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moideen
23-08-2013, 09:07 AM
Dears,
Please go to this link, and find the pdf of articmaster.

http://gleampower.com/pdf/AM%20Presentation-Intgeni.pdf
What they are saying that articmaster will improve the system efficiency. Before asking its logic and theory, do you have any experience with this equipment? Any answer/comment really would be appreciated.:cool:

mad fridgie
23-08-2013, 12:39 PM
Where does the vapour go?

moideen
23-08-2013, 03:08 PM
Where does the vapour go?
Yes,mad ,this company came to my office by offering 20% energy save if I install articmaster in air cooled chiller . After checking the catalogue asked this same question to them. But they don’t have apt answer. They told me it will make little flash gas. It is continuous process. So think it will make large quantity of flash gas. And they don’t have any engineering data of the subcooling difference after this equipment, the effect of velocity of turbulence flow of refrigerant.

Segei
23-08-2013, 04:49 PM
I'm sure that in the past we discussed this snake oil.
I found that there are 2 types of snake oil related to energy savings. Stupid and smart.
Stupid. Look at the wording that describe the product. These people are not refrigeration professionals.
"How it works" Look at step 6. "As the evaporator coil becomes colder, the compression ratio is reduced!!! Less energy is needed to run compressor" Every sentence in this step is wrong as well as the product.

moideen
23-08-2013, 07:41 PM
I'm sure that in the past we discussed this snake oil.
I found that there are 2 types of snake oil related to energy savings. Stupid and smart.
Stupid. Look at the wording that describe the product. These people are not refrigeration professionals.
"How it works" Look at step 6. "As the evaporator coil becomes colder, the compression ratio is reduced!!! Less energy is needed to run compressor" Every sentence in this step is wrong as well as the product.

Hi,segei-One more stupidity also in same paragrph
“The vortex in the Articmaster becomes shallow,
And will cavitate, or suck warm gas vapor from the
upper portion of the Articmaster vessel
 This will momentarily starve the evaporator, and
the warm gas will defrost the coil, keeping it from
freezing”

moideen
28-08-2013, 05:43 AM
The energy saving company replied my questions, please read it which I received.


As soon as Articmaster is introduced in the condenser circuit, the following happens,

1. The Delivery pressure is dropped due to the increase in condensing area. The condensing area is increased because of the pressure actin on top of the condenser and due to siphonetic action the liquid at the sub cooling will be pushed out of the condenser. The amount of liquid removed depend upon the delivery pressure which is dependent upon the load and the ambient conditions. Meaning, the pressure drop will be lower at lower/load ambient and higher at higher ambient/load conditions. Since the discharge pressure is dropped the compression ratio of the system is also reduced, but the reduction of compression ratio will be within the range not affecting the actual performance of the system.

2. As the delivery pressure is dropped, the current drawn by the compressor also dropped – saving of power.

3. Due to the increased condensing area the latent heat removal is more effective and the vapor is better condensed as better liquid than before.

4. The pressure drop also brings down the temperature of the liquid condensed since pressure is proportional to temperature.

5. Now this better condensed lower temperature liquid enters to Articmaster where the liquid is made to rotate in a whirlpool motion.

6. The whirlpool motion makes two things,

a. Due to the centripetal force the flash vapor is thrown to the side of the whirlpool, i,e it separates the vapor and liquid.

b. The whirlpool also creates a low pressure at the center.

7. Articmaster is equipped with a special pressure controlled expansion device which focuses the flash vapor and the flash vapor is condensed in to liquid. Also the low pressure created by the whirlpool expands the liquid compensating the sub cooling so removed from the condenser. The heat is dissipated through the walls of Articmaster.

8. Hence there is already a reduction in temperature of the liquid due to drop in delivery pressure and also there is a further drop in temperature of the liquid inside Articmaster.

9. The design of Articmaster is made in such a way that the pressure drop due to Articmaster does not go below the condensing pressure of the refrigerant.

10. The liquid temperature drops between a min of 4 - 6 Deg F due to the installation of Articmaster.

11. This makes the evaporator to become more cooler and absorbs the heat from the solution (Water/Brine) much faster making it to attain the set point quickly and thereby reducing the load on the compressor in a chiller or cuts off the compressor in a DX system.

12. As per ASHRAE, any drop in temperature of the refrigerant will increase the efficiency of the system by 3 - 4 % and hence Articmaster improves the cooling efficiency/capacity of the HVAC/ Chillers and since the load is the same before and After Articmaster, the increased cooling capacity is translated as energy savings.

13. Articmaster is a internationally patented equipment and hence the design data will not shared by the inventor and only working principle is shared.

Hope the above clarifies the queries

mad fridgie
28-08-2013, 06:20 AM
Look at number 7, the vapour has to be warmer than the ambient, to release its latent energy, to turn back to a liquid.
It is possible to break a vapour up into 2 energy streams "a vortex tube", so it could be possible that a high energy stream is produced, so being hot would releasing energy, so when combining the effect would be liquid sub cooling.
But it says there in no loss of pressure, so very little flash gas, so the above would be minimal.
Is it in fact just some extra surface area, doing a bit of sub cooling. (which does save energy)
The rest is lost in translation (theirs not mine) or is just BS.

Segei
29-08-2013, 03:01 AM
"Delivery pressure" There is pizza delivery. No delivery pressure in refrigeration. Discharge or condensing pressure.
"The condensing area is increased because of the pressure actin on top of the condenser" ??? Pressure only on the top. No pressure at the bottom:off topic:
"due to siphonetic action the liquid at the sub cooling will be pushed out of the condenser" ???
And so on...

moideen
29-08-2013, 04:03 AM
Look at number 7, the vapour has to be warmer than the ambient, to release its latent energy, to turn back to a liquid.
It is possible to break a vapour up into 2 energy streams "a vortex tube", so it could be possible that a high energy stream is produced, so being hot would releasing energy, so when combining the effect would be liquid sub cooling.
But it says there in no loss of pressure, so very little flash gas, so the above would be minimal.
Is it in fact just some extra surface area, doing a bit of sub cooling. (which does save energy)
The rest is lost in translation (theirs not mine) or is just BS.
While increasing the volume of condenser by using a shell after the condenser, but if there is not heat transfer medium it will not increase the condensing area and it will not reduce the condensing pressure. Is there is any law that the turbulence flow will not create pressure drop?
Mad, can you explain the energy stream inside the vortex tube?

moideen
29-08-2013, 04:13 AM
"Delivery pressure" There is pizza delivery. No delivery pressure in refrigeration. Discharge or condensing pressure.
"The condensing area is increased because of the pressure actin on top of the condenser" ??? Pressure only on the top. No pressure at the bottom:off topic:
"due to siphonetic action the liquid at the sub cooling will be pushed out of the condenser" ???
And so on...

















LOL Now,:D Delivery pressure" There is pizza delivery.pushed out the condenser,(may be boycotted);)

The Viking
29-08-2013, 04:29 AM
If we are nit picking...
My favourite section in that statement is found under 6.

Due to the centripetal force the flash vapor is thrown to the side of the whirlpool

Now even my 12 year old daughter knows that the greater the mass of the object, the more effect gravitational or centripetal/centrifugal forces will have on it. Either they found a refrigerant that is heavier in it's gas state than in it's liquid state (could probably win them a Nobel price if they did) or they haven't got a clue what they are talking about..:cool:

10682

mad fridgie
29-08-2013, 09:17 AM
While increasing the volume of condenser by using a shell after the condenser, but if there is not heat transfer medium it will not increase the condensing area and it will not reduce the condensing pressure. Is there is any law that the turbulence flow will not create pressure drop?
Mad, can you explain the energy stream inside the vortex tube?

I would like say I know what happens in a vortex tube, but I do not.
So I will give it ago with what I know, the air enters the tube at an angle, 2 vortex's are produced, on high energy "warm", less dense I guess, and one low energy "colder", a port can be taken from either the high energy stream or the low energy stream, so giving hot or cold air if needed.

So knowing that vortex tubes do work (but not know why), I did my best to work out if there was physical properties that could increase the vapour temp so that it would condense back to a liquid, whilst sub cooling the rest of the mass.

However, I forgot about the pizza, and of course it now makes perfect sense.

desA
29-08-2013, 10:35 AM
The vendors would need to prove their claims.

What I see in the presentation is a device to separate flash vapour from liquid refrigerant & ?possibly? allow a full liquid line feed to the TXV. Perhaps allowing more stability at TXV entrance - minimising potential TXV hunting.

Pressure drop added to liquid line & suction lines via the patented mixer elements could affect overall COP in a bad way.

Results of practical field trials - with before & after tests, would allow customers to assess whether the concept is technologically-based, or pure marketing hype of the snake-oil variety. The idea has certainly been around long-enough for the inventor to show proof of his claims - when asked.





SN :
1


PN :
US5727398


KD :
A


PB :
Mar 17, 1998


IN :
PHILLIPPE GARY E


AP :
PHILLIPPE GARY E


AN :
US 199600000686016 Jul 25, 1996


IP :
F25B0430000;B01F0050000


TI :
Refrigerant agitation apparatus


CA :



DC :



PR :
US19960686016 Jul 25, 1996


FP :













Refrigerant agitation apparatus
US 5727398 A

Abstract
A turbulent flow generating apparatus for use with a refrigerant containing heat exchange system that has a refrigerant carrying line includes at least one housing fitted into the refrigerant carrying line and within each housing a refrigerant agitating mechanism comprising and at least one bladed disk that induces refrigerant agitation as the refrigerant flows through the subject apparatus.

Download the patent from the following link: http://www.google.com/patents/US5727398

joe-ice
29-08-2013, 12:10 PM
Not commenting on this particular device never came across it but the problem with a lot of these energy saving devices is the salesmen selling them are very good at their jobs . The end users gets the dollar signs in their eyes on the great savings their going to supposedly make and cant see past that.Often their normal service providers are unaware devices are being put in until they are called out to rectify the problems they cause.Often the normal provider is paid to install the devices and couldnt care less if they work or not.

mad fridgie
29-08-2013, 12:38 PM
The vendors would need to prove their claims.

What I see in the presentation is a device to separate flash vapour from liquid refrigerant & ?possibly? allow a full liquid line feed to the TXV. Perhaps allowing more stability at TXV entrance - minimising potential TXV hunting.

Pressure drop added to liquid line & suction lines via the patented mixer elements could affect overall COP in a bad way.

Results of practical field trials - with before & after tests, would allow customers to assess whether the concept is technologically-based, or pure marketing hype of the snake-oil variety. The idea has certainly been around long-enough for the inventor to show proof of his claims - when asked.





Download the patent from the following link: http://www.google.com/patents/US5727398

Thanks des,

if you read it it makes sense, but what it is being used for is completely different to the BS written above.

In simple terms, it stops oil logging in the liquid lines and ensures mixed refrigerants stay mixed, both OK and valid.

desA
29-08-2013, 02:14 PM
Agreed.

Good points on the oil-mixing side & mixing of blended fluids.

Talking about mixed refrigerants... Wonder if the lighter refrigerant could perhaps separate out in the vapour space - altering refrigerant mixture properties, immediately after start-up?

moideen
15-09-2013, 08:16 AM
Finally a meeting was held with this company. But their technical representative cannot explain the logic with the help of supporting engineering data, and I asked some references before they installed these same items in Dubai. As per the reference, I called to that their consumers those already installed .what they replayed is “totally money waste”…………..I think they have left me and will have search another victim.

desA
16-09-2013, 09:59 AM
Interesting feedback, moideen.

Snake-oil it appears to be... :(

adarsh412
18-10-2013, 12:31 PM
Mr. Moideen,

Some organizations with whom I consult are contemplating on going in for an Articmaster. I've been doing some research on it. The kind of feedback that I got from most of the already existing installations has been positive. Considering the high power tariffs and warm ambient conditions here in India, the customers have corroborated the stated efficiency of about 20% for air cooled chillers as well as the 1.5 years ROI. I'm quite certain that's the case in the Emirates as well. In the case of water cooled chillers, the efficiency might be slightly lesser. It has also been implemented over a variety of systems (Carrier, Trane, York, Voltas, Blue Star etc. of varying capacities ranging from 5 TR to several 100s of TR). As for the refrigerants, there is an abundance of R22 and R134a being used in India and the Articmaster has been extremely successful with them.

I was going through the points that you put forth carefully and I couldn't really find a specific issue that you've encountered. Aside from a few details which in my opinion might be patent protected, the working seems pretty legit to me. Kindly let me know if you've come across any specific impediments that might either prove to be non-conducive to the proper functioning of the entire system or the Articmaster's inability to attain the stated efficiency levels or if there are any distinct conditions where the Articmaster doesn't work.

A clarification in this regard would be appreciated from other members who've posted in this thread, as well, if they have any.

moideen
19-10-2013, 09:04 AM
Mr. Moideen,

Some organizations with whom I consult are contemplating on going in for an Articmaster. I've been doing some research on it. The kind of feedback that I got from most of the already existing installations has been positive. Considering the high power tariffs and warm ambient conditions here in India, the customers have corroborated the stated efficiency of about 20% for air cooled chillers as well as the 1.5 years ROI. I'm quite certain that's the case in the Emirates as well. In the case of water cooled chillers, the efficiency might be slightly lesser. It has also been implemented over a variety of systems (Carrier, Trane, York, Voltas, Blue Star etc. of varying capacities ranging from 5 TR to several 100s of TR). As for the refrigerants, there is an abundance of R22 and R134a being used in India and the Articmaster has been extremely successful with them.

I was going through the points that you put forth carefully and I couldn't really find a specific issue that you've encountered. Aside from a few details which in my opinion might be patent protected, the working seems pretty legit to me. Kindly let me know if you've come across any specific impediments that might either prove to be non-conducive to the proper functioning of the entire system or the Articmaster's inability to attain the stated efficiency levels or if there are any distinct conditions where the Articmaster doesn't work.

A clarification in this regard would be appreciated from other members who've posted in this thread, as well, if they have any.
Dear adarsh, welcome to re. Can you clear some below stated?
1. Why the main chiller manufactures like carrier, York, trane are not ready to buy this equipment for their units to save big energy save20%
2. Why they are not trying to get certification from main manufactures?
3. 1.6 kw required per ton for air cooled chiller in gulf region, what will be the difference after fixing the artic master.
4. What will be the additional sub cooling after articmaser.
5. What will be the mass flow difference after articmaster.
6. Check no: 5-(downloaded document) the colder coil temperature increases. What you mean colder coil temperature. Do you mean the evaporator temperature?
7. Check no: 6- The vortex will suck flash gas to evaporator, then the flash gas will defrost the coil, I cannot understand this point. When flash gas and sub cooled liquid joined it will become saturated condition. Then how does it make increase the NRE
8. Why does the patent paper is silent about energy save, it has mentioned only the reduction of oil logging

adarsh412
27-10-2013, 08:06 AM
Mr. Moideen,

I regret the delay in replying, I was travelling. I’ve done my best to answer your questions. Please let me know if you have any more queries.

1. Why the main chiller manufactures like carrier, York, Trane are not ready to buy this equipment for their units to save big energy save 20%?

OEMs do not endorse 3rd party products unless they get their share by way of exclusivity etc. also, Articmaster being a retrofit product, the customer who pay the electricity bill are more interested in saving than the OEM.

Chiller manufacturers are definitely doing their due diligence and that is the reason why newer models tend to be more efficient. The Inverter ACs, VRV/VRF models are very efficient.

2. Why they are not trying to get certification from main manufactures?

Why would an OEM certify a product which would tantamount to calling their system in-efficient by 20%.

3. 1.6 kW required per ton for air cooled chiller in gulf region, what will be the difference after fixing the Articmaster?

Please clarify the type of compressor used, the refrigerant as well as any other key information. With an average annual efficiency of 20% (efficiency achieved during the summer is greater than that attained during the winter),

80% X 1.6kW = 1.28 kW per TR

4. What will be the additional sub cooling after Articmaster?

4 - 6 Deg F

5. What will be the mass flow difference after Articmaster?

The mass flow will come down by 5-10%

6. Check no: 5-(downloaded document) the colder coil temperature increases. What you mean colder coil temperature. Do you mean the evaporator temperature?

Yes, the evaporator temperature becomes colder.

7. Check no: 6- The vortex will suck flash gas to evaporator, then the flash gas will defrost the coil, I cannot understand this point. When flash gas and sub cooled liquid joined it will become saturated condition. Then how does it make increase the NRE?

When the ambient become too low, the amount of refrigerant held inside the Articmaster will be less making the whirlpool to become shallow. Due to this the flash vapor will get sucked to the evaporator, which will defrost the evaporator coil from freezing.

8. Why does the patent paper is silent about energy save, it has mentioned only the reduction of oil logging?

For your convenience, I have given the patent details which clearly state that the it is an efficiency enhancing system

10860

All this aside, I’m sure you’d agree with me when I say that rather than debating claims of the patent paper, name of the product etc. what’s of paramount importance is the actual practical performance of the product in the field. Articmaster seems to be working perfectly well. We are in the process of talking with people in Oman, Singapore, Sri Lanka as well as other places regarding the implementation of Articmaster.

Kindly let me know if you have anymore queries, we could also arrange to have a telephone conference if interested.

Segei
27-10-2013, 10:16 PM
Any energy savings can be calculated. Imagine (I'm doubt but just imagine) that your device can give additional subcooling 4-6 degF. How this subcooling does convert to 20% energy savings?

mad fridgie
29-10-2013, 05:38 AM
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Flash calculation Kw/Ton, why pick 80%, 50% sounds better. If you going to tell a story, "fiction" at least make it believable, or a bloody good fairy tail.

sub cooling, yes greater efficiency, lower suction and reduced mass flow, not so good, reduced capacity.

So far you have given no indication of how energy savings are made, only oil from a snake.

Why not give full tech data of before and after install. This is a refrigeration forum for refrigeration engineers so we can handle technical data, but we can not handle bull shyte.

moideen
30-10-2013, 06:48 AM
Mr. Moideen,

I regret the delay in replying, I was travelling. I’ve done my best to answer your questions. Please let me know if you have any more queries.

1. Why the main chiller manufactures like carrier, York, Trane are not ready to buy this equipment for their units to save big energy save 20%?

OEMs do not endorse 3rd party products unless they get their share by way of exclusivity etc. also, Articmaster being a retrofit product, the customer who pay the electricity bill are more interested in saving than the OEM.

Chiller manufacturers are definitely doing their due diligence and that is the reason why newer models tend to be more efficient. The Inverter ACs, VRV/VRF models are very efficient.

2. Why they are not trying to get certification from main manufactures?

Why would an OEM certify a product which would tantamount to calling their system in-efficient by 20%.

3. 1.6 kW required per ton for air cooled chiller in gulf region, what will be the difference after fixing the Articmaster?

Please clarify the type of compressor used, the refrigerant as well as any other key information. With an average annual efficiency of 20% (efficiency achieved during the summer is greater than that attained during the winter),

80% X 1.6kW = 1.28 kW per TR

4. What will be the additional sub cooling after Articmaster?

4 - 6 Deg F

5. What will be the mass flow difference after Articmaster?

The mass flow will come down by 5-10%

6. Check no: 5-(downloaded document) the colder coil temperature increases. What you mean colder coil temperature. Do you mean the evaporator temperature?

Yes, the evaporator temperature becomes colder.

7. Check no: 6- The vortex will suck flash gas to evaporator, then the flash gas will defrost the coil, I cannot understand this point. When flash gas and sub cooled liquid joined it will become saturated condition. Then how does it make increase the NRE?

When the ambient become too low, the amount of refrigerant held inside the Articmaster will be less making the whirlpool to become shallow. Due to this the flash vapor will get sucked to the evaporator, which will defrost the evaporator coil from freezing.

8. Why does the patent paper is silent about energy save, it has mentioned only the reduction of oil logging?

For your convenience, I have given the patent details which clearly state that the it is an efficiency enhancing system

10860

All this aside, I’m sure you’d agree with me when I say that rather than debating claims of the patent paper, name of the product etc. what’s of paramount importance is the actual practical performance of the product in the field. Articmaster seems to be working perfectly well. We are in the process of talking with people in Oman, Singapore, Sri Lanka as well as other places regarding the implementation of Articmaster.

Kindly let me know if you have anymore queries, we could also arrange to have a telephone conference if interested.

I don’t think your statement is correct. For example, carrier chillers are using other products for supporting their equipment, such as the compressor relief valve (henry) expansion valve (sporlan) etc. the same way they can use your equipment. Even Though your equipment is patented, I think your logic can use for any manufacture in different way. As you exampled the VRF system, Japan introduced and I think Mitsubishi has got the patent. But other manufactures are also using the same logic in the name of VRV. the performance reportwhich I received from your Dubai sales person, it mentioned the sub cooling difference from the previous condition is 0.7F, energy save is 42%. Frankly it is stupidity. How do you calculate the energy saves? Or blindly writing 20or 40%.” articmaster flash gas will defrost the evaporator” still I could not understand what you mean. What is role of “defrost” in your energy save drama? Your patent paper describe the oil logging, cannot see ant words about energy save with sub cooling, condensing temperature……etc.:cool:

Segei
01-11-2013, 01:53 AM
Read original patent. Was very surprised.
Author doesn't know basic thermodynamic and heat transfer. Idea of this invention to increase condenser surface by 20% by eliminating subcooling in the condenser. He doesn't explain benefit of articmaster,but it looks like to provide required subcooling(instead of condenser). I'm very doubt that this can happen.
Additional 20% of condenser surface will reduce condensing temperature from 110F to 90F and significant energy savings will be achieved. However, to achieve 20F reduction of the condensing temperature, initial temperature difference between condensing temperature and cooling air should be 120F. Condenser cooling air should have temperature of -10F. This is nonsense.

adarsh412
13-11-2013, 12:21 PM
@Segei.. guess the point has not been appreciated.
Not sure if there is a specific equation between the reduction in temperature post-sub-cooling with Articmaster and energy savings. What I have indicated is the actual values obtained in the installations running .. approx 4-6deg F reduced temperature at the output of AM, target area temperature achieved faster than before and the resultant lesser compressor run-time leading to savings of energy..

adarsh412
13-11-2013, 01:01 PM
@Moideen- cant say why some patents continue in the name of the original inventor while some gets cloned.. AM technology could not be bettered by anyone so far- suffice to say.
Cannot also say why the Dubai sales person gave you those numbers.. if you can mail me who and when.. we will run a check- As of now it is your word against no ones..
BTW there has been cases where AM has given 40%+ esp during summer- dont dismiss such things as 'stupidity'
On Energy savings.. there is no calculation as everything is dynamic in the field..what is being proposed is actual delivered savings measured using Energy meters over extended periods of time to cater to the varying load patterns. You mentioned about some Customer giving adverse feedback sometime back- please share the details which we will try taking up with the Company through some known people.

On the defrost part- this is essentially a by-product that helps during winter to avoid frosting.. am sure if this is done without having to switch off and on the system, it is for overall operational benefit.. this does not add directly to the energy savings.. but for better upkeep of the system.. You need to put all these in perspective.

In terms of oil-logging etc in the patent paper.. you are nit-picking I am afraid to say. I am not a defender/apologist for Mr Phillippe.. you can take it directly with him..

adarsh412
13-11-2013, 01:06 PM
Am sure the US Patents authority guys are as wise as Segei if not better to look through errors before granting patents.. What you have put up above also does not make any sense man!

Guess some of the experts in this forum may have to un-learn some things that they have learnt over time..

adarsh412
13-11-2013, 01:18 PM
@ Madfridgie

The data is not fiction.. actual observed ones. One can theorise ad nauseum on why and why not.. but proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Please refer the PH diagram and the attached table for data obtained before and after AM for a customer in India. We cannot share more details of the Customer on the forum.. you can mail me if you need specific input
Customer India_BFSI

Before AM After AM
SP 75 psi 75 psi
DP 280 psi 250 psi
Superheat 12*F 12*F
Subcooling 8*F 5*F

BTW- I am also an engineer and am with a team of engineers who have spent decades in this and more complex systems..would appreciate if the tech brains can focus better rather than nit-pick

Grizzly
13-11-2013, 05:57 PM
Ardarsh.
Do us all a favour and help us with your apparent vast experience when you can.
But please don't peddle your wares on the forum.
I for one will accept that, that I experience for myself and not what someone in India wants to promote.
That is not what the forum is for.
There are lots of good guys who deal in good equipment , they don't peddle their equipment.
So why should you?

Irrespective of your opinion, these type of products are no different.
And have no place here.


Grizzly

mad fridgie
13-11-2013, 07:03 PM
@ Madfridgie

The data is not fiction.. actual observed ones. One can theorise ad nauseum on why and why not.. but proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Please refer the PH diagram and the attached table for data obtained before and after AM for a customer in India. We cannot share more details of the Customer on the forum.. you can mail me if you need specific input
Customer India_BFSI

Before AM After AM
SP 75 psi 75 psi
DP 280 psi 250 psi
Superheat 12*F 12*F
Subcooling 8*F 5*F

BTW- I am also an engineer and am with a team of engineers who have spent decades in this and more complex systems..would appreciate if the tech brains can focus better rather than nit-pick

OK getting somewhere.

Yes dropping the condensing pressure will increase efficiency and duty. And by that much clearly indicates either a poorly set up original system, or your AC is unbelievably good. It maybe be, but if it is that good, then there has to be a theoretical reason for it and a reasonable method of prediction. Based upon the science of the process.

But I thought the AC improved evap performance.

A patent is not about performance it is about originality.

Your plotting on the PH diagram is wrong, compared to your numbers. Would not be to good for the compressor.

Segei
13-11-2013, 11:52 PM
Am sure the US Patents authority guys are as wise as Segei if not better to look through errors before granting patents.. What you have put up above also does not make any sense man!

Guess some of the experts in this forum may have to un-learn some things that they have learnt over time..
Free lesson of refrigeration basics. Basic heat transfer formula.
Q = U x A x TD U-heat transfer coefficient. A-heat transfer surface. TD- temperature difference. U doesn't change. Heat transfered before and after is equal. A1 x TD1 = A2 x TD2 If amount of heat doesn't change before and after. A2=1.2A1 20% increase of the surface will lead to TD2 = TD1 -20 20F reduction cond. temperature(110F-90F) A1 x TD1 = 1.2A1(TD1-20) Result of this equation shows that TD1=120F

adarsh412
14-11-2013, 04:58 AM
Grizzly,

Thanks for reminding me of what I should and should not do in this forum. Appreciate the same. Trust me my idea was also not that..
However while you insist on people not peddling their wares, you should also insist on people not trashing something without reason.. and also putting un-verifiable data to support those. Hope I am right on that.
Thanks anyways and hope everyone follows this for the overall benefit

rgds/adarsh

mad fridgie
14-11-2013, 07:28 AM
Grizzly,

Thanks for reminding me of what I should and should not do in this forum. Appreciate the same. Trust me my idea was also not that..
However while you insist on people not peddling their wares, you should also insist on people not trashing something without reason.. and also putting un-verifiable data to support those. Hope I am right on that.
Thanks anyways and hope everyone follows this for the overall benefit

rgds/adarsh

We trash because we do have reason, and we also have verifiable data and scientific principles to back what we say.
We have given you every opportunity to prove why your product works , your reply to date does not come close to meeting a peer review. (the members on this site, some of which are every highly skilled and respected worldwide).

So basically grizzly is saying put up or shut up!

siv@
14-11-2013, 08:12 AM
We appreciate and respect your views. To make it more simple, we are ready to conduct a joint pilot study with any/all of you either in India or Dubai to prove the savings and energy efficiency on any capacity of HVAC/chiller equipment. You can then verify/clarify all the points that we have claimed.

Our product has been audited by renowned energy audit firm TERI and Anna University Institute of Energy Studies (IES), Chennai, India.

The demonstration and installation on more than 500 sites is a further proof that the Articmaster delivers savings consistently.

Please confirm the place (in India or in Dubai) for trial installation. As the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

-Siva

mad fridgie
14-11-2013, 09:53 AM
We appreciate and respect your views. To make it more simple, we are ready to conduct a joint pilot study with any/all of you either in India or Dubai to prove the savings and energy efficiency on any capacity of HVAC/chiller equipment. You can then verify/clarify all the points that we have claimed.

Our product has been audited by renowned energy audit firm TERI and Anna University Institute of Energy Studies (IES), Chennai, India.

The demonstration and installation on more than 500 sites is a further proof that the Articmaster delivers savings consistently.

Please confirm the place (in India or in Dubai) for trial installation. As the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

-Siva

Before you eat a pudding you make sure that it is, first safe to eat!

So you have 500 sites, good. Some of which have been audited also good. So you must have in depth technical data, from either yourselves or the Auditing body. We are aware that some specific detail can not be given such as the client or location, however i have never known a client who has had such positive results (in a non productive process), not willing to share there information.

So please provide technical detail of a system before and after installation. and some technical reason why the improvement has occurred. Pretty simple.

proof is not telling me that it is so.

adarsh412
14-11-2013, 12:51 PM
@mad fridgie

OK what are the specific issues the peer review have thrown up. You are saying our facts have not come anywhere near acceptability.. please spell out the unacceptable part?
you mentioned that no one who uses this technology known to you have benefitted.. can you name a few with whom people like me can have a discussion. No one is saying that AM is the final frontier and that it will save energy to the tune of 20% everywhere in every system.. but 'trashing' something just like that is not called for..

the earlier responses from me.. and also some posts have touched upon the technology involved- of increasing condensing area, vortex flow, reduced pressures and so on. leading to around 20% average savings in energy consumption... these are facts being seen everyday by so many users.. across Middle-East. India and even parts of APAC as gather. someone has now even offered to do a pilot.. Why don't we move forward on the same?

You can shout loud and drown other voices.. but that does not mean that you are being true and convincing

adarsh412
14-11-2013, 12:58 PM
@ Segei,

I appreciate the free lesson, however with regard to the equation Q = h X A X ΔT, while you have taken the trouble to carefully explain in detail what each variable in the formula stands for, you have skipped out on the most important function, Q which is the “RATE” of Heat Transfer and not Heat Transfer per se.

You have equated this Q before and after the installation of Articmaster which is fallacious and have come up with some absurd conclusion. The “QUANTUM” of Heat Transfer remains the same, not the “RATE”at which the heat is transferred!

Assuming a given Target Area with a fixed load, the amount of heat to be transferred before and after the installation of AM doesn’t change albeit the rate at which this heat is transferred changes. It is faster after the installation as Q is directly proportional to A and ΔT. Hence, an increase in the values of A and ΔT will ensue in Q having a greater value. which leads to shorter cooling cycles, compressor run-times and lower energy consumption..

Now there is no fixed 20% savings across all situations- no standard 20% increase in condensing areas with AM across all models, no fixed 20 deg F ΔT etc etc that you can consider.. each case is different…

mad fridgie
14-11-2013, 06:24 PM
@mad fridgie

OK what are the specific issues the peer review have thrown up. You are saying our facts have not come anywhere near acceptability.. please spell out the unacceptable part?
you mentioned that no one who uses this technology known to you have benefitted.. can you name a few with whom people like me can have a discussion. No one is saying that AM is the final frontier and that it will save energy to the tune of 20% everywhere in every system.. but 'trashing' something just like that is not called for..

the earlier responses from me.. and also some posts have touched upon the technology involved- of increasing condensing area, vortex flow, reduced pressures and so on. leading to around 20% average savings in energy consumption... these are facts being seen everyday by so many users.. across Middle-East. India and even parts of APAC as gather. someone has now even offered to do a pilot.. Why don't we move forward on the same?

You can shout loud and drown other voices.. but that does not mean that you are being true and convincing

I have not said those things at all.

You are stating large increases in performance, and yet you do not show any scientific proof of why!

So it is you, who is not being truthful.

The truth is more likely to be that there are many systems that are very poorly set up and/or maintained.
The AM installation will have a precise set of installation and commissioning/service requirements. A large improvement may be seen. But if a system is already well commissioned and serviced. then improvements are not seen. The saving come from not the AM but correct system set up. The AM gives an independent opportunity to set up a system correctly.

So again I ask for specifics of a system before and after.

mad fridgie
14-11-2013, 07:00 PM
@ Segei,

I appreciate the free lesson, however with regard to the equation Q = h X A X ΔT, while you have taken the trouble to carefully explain in detail what each variable in the formula stands for, you have skipped out on the most important function, Q which is the “RATE” of Heat Transfer and not Heat Transfer per se.

You have equated this Q before and after the installation of Articmaster which is fallacious and have come up with some absurd conclusion. The “QUANTUM” of Heat Transfer remains the same, not the “RATE”at which the heat is transferred!

Assuming a given Target Area with a fixed load, the amount of heat to be transferred before and after the installation of AM doesn’t change albeit the rate at which this heat is transferred changes. It is faster after the installation as Q is directly proportional to A and ΔT. Hence, an increase in the values of A and ΔT will ensue in Q having a greater value. which leads to shorter cooling cycles, compressor run-times and lower energy consumption..

Now there is no fixed 20% savings across all situations- no standard 20% increase in condensing areas with AM across all models, no fixed 20 deg F ΔT etc etc that you can consider.. each case is different…

You have now brought up some good points.

Q, can be assumed either as for a heat exchanger or the net refrigeration effect, the second "refrigeration effect" must be a constant when comparing before and after. Q for the evap also remains a constant over time, but may vary second on second. The cond Q will variable as you state higher efficiency so lower electrical input to the compressor, thus a lower heat of rejection.
A, Surface area of the cond and/or evap must also be a constant (I accept that adding in a device and its pipework will add some additional surface area)
Flow rate, can be split into 2, so for this example a water cooled cond and water chilling evap. So flow rate of both water streams is a constant. And change is compression ration will change the flow of refrigerant.
U, heat transfer co-efficient, now becomes the variable, and using other information about the AM is where improvement come form. Such as keeping the oil from filming/logging the internal surfaces of the heat exchanger (as stated a good idea)

So accepting that you are making a change, you should be able to give specific details of before and after AM.
So for example what would the savings be for a typical AC system in warmer climates, and what would the new refrig temps be.
Water Cooled Cond
Water on 32C
SCT 40C
Chilled Water on 12C
Chilled Water off 7C
SST 3C

Segei
15-11-2013, 12:05 AM
@ Segei,

I appreciate the free lesson, however with regard to the equation Q = h X A X ΔT, while you have taken the trouble to carefully explain in detail what each variable in the formula stands for, you have skipped out on the most important function, Q which is the “RATE” of Heat Transfer and not Heat Transfer per se.

You have equated this Q before and after the installation of Articmaster which is fallacious and have come up with some absurd conclusion. The “QUANTUM” of Heat Transfer remains the same, not the “RATE”at which the heat is transferred!

Assuming a given Target Area with a fixed load, the amount of heat to be transferred before and after the installation of AM doesn’t change albeit the rate at which this heat is transferred changes. It is faster after the installation as Q is directly proportional to A and ΔT. Hence, an increase in the values of A and ΔT will ensue in Q having a greater value. which leads to shorter cooling cycles, compressor run-times and lower energy consumption..

Now there is no fixed 20% savings across all situations- no standard 20% increase in condensing areas with AM across all models, no fixed 20 deg F ΔT etc etc that you can consider.. each case is different…
I think that you try to talk about things that you don't understand.
1. Rate of heat transfer doesn't change. AM can help to drain liquid from the condenser and increase heat transfer surface by 20%. This action(at constant load) will lead to reduction of the condensing temperature. It means TD will be reduced and A X TD will not change. Can you give me example when A and TD will increase at the same time? Increasing TD means increasing condensing temperature and energy use. How TD increase can reduce energy use?:D
2. 20% and 20F from original patent. This can be achieved when temperature of cooling air is -10F.

mad fridgie
15-11-2013, 02:15 AM
I have re-read all the thread.
There is some miss leading information, and may well not be intentional.
i have also researched else where. (And plenty of sales guys who claim to be end users, which is not unusual)
Lets assume that a Muppet has set up the plant and is fixated by liquid line temperature "sub cooling" "I must have a certain amount" He continues to charge until he reaches this magic number. He is not concerned about saturated condensing pressure, because he may not know about the effects by changing pressures (and there are plenty like this). So AM is installed, with a set of clear commissioning instructions. The refrigerant is removed the item is installed, some refrigerant is added. The sub cooled temp become less important, so less refrigerant is required, leaving more surface area for condensing dropping the condensing pressure.
A skilled engineer would not rely on a single measurement to set up a system . So those who have good properly set up systems will see minimal improvement, those who already have a poor set up system may see an improvement. The AM gives the installer the opportunity to rectify the the set up.
To claim 20% improvement, i suggest that the systems are also badly maintained.

adarsh412
21-11-2013, 03:29 PM
@ Mad Fridgie

For certain installations in large organizations, the OEMs themselves, take up the installations as well as the AMCs for a few years at least. I'm sure in these cases they ensure a properly set up system and maintain the systems well. We've had a look at a few such installations and in these cases AM gives about 20% efficiency. As for the poorly maintained systems, yes, you are right as AM has been found to yield much higher efficiency values.

Regarding the other points that you brought up I'll check and get back to you.

mad fridgie
21-11-2013, 10:05 PM
@ Mad Fridgie

For certain installations in large organizations, the OEMs themselves, take up the installations as well as the AMCs for a few years at least. I'm sure in these cases they ensure a properly set up system and maintain the systems well. We've had a look at a few such installations and in these cases AM gives about 20% efficiency. As for the poorly maintained systems, yes, you are right as AM has been found to yield much higher efficiency values.

Regarding the other points that you brought up I'll check and get back to you.

I have attempted to be objective, you keep stating this 20% saving, so one has to presume that the 20% saving has been seen. However you have not provided any data to prove such savings.

Companies spend many millions (including myself), on trying to save a couple of %, why only a couple of %, because that is the nature of the refrigeration cycle. So for you to claim 20%+, on something that shows little or no theoretical benefit (Unless you can show this), then the savings has to come form other parts of the system set up, which many on here can achieve on poorly set up systems, without the need of AM or any other potential snake oil device.
If the AM achieved a genuine 20% saving solely because of the AM, then every manufacturer would fight to use the technology. That how big 20% is, in the refrigeration field.
So to get the industry on board.
YOU NEED TO SHOW
1; In depth practical testing. (before and after).
2; At least a fundamental theoretical reason for the saving.

Both should be after all the time AM has been on the market, readily available.