Over population are all real and are really happening, but the truth is, it
has happened ever since the world was created and we are just along for the ride.

Regards

Rob

.

chemi-cool
01-09-2013, 03:35 PM
Agree with you Rob, but why blame the refrigerants? No one have proved ozon layer caused by refrigerants, in fact, according to scientists publications, in 1907 the hole was almost closed and then in 1988 it was widely open.

The only thing that realy worrying me is that there are much too many of us on this planet, I wonder how nature will resolve the problem.

r.bartlett
01-09-2013, 05:06 PM
Agree with you Rob, but why blame the refrigerants? No one have proved ozon layer caused by refrigerants, in fact, according to scientists publications, in 1907 the hole was almost closed and then in 1988 it was widely open.

The only thing that realy worrying me is that there are much too many of us on this planet, I wonder how nature will resolve the problem.When this all started to kick off I went to a conference to discuss the implications of the proposed cfc ban. From memory The stated 75% of cfc release was aerosols. 10% was insulation blowing, refrigeration was around 5% and the rest was electronics and others. the first two amounted to nearly 85% of total usage. the main culprit were designed for total loss -aerosols were made for expelling. Banning the use in the first two would 'save the planet' without little cost. Then the fridge regulations could have been tightened as they are attempting to do now. However if it had been done back then the refrigeration world was much smaller and enforced regulation would have been much easier as the trade was quite a closed shop back then (in the UK at least) However to balance this off it must be remembered equipment today is at least 50% more energy efficient most probably wouldn't be the case unless change had been forced on the industry...

hookster
01-09-2013, 05:52 PM
[QUOTE=equipment today is at least 50% more energy efficient most probably wouldn't be the case unless change had been forced on the industry...[/QUOTE]

I would agree that there has been some improvement in efficiency but theoretical carnot cycle has not been achieved and 50% is high. We do get a far more accurate statistical assessment of energy usage with the ESEER rating but true energy usage would require continuous real time data for accurate assessment.

Old equipment that has been well maintained would take some justification for replacement with new equipment due to the massive payback period.

I would be interested in all you gentleman views on the next refrigerant, I anticipate stricter enforcement for working on Hydrocarbon systems and CO2 with training and certification as they become more prevalent. (Unfortunately industry is reactive and we only change after accidents)

chemi-cool
01-09-2013, 08:05 PM
When this all started to kick off I went to a conference to discuss the implications of the proposed cfc ban. From memory The stated 75% of cfc release was aerosols. 10% was insulation blowing, refrigeration was around 5% and the rest was electronics and others. the first two amounted to nearly 85% of total usage. the main culprit were designed for total loss -aerosols were made for expelling. Banning the use in the first two would 'save the planet' without little cost. Then the fridge regulations could have been tightened as they are attempting to do now. However if it had been done back then the refrigeration world was much smaller and enforced regulation would have been much easier as the trade was quite a closed shop back then (in the UK at least) However to balance this off it must be remembered equipment today is at least 50% more energy efficient most probably wouldn't be the case unless change had been forced on the industry...

I have seen those numbers in the past Richard but still, they could have simply stop using refrigerants in aerosols and as blowing agent and clean electronic boards with soap and water instwed of R-11 but in a strange way, someone have chosen not to. At this point I think of greedness.

50% more efficient? I doubt that number, 10 to 20 is a lot.

monkey spanners
01-09-2013, 09:27 PM
No money in making the same old refrigerants for years, especially after the patent has run out....

r.bartlett
02-09-2013, 07:47 AM
I have seen those numbers in the past Richard but still, they could have simply stop using refrigerants in aerosols and as blowing agent and clean electronic boards with soap and water instwed of R-11 but in a strange way, someone have chosen not to. At this point I think of greedness.

50% more efficient? I doubt that number, 10 to 20 is a lot.

The gains are made are not just about changing refrigerant of course...


An independent Energy Services company produced a detailed energy analysis at one of the stores located in Bootle. An energy analyser was used to measure the energy consumption of three existing R22 cassette split systems over a two week period. The units were then replaced with three Toshiba R410A heat pump cassette split systems and the energy analyser was used to record the new energy consumption.
The data gathered revealed that the existing units were consuming an average of 14.93 kWh per day based on 12 hour operation. The replacement Toshiba units absorbed an average of 4.98 kWh per day over the same time period, giving a 66% energy saving.
http://toshiba-aircon.co.uk/assets/uploads/pdf/eoi/r22_high_street_case_study.pdf

The MG Pony
02-09-2013, 03:35 PM
Ozone hole = extra crispy within 10 minutes of being in sun due to higher UV (This exacerbates the issue of the ozone hole due to higher chlorine photosynthesis freeing it from the cfc's)

Amplified Climate change is due to the high GWP refrigerants and is another nasty side issue, global warming is a mistomider, it should be called amplified accelerated climate chance. It makes things more intense and violent, like hurricanes thunder storms blizzards stuff like that.

Segei
04-09-2013, 02:49 AM
The gains are made are not just about changing refrigerant of course...
I'm a bit doubt about 66% energy savings. Any energy savings can be calculated. When people try to sell something based on energy efficiency, they claim that trusted third party verified these savings. However, nobody show calculation that can be checked;)

Segei
04-09-2013, 02:54 AM
Related to industrial refrigeration, CO2 will be considered the choice of the future.

http://www.shecco.com/files/case_studies/6_case%20study_cimco.pdf
Why? At IIAR conferences couple papers showed that CO2 can be more efficient than ammonia at temperatures below -40F. Not so often we have these temperatures.

StarCat
04-09-2013, 02:57 PM
THe carbon " thing " is yet another example of politically motivated " fradulent science."
The move away from Chlorine was based on fradulent science.
The whole thing is a very large charade.
There are a number of things being rolled out and implemented that will be shown over short time to be useless, expensive, and unnesessarily complicated and or dangerous alternatives.
They are all deviations from common sense, with the political and dollar interests driving them.
So do tell why R404A is $125.00, and R-22 alternatives are $325.00 or more a drum? More than 2x the price for something that does not perform as well.....
Its the subversive corporations and banksters running everything, telling people what to believe and everyone falling into lockstep and doing just as they are told without any question.
At some point, all the nonsense is going to be brought to a fast end because its not based on the truth.

MikeHolm
05-09-2013, 02:25 AM
THe carbon " thing " is yet another example of politically motivated " fradulent science."
The move away from Chlorine was based on fradulent science.
The whole thing is a very large charade.
There are a number of things being rolled out and implemented that will be shown over short time to be useless, expensive, and unnesessarily complicated and or dangerous alternatives.
They are all deviations from common sense, with the political and dollar interests driving them.
So do tell why R404A is $125.00, and R-22 alternatives are $325.00 or more a drum? More than 2x the price for something that does not perform as well.....
Its the subversive corporations and banksters running everything, telling people what to believe and everyone falling into lockstep and doing just as they are told without any question.
At some point, all the nonsense is going to be brought to a fast end because its not based on the truth.

Grow up.......


http://science.time.com/2013/08/19/in-denial-about-the-climate-the-psychological-battle-over-global-warming/

The MG Pony
05-09-2013, 03:55 AM
THe carbon " thing " is yet another example of politically motivated " fradulent science."
The move away from Chlorine was based on fradulent science.
The whole thing is a very large charade.
There are a number of things being rolled out and implemented that will be shown over short time to be useless, expensive, and unnesessarily complicated and or dangerous alternatives.
They are all deviations from common sense, with the political and dollar interests driving them.
So do tell why R404A is $125.00, and R-22 alternatives are $325.00 or more a drum? More than 2x the price for something that does not perform as well.....
Its the subversive corporations and banksters running everything, telling people what to believe and everyone falling into lockstep and doing just as they are told without any question.
At some point, all the nonsense is going to be brought to a fast end because its not based on the truth.

Forget your med's?

MikeHolm
05-09-2013, 11:44 AM
Forget your med's?

I see we have the same thoughts regarding this above poster...

There is lots of talk as to why some people cannot look at a scientifically real threat and see it as such. Most climate deniers subconsciously cannot deal with the huge problems associated with climate change, or population (or some other big issue) and compartmentalize so that it does not take over their lives. It is just too big, so they go to the opposite extreme. We just have to let them rant and rave while loose their heads while saner heads carry on.

StarCat
05-09-2013, 02:53 PM
The so called " science " behind those 2 subjects are 2 of the biggest lies ever created and unleashed on a gullible human population. The real science is out there for people who have the guts and the tenacity to question authority and everything they have been sold on for what amounts to nefarious purposes.
The growing up is needed by persons who are not asking the tough questions and not looking at alternative views coming from genuinely brilliant persons in our time, but rather succumbing to the exact " program" that the elite want them to " believe." Periodic scaling and subquantum kinetics are 2 very simple examples of modern science that are moving away from dogma. The electric nature of the sun is another. The ozone and the very long view of what goes on with it is not understood by current science.

Rob White
05-09-2013, 05:31 PM
.

I'm a bit simple when it comes to this kind of thing
and I ask simple questions and respond to simple answers.

A simple question

Is the climate around our world changing?

If the answer is no, then happy days, lets all carry on as normal.

If the answer is yes, I then ask

Are we humans to blame?

If the answer is no, then happy days, lets all carry on as normal.

If the answer is yes, I then ask.

What can we do?

Simple I know but all the mainstream science I read and listen
to, says that the world is changing and we (humans) are contributing
to that change.

Now if you want to argue what % humans contribute to climate change,
that is an argument for better people than me.

Regards

Rob

.

The MG Pony
05-09-2013, 07:10 PM
I see we have the same thoughts regarding this above poster...

There is lots of talk as to why some people cannot look at a scientifically real threat and see it as such. Most climate deniers subconsciously cannot deal with the huge problems associated with climate change, or population (or some other big issue) and compartmentalize so that it does not take over their lives. It is just too big, so they go to the opposite extreme. We just have to let them rant and rave while loose their heads while saner heads carry on.

Indeed, me I live all off solar, mainly for independance as I grew up to be self sufficient, but as an added bonus it cuts down on my carbon production! I been designing a totaly closed loop system where all the exhuast from the hous is fed to a green hous, then all waste to a methane digester, the slurry from the digester to feed the green hous, it all begins and ends in the green hous!

The MG Pony
05-09-2013, 07:13 PM
The so called " science " behind those 2 subjects are 2 of the biggest lies ever created and unleashed on a gullible human population. The real science is out there for people who have the guts and the tenacity to question authority and everything they have been sold on for what amounts to nefarious purposes.
The growing up is needed by persons who are not asking the tough questions and not looking at alternative views coming from genuinely brilliant persons in our time, but rather succumbing to the exact " program" that the elite want them to " believe." Periodic scaling and subquantum kinetics are 2 very simple examples of modern science that are moving away from dogma. The electric nature of the sun is another. The ozone and the very long view of what goes on with it is not understood by current science.

Seriously, get help! you're showing signs of paranoid schizophrenia! or take your meds! you really do need them, it isn't the government trying to control your mind, the pills actually return control to you! so do take your meds!

MikeHolm
06-09-2013, 01:15 AM
The so called " science " behind those 2 subjects are 2 of the biggest lies ever created and unleashed on a gullible human population. The real science is out there for people who have the guts and the tenacity to question authority and everything they have been sold on for what amounts to nefarious purposes.
The growing up is needed by persons who are not asking the tough questions and not looking at alternative views coming from genuinely brilliant persons in our time, but rather succumbing to the exact " program" that the elite want them to " believe." Periodic scaling and subquantum kinetics are 2 very simple examples of modern science that are moving away from dogma. The electric nature of the sun is another. The ozone and the very long view of what goes on with it is not understood by current science.

Interesting.....when I started putting solar systems in (early-mid 80s) and having an interest in energy efficiency, "the Elite" as you call them, called climate change (global warming), total BS and they didn't listen to any of the environmentalists. It is only since the evidence is all around you and causing huge issues with the worst being yet to come, that the laws have STARTED to change.

But, you can live in your little bubble and believe what you want. The only people who push your point of view are the ones who sell the coal and oil.