saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

[rjsinoz]

hello all,
My name is Ryan im from Australia Sydney. I have been in the trade 10 years.
I am in the process of trying to figure out if the fluid in a receiver tank,is in a saturated state.
I have read a lot of forums on the subject and would like to get your feedback on my theory.
based on my observations on a low temp rack in a supermarket.
best example to use for this theory.
R404a,
ambient on roof where condensor is 73.4F/23C
SCP set@190psi/Approx 84.2 F/29 C
minimal fluctuation at time of testing, 188psi to 192psi - correct fan cycling maintained by E2 controller
plant room temp where receiver is 68F/ 20C (in a underground car park)
liquid temp entering tank at, 77F/25C (6inches from inlet) (constant temp with small fluctuations approx 1/2 a kelvin)
liquid temp leaving 78F/ 25.5C (6inchs from outlet)
pressure drop across tank from inlet to outlet 1 psi AND
inlet to start of drier core shell 1.2 psi (approx 1 and 1/2 ft away from outlet of tank WITH VERTICAL RISE)
pressures taken with calibrated fieldpiece gauges and cross checked contact probes,(against other sensors) which are insulated from abmient air.
only one out of 4 compressor running fully loaded
horizontal receiver tank, liquid enters from top, leaves at bottom (capacity approx 300 liters)
subcooled 5K
receiver tank sglass locations- middle of the vessel
liquid level in tank sglass, half full, fluctuations between the bottom of sglass and half full (i can always see the liquid.)
top of tank is slightly hotter than bottom by 1/2 Kelvin

i think the state of the fluid is subcooled at the bottom (bulk liquid) and at the head or interface of liquid to vapour (also above this interface) its in a theoretical saturated vapour state with nonequilibrium conditions occurring.
Thus the rise and fall of the liquid in the tank is not only from TXV opening and closing due to loads but also from the rate at which evaporation and condensation occurs.

I think this state occurs NOT by the increase of energy into the subcooled liquid
(ie we add sensible heat to a subcooled liquid to become a liquid with no subcooling, then add latent to cause a phase change to begin to a saturated liquid then saturated vapour)
but by the simpler process of evaporation, of a fluid in a closed/dynamic system with constantly uneven molecular kinetic energy levels occuring at the top of the liquid.
mostly from the liquid entering the tank causing different waves or splash patterns and the minor fluctuation of pressures and temps.
I would love to hear what you all think as everyone i ask here in Australia just thinks im an idiot for looking in to it too much. (The funny thing is i work for the largest refrigeration company in Australia.)

[RANGER1]

All sounds good what you say as it is a mixture in receiver. So what's the question?

[rjsinoz]

basically what state is the vapour above the subcooled liquid.
sorry in most forums people say its superheated vapour at the top followed by saturated interface then subcooled liquid i am trying to get someone to give there arguments on the point of the superheated vapour level,

[rjsinoz]

Question would be-
Is this possible that a subcooled liquid @25C at a given pressure 190psi ( PT chart says 190psi=29C )
forms a vapour which has a temperature well below its corresponding PT chart reference

[stuartt]

http://icemeister.net/files/valves/Sporlan/Sporlan%20Cold%20Wars/February%2010%20Cold%20WAR.pdf

Also, check the March 2010 issue for the follow up. I have the pdf on my computer but is too large to upload on the forum, I can e-mail it if you can't find it online. Some great info there.

[rjsinoz]

did u read my post the temp AT the top of the tank was only 26C not 29C IT DID NOT EQUAL THE SATURATED TEMP OF THE PRESSURE, it should be 29C

i think these are the lines in the pdf you wanted me to read-

(It is simple: we will have 110°F at the liquid and vapor interface, but the refrigerant liquid immediately below the interface will be at 100°F. The 110°F saturation temperature will only be found at the interface, and with the vapor above the interface.

"Yes, we do need energy to create the 110°F interface, but it is already being supplied by the 273 psig pressure. Enthalpy,or the amount of energy in the refrigerant, is the sum of both internal energy and the work created by pressure multiplied by the refrigerant volume.)

this energy YOU TALK OF (above) is not creating a sensible heat reading of 3k at the top of the tank to be seen/recorded.
as you should agree to cause a phase change of a subcooled liquid you must first add sensible heat to the subcooled liquid (ie add thermal energy which causes a rise in temp on a digital probe due to the higher vibration or collision rate of molecules)
this temp reading must match the value on a PT chart for the given pressure, then you add latent heat measured in kj/kg to cause a phase change to occur. all of which wont happen if the bulk of the liquid is not at (for my example 29C).
as long as there is one drop of liquid in that saturated state the temp of the liquid and vapour will remain the same ie still be extactly what the PT chart says for the pressure.
so if that pdf was correct the temp recored at the top of the tank should be much higher than 26C
please note i did write the interface is in a theoretical saturated vapour state with nonequilibrium conditions occurring"

so i write again could evaporation have caused this CONDITION TO OCCUR please dont send me a pdf from sporlan.

[RANGER1]

Do you have a liquid seal between drain of condenser & inlet of liquid receiver?

[rjsinoz]

no the liquid falls through the vapour into the liquid when first entering the receiver

[rjsinoz]

but yes at the drain to the inlet i assume based on subcooling values it has a full column of liquid

[mad fridgie]

A very interesting topic
A couple of things to think about you are using a R4xxx refrigerant so what abiut glide
Also you are see a solid head of liquid in your reciever so stratified layers can allow for differences in liquid temp at the outlet the bottom and the surface area also consider the possibility of vapour super cooling
Also your temp measurements are likely to be the cooler if measured on the surface of the pipe influenced by location ambient
Many factors come into play with a free drain cond and how it enters the reciever

[RANGER1]

Hot goes to cold & higher pressure to lower pressure, so I see it possible that a mixture of (in this case) subcooled liquid, saturated gas & some superheated gas enters receiver due to pressure/temp differences. If you have a "p" or "u" trap in liquid drain it may be less prone to this because of the liquid seal. Inside the liquid receiver vapour may still be changing its state being cooled by sub cooled liquid, ambient etc. I think probably no answer will satisfy you but raising these questions is good, as it gets you thinking. So assuming you do get satisfied by someone, what will it prove at the end of the day? Will it assist you in troubleshooting/analysing systems as intrigued on what the deal is. Sorry I'm more on the practical side & best to think basic first then go from there.

[rjsinoz]

A very interesting topic
A couple of things to think about you are using a R4xxx refrigerant so what abiut glide
Also you are see a solid head of liquid in your reciever so stratified layers can allow for differences in liquid temp at the outlet the bottom and the surface area also consider the possibility of vapour super cooling
Also your temp measurements are likely to be the cooler if measured on the surface of the pipe influenced by location ambient
Many factors come into play with a free drain cond and how it enters the reciever

good points, approx glide 0.5 K at 29C, can you explain "supercooling of a vapour" i would have to do some research to be sure but i can only remember "supercooling of a liquid" is where liquid can exist below its freezing point.
also i had considered the fact that it might not be TRUE r404a anymore over the last 10 years of operation numerous leaks have happened some of which are bound to be in evap coils and condensor coils (saturated state) and the chemical composition could have been changed and as the system holds 300kg if the leak was say, 60kg in this coil then 80 in that coil ect ect could that not change the composition greatly.
r507 only needs 4% r134a in it, to change it from r507 to r404a
example
R507 AT 46 SCT 299 PSI
R404A AT 46 SCT 289psi ( bubble temp 45.8 dew temp 46.1)only 0.3 degress glide
SO ADDING 4% R134A CAUSES A 10 PSI DIFF AT THE SAME TEMP on a PT chart
AND AT THAT SCALE ON A PT CHART .....THIS IS 1.5 K

r125is also found in varying % rates in a lot of the r400 series so losing a large part of that % in r404a could also create some sort of new refrigerant which isnt subcooled at the tested pressures and temps, that idea is all little out there but its not impossible
also no one ever vacs out a system in a supermarket rack (not in oz anyways) so air could also be present within the composition

[rjsinoz]

Hot goes to cold & higher pressure to lower pressure, so I see it possible that a mixture of (in this case) subcooled liquid, saturated gas & some superheated gas enters receiver

i can record superheated vapour temps where were they?

[rjsinoz]

also the starting point for a staurated vapour temp

[rjsinoz]

sorry saturated liquid temp would be correct

[mad fridgie]

Supercooling of vapour think of a cloud
Also i suspect yoi are measuring the temp on the surface of the receiver which if like in nz will be a thick wall so the your temp will read cooler than the internal vapour temp which reduces the actual difference
You could have non condensesables sitting in the top of the receiver

[RANGER1]

Air or non condensables could be seen as sub cooling as the SCT is not the true value anymore. You state 25c in 25.5c out & 20c ambient in car park. Top of liquid receiver is lower that SCT. Assume no non condensables in system, then 25c liquid receiver gives heat to 20c ambient, sub cooled liquid will have some temp difference of gas in receiver so it would have a driving force to condense vapour in receiver. Subcooled liquid & gas entering receiver (gas being a mixture of saturated vapour at SCT & or cooler gas being cooled by subcooled liquid). Basically a big mixture in a mildly turbulent environment. Hot going to cold with a reasonably steady SCT/pressure. If system off then different values again.ou would also have more accurate reading on outside surface of receiver where the liquid is present, compared to vapour space. Also any fluctuations in condensing pressure would change everything with the small fluctuations in pressure when you take readings. At the end of the day what will we determine from the result of our theories?

[rjsinoz]

Subcooled liquid & gas entering receiver (gas being a mixture of saturated vapour at SCT & or cooler gas being cooled by subcooled liquid).

PLEASE EXPLIAN - & or cooler gas being cooled by subcooled liquid
(once the vapour/gas is cooled below SCT it is a liquid.)

please explain where this mix of a subcooled liquid and gas (gas being a mixture of saturated vapour at SCT) is being created.
especially if i have a column of subcooled liquid leaving a condensor. and ambient conditions are lower than the liquids temp.
id agree if the condensor produced a saturated liquid leaving it,(there would still be vapour in the fluid) but clearly it isnt, and you have neglected to factor in 2 other phase changes have occured to produce a subcoled liquid at 4k
subcooled liquid/saturated liquid/complete saturated fluid(equilibrium exists)/saturated vapour/superheated vapour

knowing this, to say we have a "saturated vapour at SCT" in any part of a subcooled liquid, is in fact highly unlikely. near impossible, as the liquid simply would not be subcooled how could it be, if latent heat energy still exists in any part of the fluid.
its not like certain molecules of the vapour at a given pressure and temp, choose to condense become a saturated liquid then subcool while others choose to stay in a saturated vapour state the whole time. it happens to the bulk of the fluid at a given pressure and temp.

for the record i do think gaseous bubbles are present in subcooled liquids but thats a whole other discussion

you also wrote....
Also any fluctuations in condensing pressure would change everything with the small fluctuations in pressure when you take readings.

only if i had a saturated liquid entering the tank or a 0.5k subcooled liquid
,ie as the pressure increased the liquid would lean more towards a subcooled state(still be same temp though) and as it decreased the liquid would lean more towards a saturated liquid/vapour state (when this option occurs this would change the temp to its new corresponding pressure/temp realtionship)
ANYWAYS i had 4k subcooling

as for what i want to learn.......
i want to learn if my thoughts, which are, that a subcooled liquid is simply evaporating into a gaseous phase in a receiver tank AND THE GAS IS NOT SATURATED with the evaporating substance is correct.

once again i wrote its in a theoretical saturated vapour state with nonequilibrium conditions, by which i mean i dont know what else to call it.....

Thats all. pretty simply really, just because no one has come up with this answer before doesnt mean it anit true

[The MG Pony]

dynamic system it is a crap shoot as it is dynamic, you can have bubbles of super heated gas in with the sub cooled liquid as it rushes through the condenser, this is why we can see bubbles in a sight glass yet the system is perfectly charged, in essence we can think of a sight glass as a micro receiver.

in a vertical sight glass we have liquid on the bottom some slight gas at the top when running (this is for sake of argument we may or may not have a small amount of vapour pending on the velocity of fluid, sub cooling and so fourth)

when the gas liquid mix hits the higher volume of the sight glass it drops in velocity yet pressure remain stable, at this point gravity comes into play, the bubbles rise to the surface and join the gas cloud where it will stratify based on weight and temp, as will the working fluid to a lesser extent.

Turbulence will mix our fluid and gas phases to a certain extent, so what we see is an average of our sub-cooled working fluid.

So in the end so long as the txv's are getting a solid column of sub-cooled liquid we are all good, trying to map out the exact thing happening just over complicates things albeit interesting.

[rjsinoz]

Oh old MG how I have grown to love our little chats don't worry I will respond tooniht I've gotta go fix some household fridges today if I get stuck can I send you a quick e-mail

[The MG Pony]

cute, very cute, how ever this topic has given me motivation to build an acrylic receiver with embedded k-type thermal junctions every inch and make a small system to actually run it, aut to yield interesting results providing I can scare up the required materials.

[rjsinoz]

Good idea here's an email I sent to myself so I
could find there number quicly
notice the date
From: "Ryan Sharp" Date: Jul 11, 2013 9:17 PM Subject: To: "Ryan Sharp" <
ACRYLIC Material Safety data sheet Hazards Identification
I also plan on making a whole system oout of acrylic tube and all
fYI go onto ebay and u can buy special adhievse tape which can hold 700psi its from uk ebay

[Doug30293]

dynamic system it is a crap shoot as it is dynamic........

There's your answer. The PT (and PH) charts represent states of equilibrium. You might approach stasis in a pipe, but this is a 300 liter tank at 50% capacity with phase change and different modes of heat transfer in the top and bottom halves of the receiver.

[Rob White]

.

Subcooling crops up about twice a year and each debate,
interestingly covers the same information and I enjoy reading
debates.

This was my response the last time and I still stand by it now.

Liquid that is subcooled is not in contact with the vapour.

The trouble with subcooling is it is not as straight forward as that,
even at degree level there is debate about how subcooled liquid flows
through a system.

I can explain it in layman's terms and it works for me, ask me to go deeper
though and my brain freezes up because it does not work on pure science.

So my understanding of liquid is.

Subcoold liquid can be in contact with vapour if it is flowing.
The second it becomes stationary it is saturated and the reason
is because the flowing liquid has temperature levels in it. As liquid
flows through a pipe it flows in thermoclimes? (thermocline?), basically
it flows at different temps through the pipe and therefore it can still be
classified as subcooled because the liquid is below the saturation temp.

It is a lot more complicated than that but that works for me.

Regards

Rob

[rjsinoz]

im uploading to youtube tonight big pony ill post a link for u tomorrow night,

its a video of real life running conditions i think u will like it......

[rjsinoz]

please watch me.............http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqWgasIzh40

So can you "big pony" please explain to me how the sub cooled liquid still has any superheated vapour present?

now I realise you said (this is for sake of argument we may or may not have a small amount of vapour pending on the velocity of fluid, sub cooling and so forth)

so when you apply that logic to this situation (i.e. liquid line was sized for all 4 donks running at design conditions) and then I dramatically reduce the velocity by only allowing 1 donk to run and we see the whole sglass full of voids in the liquid but achieve lower liquid temps do u still think its superheated vapour in that fluid.

Or could it just be gaseous bubbles forming to fill the void fraction created by the slow moving liquid. In a pipe which is too large.
in my mind it is clearly not superheated nor saturated as that large amount of vapour would have surely caused a temp increase if it were saturated would it not.
And how do we create vapour from a sub cool liquid we must add energy then we creates a saturated liquid then saturated vapour u no how the story goes..... And that’s in a static system or dynamic.
the only other way I know how to cause vapour to occur without adding energy which can be recorded at some point is to.... what’s that word again "evaporate" the surface of the liquid.

[mad fridgie]

Look at your own vid.
The answer you look for is in the detail.
Pressure, temps, mass flow, change and time.

[rjsinoz]

Look at your own vid.
The answer you look for is in the detail.
Pressure, temps, mass flow, change and time.

cant figure it out u tell me what state is the vapour in

[mad fridgie]

saturated vapour

[rjsinoz]

only a kiwi would come up with that.... you must be a mad man....mad fridgie

a saturated vapour which exists below its saturation temp for that given pressure, IN A SUBCOOLED LIQUID and is being created by a changing flow rate. PLEASE..... oh yeah and instanly changes back to a subcooled liquid when the fluid is pumped quicker.... STOP IT....

you should make your own PT chart up and just write nonsense on it.

WHAT DOES EVERY PT CHART DISPLAY (FOR SINGLE COMPOUND REFRIGERANT) A SATURATED VAPOUR AT A PRESSURE AND TEMP.

even though its a dynamic system bitzer/copeland any other compressor manufacturer any evap or cond manufacturer all know its a dynamic system and all provide constant pt charts for how the fluid acts inside those coils regardless of it being sattic or dynamic

IF ANY THING you might say saturated liquid as the viods/vapour in the liquid are not affecting the fluids temp, IE IT AINT SATURATED FLUID YET and doesnt have a realtionship with a pressure and temp...
but even this is wrong.....

no one knows do they???????????
where are you big pony........................ i need an intelligent answer.............


you may all think im a **** but if someone could explain it or could clearly prove im wrong im sure someone would be putting me in my place.....

Don't abuse other members... edited by Frank

[mad fridgie]

only a kiwi would come up with that.... you must be a mad man....mad fridgie

a saturated vapour which exists below its saturation temp for that given pressure, IN A SUBCOOLED LIQUID and is being created by a changing flow rate. PLEASE..... oh yeah and instanly changes back to a subcooled liquid when the fluid is pumped quicker.... STOP IT....

you should make your own PT chart up and just write nonsense on it.

WHAT DOES EVERY PT CHART DISPLAY (FOR SINGLE COMPOUND REFRIGERANT) A SATURATED VAPOUR AT A PRESSURE AND TEMP.

even though its a dynamic system bitzer/copeland any other compressor manufacturer any evap or cond manufacturer all know its a dynamic system and all provide constant pt charts for how the fluid acts inside those coils regardless of it being sattic or dynamic

IF ANY THING you might say saturated liquid as the viods/vapour in the liquid are not affecting the fluids temp, IE IT AINT SATURATED FLUID YET and doesnt have a realtionship with a pressure and temp...
but even this is wrong.....

no one knows do they???????????
where are you big pony........................ i need an intelligent answer.............


you may all think im a **** but if someone could explain it or could clearly prove im wrong im sure someone would be putting me in my place.....

.......

what temp is your liquid line, what influences this temp.
This is not the same temp as what is within the pipe.

Your drop 3 comps off, a pressure change occurs, due to reduced mass flow, lowering pressure. As seen in your vid

The causing flashing, the flasher gas has a lower cp, than the liquid. The ambient then has a further influence on the pipe surface temp and thus the probe. Hence a lower pipe surface temp. As seen in your vid.

Plus you do not know the pressure at the point at which you are measuring the temp. In your vid, the liquid flow is which way and then what does that give us.


Get your head out of your bottom, then you might see what is happening

[rjsinoz]

10580105817[/ATTACH]1057810579

you were saying

[rjsinoz]

10582

easy view

get my head out of where......

[rjsinoz]

hey i found my answer read this and thank

Fundamentals_of_Fluid_Mechanics_Second_edition_ by GS Sawhney 10583

[mad fridgie]

hey i found my answer read this and thank

Fundamentals_of_Fluid_Mechanics_Second_edition_ by GS Sawhney 10583

That is not your answer,

you can get localized low pressure areas, which do cause bubbles which need time to collapse, But that is not what you are seeing.

Your pics are steady steady state your vid was not, which showed pressure change "change being the magic word"

Even though you show some insight into testing your testing methods are highly flawed for precise measurements along with your instrumentation.

[The MG Pony]

when you drop capacity the system will need to rebalance to the new level, it well could be super heated vapour that had been carried along to the point the capacity is droped, then it can flash feeding off the energy stored in the super heated bubbles to level off to a net 0 tempriture gain or loss.

Now here we need to factor in laminar flow as well, the pipe will have closer to ambient fluid along the inside surface as the sub cooled liquid rushes by it with fairly low levels of interaction if no turbulance is disrupting this boundry layer (This is why an olval pipe condencer can out perform a conventional surpentine one of 3 times the size!)

So on the reduced capacity it will consume any internal heat to flash off resulting in a net 0 tempriture change, these where the bubbles you saw, the reason is the condensor has less heat it needs to reject dropping head pressure by a bit. the reason the guages didn't see this is 1 digital guages are slow, 2 laminal flow and a boundry layer acts as a buffer between the fluid streams distorting the real world temp of the fluid refrigerent. so you are correct, there may been no superheated bubbles in this case rather the system simply rebalancing its self. sadly the guages are useles to me as even though I'm in Canada we still learn in imperial!

to see the fluid temp accuretly you need a tool from ritchie that you can put the therm in physical contact with the fluid stream. this will cuas turbulance and break up boundry layers as well as measur the core of the fluid stream yeilding a truer messure of the temp.

now I think I just confused my self, what is the question being posed here again?

[The MG Pony]

hey i found my answer read this and thank

Fundamentals_of_Fluid_Mechanics_Second_edition_ by GS Sawhney 10583

these all do come into play as well, the sight glass creats turbulance in the fluid flow and cuase shearing currents to form wich disrupts the flow in the core of the pipe. if you look it seems the bubbles start just below the sight glass if not further down.

[The MG Pony]

only a kiwi would come up with that.... you must be a mad man....mad fridgie

a saturated vapour which exists below its saturation temp for that given pressure, IN A SUBCOOLED LIQUID and is being created by a changing flow rate. PLEASE..... oh yeah and instanly changes back to a subcooled liquid when the fluid is pumped quicker.... STOP IT....

you should make your own PT chart up and just write nonsense on it.

WHAT DOES EVERY PT CHART DISPLAY (FOR SINGLE COMPOUND REFRIGERANT) A SATURATED VAPOUR AT A PRESSURE AND TEMP.

even though its a dynamic system bitzer/copeland any other compressor manufacturer any evap or cond manufacturer all know its a dynamic system and all provide constant pt charts for how the fluid acts inside those coils regardless of it being sattic or dynamic

IF ANY THING you might say saturated liquid as the viods/vapour in the liquid are not affecting the fluids temp, IE IT AINT SATURATED FLUID YET and doesnt have a realtionship with a pressure and temp...
but even this is wrong.....

no one knows do they???????????
where are you big pony........................ i need an intelligent answer.............


you may all think im a **** but if someone could explain it or could clearly prove im wrong im sure someone would be putting me in my place.....

.....


A pt chart is only good for one snap shot of the system at that exact moment, any where ells it is meaningles! don't over read into what the pt chart is. when you factor in the fact turbulance in the fluid stream can create up to hundreds of pressur zones all differing up to and over a 1psi!

[The MG Pony]

No one can "prove" you wrong, only you can do that, all we can do is share our understanding, then you must either decide to agree or disagree then incorperate it into your mental modle of the system.

[Doug30293]

A pt chart is only good for one snap shot of the system at that exact moment, any where ells it is meaningles! don't over read into what the pt chart is. when you factor in the fact turbulance in the fluid stream can create up to hundreds of pressur zones all differing up to and over a 1psi!

PT charts are developed by taking data points under static conditions in a lab. The data points are then fed into a computer curve fitting algorithm from which intermediate data points can be interpolated. Again, you are right, they are meaningless in anything other than static conditions.

The study of thermodynamics involves years of learning basic rules, followed by more years of learning that the rules don't apply to the real world. Most of us never reach the second stage.

[rjsinoz]

That is not your answer,

you can get localized low pressure areas, which do cause bubbles which need time to collapse, But that is not what you are seeing.

Your pics are steady steady state your vid was not, which showed pressure change "change being the magic word"

Even though you show some insight into testing your testing methods are highly flawed for precise measurements along with your instrumentation.



we all got sidetracked with my sglass vid anyways as i said in the vid that was for you big pony.
10590

[rjsinoz]

PT charts are developed by taking data points under static conditions in a lab. The data points are then fed into a computer curve fitting algorithm from which intermediate data points can be interpolated. Again, you are right, they are meaningless in anything other than static conditions.

The study of thermodynamics involves years of learning basic rules, followed by more years of learning that the rules don't apply to the real world. Most of us never reach the second stage.

OK SOUNDS ABOUT RIGHT, LETS ALL CHUCK OUR PT CHARTS OUT THEN, THERE POINTLESS AS YOU ARE ALL TRYING TO SAY. ONLY GOOD FOR STATIC LAWS, JUST REFRIGERANT IN A BOTTLE.

let me ask you all this how does everyone of you set a txv, thats right you all, pull your useless PT charts out dont you?????????

or do you all just wind her in and out till things get cold, anyone....
in fact wats the point of gauges while we are at it,what do we need them for the pressures we read are point less figures as the don’t really give us any true understanding of what the system is doing.
How could they when the gas laws /refrence points we know are all just data points under static conditions in a lab.
Its also good to know…. Then a computer (which was designed by a human who clearly had no understanding of the gas laws himself) calculates a curve fitting algorithm from which intermediate data points can be interpolated. BET that’s accurate then…..

By the way has anyone of you actually stuck a probe in to the middle of an evap coil and turn the fans off…. Your temp is always very very close to the corresponding saturated temp/ pressure of the fluid within 0.1 to 0.5 K
And what do you know a coil has turbulence from bends, conduction heat transfer from fins convection heat transfer from the fluid running along side the pipe, flow rates changing, all of which prove im the idiot for relying on a pt chart.
THEY ARE NOT USELESS AND IF U THINK THEY ARE GET RID OF YOUR PT CHART AND JUST GUESS THINGS,
YOUR QUOTE…..
The study of thermodynamics involves years of learning basic rules, followed by more years of learning that the rules don't apply to the real world. Most of us never reach the second stage.
PICK UP YOUR TOOLS investigate theory and cross refrence that to the real world
As in one simply paragraph (about testing what temp the inside if an evap coil is with no fans, compared to your pressure/temp) ( which most of you will try tomorrow assuming your not office workers/engineers ) all your garabe about pt charts are pointless and how flow rates cause the subcooled liquid to contain saturated vapour or what ever has been said just sound stupid.

[rjsinoz]

No one can "prove" you wrong, only you can do that, all we can do is share our understanding, then you must either decide to agree or disagree then incorperate it into your mental modle of the system.

are you an engineer if no, what types of systems have you performed breakdown work on,

not quotes from a office not the occasional stop in at site but breakdown work, you no at 2am with no wiring diagram no idea of what the last 5 idiots from the last 5 companys have done, you hopefully know what i mean, work in a scummy plant room or at the bottom of a pub/club or ****ty little butcher shop or supermarket, or anywhere you would find your normaly wrong designed and installed ref system.

because you are very smart but are you also a good fridgey, very rarely you find people are both......

[rjsinoz]

No one can "prove" you wrong, only you can do that, all we can do is share our understanding, then you must either decide to agree or disagree then incorperate it into your mental modle of the system.

sure they can if.....
example
i say to you the stove is hot and you dont agree, so i shove your hand onto the stove and hold it there, you will soon agree with me that it is in fact hot and thats because i proved it.....

another example
if i tell you im hung like a horse and can **** any woman i want, cause im such a good looking bloke. the minute you saw me i would have proved that simply is not true.

proving something is easy if you know the answer

[The MG Pony]

*Face palms* some just can't see the forest for the tree's <_<

step one: settle down take a deep breath

step two: care fully read the whole thread even the stuff you wrote

step three, let it sink in

step 4: dwell on it

step five come back here and let us know your epiphany!

fyi last rig was in an old bar where they never closed the door and the thing living in the evap growled at you every time you went near the txv and the plant this green thing insisted on a tole! R-22, txv hunting evap freezes up under high humidity, core issue over loaded evap blocking up with water and we can see where it goes from there!

[rjsinoz]

*Face palms* some just can't see the forest for the tree's <_<



fyi last rig was in an old bar where they never closed the door and the thing living in the evap growled at you every time you went near the txv and the plant this green thing insisted on a tole! R-22, txv hunting evap freezes up under high humidity, core issue over loaded evap blocking up with water and we can see where it goes from there!

have you been at mad fridgeys house smoking the bong.....

remember big pony digital probe in a evap coil no fans running big pony you gotta remember no fans running other wise it just wont work......
oh yeah if you dont get very close temps to what you see on your gauges after a minute depending on the size of the coil, open the txv, its not set right

[mad fridgie]

What can happen in receiver and what happens in the liquid line can be 2 different things. which one do you want to focus on.
PT charts are based upon steady state conditions, and on average are applicable to run of the mill refrigeration.
Because you are measuring averages, anything else then you are using the wrong tools and method.

For example, you poxy clamp (resolution and accuracy piss poor, but good enough for a service engineer) with a half hearted attempt at insulation. What do you think your reaction time is going to be and what influence does the surround ambient have. Quite a lot.

Why do you set an expansion valve? What is its purpose?

Why do you need sub cooling (basic reason on a basic TEV system)

[mad fridgie]

You have a sheet of metal, on one side is 30C air still and on the other is 20C air still. Which of the 2 temps is the metal sheet going to be.
What is the reason for your answer.

[rjsinoz]

You have a sheet of metal, on one side is 30C air still and on the other is 20C air still. Which of the 2 temps is the metal sheet going to be.
What is the reason for your answer.
I'm at q Work so quickly 30 degrees higher energy to loweefficehFgg

Txv why we set? To maximize cooling capacity of
evaporate coil ensure enough saturated liquid
enters to achieve correct h eat transfer from product load while maintain a superbeated vapour at the end of the cool sond liquid doesn't enter comp why subcool to offset pressure drop from vertical lift or through drier and ensure full Colin of liquid

[rjsinoz]

[QUOTE=mad fridgie;282041]You have a sheet of metal, on one side is 30C air still and on the other is 20C air still. Which of the 2 temps is the metal sheet going to be.
What is the reason for your answer.[/QUOc
I'm at q Work so quickly 30 degrees higher energy to loweefficehFgg

Txv why we set? To maximize cooling capacity of
evaporate coil ensure enough saturated liquid
enters to achieve correct h eat transfer from product load while maintain a superbeated vapour at the end of the cool sond liquid doesn't enter comp why subcool to offset pressure drop from vertical lift or through drier and ensure full Colin of liquid

Purpose creates adibatic flash ie pressure and temp match on those silly and unrealible or charts expect your one that's special cause you made it right mad manhow was that, as it was all while fault finding a hidden mp15

[rjsinoz]

[QUOTE=mad fridgie;282041]You have a sheet of metal, on one side is 30C air still and on the other is 20C air still. Which of the 2 temps is the metal sheet going to be.
What is the reason for your answer.[/QUOc
I'm at q Work so quickly 30 degrees higher energy to loweefficehFgg

Txv why we set? To maximize cooling capacity of
evaporate coil ensure enough saturated liquid
enters to achieve correct h eat transfer from product load while maintain a superbeated vapour at the end of the cool sond liquid doesn't enter comp why subcool to offset pressure drop from vertical lift or through drier and ensure full Colin of liquid

Purpose creates adibatic flash ie pressure and temp match on those silly and unrealible or charts expect your one that's special cause you made it right mad manhow was that, as it was all while fault finding a hidden mp15

[rjsinoz]

Question mad man when replacing an old r12 system with the409a and you have a non adjustsble txv why do u only charge the system tby looking at sightglass and only fill it t o say 60-70% full what is the reason for this and if u don't and fill it completly what will happen and why

[Doug30293]

Its also good to know…. Then a computer (which was designed by a human who clearly had no understanding of the gas laws himself) calculates a curve fitting algorithm from which intermediate data points can be interpolated. BET that’s accurate then…..

The algorithms were pioneered by R.Stewart, S. Penoncello, and R. Jacobson about 35 years ago. I briefly worked for them as an undergrad assistant, processing some of the data. The algorithms are available in peer reviewed publications. As for who designed the computer, I'm not sure why that would be significant.



YOUR QUOTE…..
The study of thermodynamics involves years of learning basic rules, followed by more years of learning that the rules don't apply to the real world. Most of us never reach the second stage.
PICK UP YOUR TOOLS investigate theory and cross refrence that to the real world…
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS I WORK 80 HOURS A WEEK UNDER THE PUMP…….

Actually, I've never spent a 'week under the pump'. I came to RE to learn the practical side of refrigeration from those of you with practical experience. One thing I never seem to learn is to avoid the ones who argue in circles for the sake of argument.

Back to lurking in the shadows...........

[rjsinoz]

The algorithms were pioneered by R.Stewart, S. Penoncello, and R. Jacobson about 35 years ago. I briefly worked for them as an undergrad assistant, processing some of the data. The algorithms are available in peer reviewed publications. As for who designed the computer, I'm not sure why that would be significant.



Actually, I've never spent a 'week under the pump'. I came to RE to learn the practical side of refrigeration from those of you with practical experience. One thing I never seem to learn is to avoid the ones who argue in circles for the sake of argument.

Back to lurking in the shadows...........


What do u actually do for work

[Doug30293]

What do u actually do for work

Engineering manager for a chemical batch plant in the southern USA. I am trying to bring our refrigeration work in-house so we don't have to rely on contractors, the nearest of which is an hour away. We have a technician with HVAC experience but his methods are a little out of date. Much has changed so we are learning it together.

[mad fridgie]

not to bad a description.

The question on the sheet of metal was a trick question, as you know.

The temp on each side of the metal will be different and each side will not be the same as either air temp.

The same with your measuring methods, therefore you can not support your arguments your data is flawed.

There is a saying "shyte in -shyte out" because your raw data is shyte, then so is your assumptions.

[mad fridgie]

Question mad man when replacing an old r12 system with the409a and you have a non adjustsble txv why do u only charge the system tby looking at sightglass and only fill it t o say 60-70% full what is the reason for this and if u don't and fill it completly what will happen and why

Be so wise,

Never had to and very unlikely will ever need to. So why?

[rjsinoz]

so you are an engineer
you know exactly how I txv works from a textbook but when applied in a real world sit uation you can't even realize that a permanent set valve will usually operate at 4-7k and 409a has a large temp glide from memory about 6-7 k
and if the piece of metal you're talking about was thin enough and sat in that condition for a long time it would eventually becomes 30 degrees and then the air above it Would start to rise in temperature too how does energy flow always to a lower energy source remember high thermal conductivity value of metal as well

[rjsinoz]

and to add to this the air is static the metal would become 30 degress (conduction heat transfer) the cold air would not be cooling it down, cold does go to hot,it would be simply sitting above a metal which is heating up very slowly.
keep adding a bit of water on top of the 20 degress side of the sheet and yeah id agree as the liquid would evaporate removing heat in the process so the energy would be consumed by the phase change

and my methods might be flawed in that instance but dont u worry im going to insulate the receiver next time insulate the whole liquid line install schroudour cores above and below the sglass remove drier cores and strainer and somehow come up with an idea on how to get a sensor into the system i found wireless sensors which were 5mm x5mm 1.5mm but the cost $4000 a pop so ill find another way...

oh yeah my digital gauges are awesome much quicker and more accurate then old compound gauges and if ur face plate is out a mm or two you are getting wrong readings anyways i zer my gauges out every time i use them.,...

want to play a game? question for question see who wins the old bull or the young buck

[rjsinoz]

Engineering manager for a chemical batch plant in the southern USA. I am trying to bring our refrigeration work in-house so we don't have to rely on contractors, the nearest of which is an hour away. We have a technician with HVAC experience but his methods are a little out of date. Much has changed so we are learning it together.

cool, how large are the systems u have, how many tons

[rjsinoz]

fyi last rig was in an old bar where they never closed the door and the thing living in the evap growled at you every time you went near the txv and the plant this green thing insisted on a tole! R-22, txv hunting evap freezes up under high humidity, core issue over loaded evap blocking up with water and we can see where it goes from there!

yeah tell the customer to buy a new evap coil oversize it 30% to lower humidity levels, show him how much stock can go in his room....

if he says no

clean evap coil and fan blades, install door/fan switch with big red light so he nos the doors been left open.
clean condensor, check stariner on txv for blockages and correct size if orifice is removable, turn fans off and check txv is able to shut down as it senses liquid at bulb (with no load) clean the bulb location insualte bulb,change drier, perform efficiency test


perform heat load on rooom price him up and new system

[mad fridgie]

so you are an engineer
you know exactly how I txv works from a textbook but when applied in a real world sit uation you can't even realize that a permanent set valve will usually operate at 4-7k and 409a has a large temp glide from memory about 6-7 k
and if the piece of metal you're talking about was thin enough and sat in that condition for a long time it would eventually becomes 30 degrees and then the air above it Would start to rise in temperature too how does energy flow always to a lower energy source remember high thermal conductivity value of metal as well

Oh you are so clever, glide what is that? mmmmmmmmmm. I am sure somebody has already used that term in this thread.


How can the piece of metal become the same temp as one side but not the other, surely as the metal absorbs energy from one side it must also displace energy on the other. So you not quite as smart as you think you are.

[mad fridgie]

yeah tell the customer to buy a new evap coil oversize it 30% to lower humidity levels, show him how much stock can go in his room....

if he says no

clean evap coil and fan blades, install door/fan switch with big red light so he nos the doors been left open.
clean condensor, check stariner on txv for blockages and correct size if orifice is removable, turn fans off and check txv is able to shut down as it senses liquid at bulb (with no load) clean the bulb location insualte bulb,change drier, perform efficiency test


perform heat load on rooom price him up and new system

You do have a lot learn, oversizing the evap reduces humidity???????????????????????????????????

[mad fridgie]

and to add to this the air is static the metal would become 30 degress (conduction heat transfer) the cold air would not be cooling it down, cold does go to hot,it would be simply sitting above a metal which is heating up very slowly.
keep adding a bit of water on top of the 20 degress side of the sheet and yeah id agree as the liquid would evaporate removing heat in the process so the energy would be consumed by the phase change

and my methods might be flawed in that instance but dont u worry im going to insulate the receiver next time insulate the whole liquid line install schroudour cores above and below the sglass remove drier cores and strainer and somehow come up with an idea on how to get a sensor into the system i found wireless sensors which were 5mm x5mm 1.5mm but the cost $4000 a pop so ill find another way...

oh yeah my digital gauges are awesome much quicker and more accurate then old compound gauges and if ur face plate is out a mm or two you are getting wrong readings anyways i zer my gauges out every time i use them.,...

want to play a game? question for question see who wins the old bull or the young buck

And you started with such promise,

Why do you want to insulate every thing, that is not normal, why do not measure what is in the pipe and not the pipe.

You are not yet a young buck, but more like a young pup.

[rjsinoz]

You do have a lot learn, oversizing the evap reduces humidity???????????????????????????????????
True lower ktd sst closer to air on with oversized coil

Had just worked 15 hours
And yeah once the piece of metal displaces heat it is heating up and once it contains the same among of Energy as the air below it ,it starts to heat air above the metal ie it will be 30 the air above would not get to 30 degrees but it would go higher then 20 after a period of time

[rjsinoz]

And you started with such promise,

Why do you want to insulate every thing, that is not normal, why do not measure what is in the pipe and not the pipe.

You are not yet a young buck, but more like a young pup.

As there will be minor temp diff as the pipe has a moving fluid inside it its not static like the air you talk of and what ill do smart man is install a sglass o n a stub for a freezer which has a subcooler fitted already so the lines are normally insulated and it is subcooled 20 k and just measure the temp of the outside pipe

Question Mr engineer why did the supermarket have the freezer liquid line ran through a subcooler when there is very low vertical lift in pipe and the pipe run is fairly short ie not 100 meters of pipe run

Let's see if you can apply book smarts to this ill give I a hint.....
Cash

[mad fridgie]

ha ha ha,

If you only knew??? Was not so rude, you could learn something????

[mad fridgie]

you are not the only one who has done 15hrs, apart from setting up all the mechanical, the electro mechainal, electro controls, I also have to write the software program and program the operator interface.
I also use digital gauges, and various temp sensors. But understand that a refrig system is very rarely in a truely steady state, so measurements need to be averaged, not single snap shot in time, and understand where flaws lie with test procedures.

[rjsinoz]

So the answer is Mr setup man

[The MG Pony]

Wrong! you first fix the biggest issue! them not closing the doors! till the box is able to run at design temp all readings are meaningles! and rarely ever will the txv be of issue if the plant was commisioned with due diligence!

Once the box is aproprietly sealed only then do we spend time looking further into the plant, how ever I have told them a good cleaning of the evap would be wise. and a better laged suction line would sofen the blow on their wallet.

[The MG Pony]

yeah tell the customer to buy a new evap coil oversize it 30% to lower humidity levels, show him how much stock can go in his room....

if he says no

clean evap coil and fan blades, install door/fan switch with big red light so he nos the doors been left open.
clean condensor, check stariner on txv for blockages and correct size if orifice is removable, turn fans off and check txv is able to shut down as it senses liquid at bulb (with no load) clean the bulb location insualte bulb,change drier, perform efficiency test


perform heat load on rooom price him up and new system

Why would I waste my time and the customers time and money with all this useles non sense? Non of it is called for!

Better thing to ask your self, with you knowing no details why do pray tell would you even sujest it! Assumption is the mother of all **** ups! untill they get the door fixed and the room sealed again any thing we do on the plant will only hurt in the mean time, other then cleaning the evap and walking away.

[rjsinoz]

Besides adding fan switch and alarm light and perhaps a buzzer or fan curtin you can't control them leaving the door open can y ou its always been left open the y aint stopping any time soon and if you did everything I said to do the unit wouldn't be in that state to begin with .no plant room is commisioned perfectly people are lazy just like the way you sound customers are idiotsthey will leave it open the next day when someelse starts there shift and unless you personally no every person who has ever welded a pipe on that unit AMD you are sure they run nitro through it then there is always s h i t in the strainer doors get left open haha mate that coil would have been cleaned drains unblocked txv set correctly after I let the unit get back to temp that is, you are just giving excuses as to why you didn't want to get dirty its a cop out and if the unit is for a leg room what sst is the system running at cause over here in Australia our keg rooms run at 7-10 deg C air temp
Get suppose u could incorporate a pelter some where into the job though LOL

[rjsinoz]

I bet u didn't clean it though
Can u answer my last question to mad man

[mad fridgie]

There are many reasons,
on a supermarket the liquid sub cooling cooling is normally done by the medium temp rack or even an economizer, which in simple terms have a lower compression ratio to that of the freezer.
Plus sub cooling reduces the required mass flow, to the evap to meet a specific duty, which can also reduce the the size of the piping between the the cabinets and the rack.

By the way, you can call me mad fridgie, or Mr mad, but until you show some respect to the you can not call me "mad",

[rjsinoz]

and to add to this the air is static the metal would become 30 degress (conduction heat transfer) the cold air would not be cooling it down, cold does not go to hot,it would be simply sitting above a metal which is heating up very slowly.

just a quick correction

[rjsinoz]

close but no cigar mate....

reduce the pipe size did you even consider my clue.....
CASH.....

supermarkets dont care about mass flow rates all they care about is saving cash....

so im sure in saying that you can figure out what they save by reducing the LIQUID line size...
haha you said pipe... you make me laugh after a hard night at work

so how after years of you setting up all the mechanical, the electro mechainal, electro controls, also writing the software program and programing the operator interface could you not realise that....

and im only 27 and by they way ill tell u a funny story about how i came to no why we charge the sglass to 70% for r12 to 409a retrofit....

as a third year apprentice my boss offered me a pay rise if icould tell him why we charge it to 70% at the time i had never used a PC so googling it didnt come to mind...

so after asking all the tradesman at the company maybe 10 blokes all of which said we cant tell you,((turns out they didnt know anyways, only 2 blokes did) i started ring engineers at wholesalers i rang kirby and spoke to a very smart man who seemed to know everything about the different types of refrigerants how they boil there makeup and i thought to myself (as a 18year old) alright Im getting a payrise.....
so he told me about spefic bheat capacity of 409a and a load of other non sense but it wasnt untill my question of...
so do you use the sglass to charge the system????
and he said "sglass" with a puzzled sound in his voice and i said yeah sglass do you fill it, and his response was....

NO I USE A GAUGE MANIFOLD SET......

and i said no do you look at the sglass and fill it when charging a 409a system,
his response was priceless
whats a sight glass he said.........
i laughed and said ill have to call you back mate then told all the tradesmans what he said..

from that point onwards i realized the difference between a fridge mechanic and a refrigeration/HVAC engineer (also had a good laugh) personally im trying to become both and being a young pup as you so elegantly put it ive got plently of time to do it........

[rjsinoz]

OH YEAH explain this Mr Mad...
why do we even bother factoring in "heat of transmission load" when performing a full system heat load for a new install, it must be pointless, better yet why use polystrofam its too expensive,we could just use a pieces of sheet metal as the heat would never penertrate the sheet metal all the way through we could save alot of money hey,

[rjsinoz]

one more thing this is for you and big pony

no one has resopded to the little jpg of info i posted which clearly decribes what the state of the refrigerant is in a receiver have they....
nor have any of you replyed to my statement of how stupid u all sound for saying a PT CHART is pointless, hey anyone.....
nor has anyone replyed to me stating the temp on a probe will match the saturated temp of the fluid in the middel of the coil have they

wonder why that is mad man you were very quick to reply to me about being oh so wrong about the humidity control and big pony about how i no nothing of this job and how i could

any one got answers or even a come back

[mad fridgie]

close but no cigar mate....

reduce the pipe size did you even consider my clue.....
CASH.....

supermarkets dont care about mass flow rates all they care about is saving cash....

so im sure in saying that you can figure out what they save by reducing the LIQUID line size...
haha you said pipe... you make me laugh after a hard night at work

so how after years of you setting up all the mechanical, the electro mechainal, electro controls, also writing the software program and programing the operator interface could you not realise that....

and im only 27 and by they way ill tell u a funny story about how i came to no why we charge the sglass to 70% for r12 to 409a retrofit....

as a third year apprentice my boss offered me a pay rise if icould tell him why we charge it to 70% at the time i had never used a PC so googling it didnt come to mind...

so after asking all the tradesman at the company maybe 10 blokes all of which said we cant tell you,((turns out they didnt know anyways, only 2 blokes did) i started ring engineers at wholesalers i rang kirby and spoke to a very smart man who seemed to know everything about the different types of refrigerants how they boil there makeup and i thought to myself (as a 18year old) alright Im getting a payrise.....
so he told me about spefic bheat capacity of 409a and a load of other non sense but it wasnt untill my question of...
so do you use the sglass to charge the system????
and he said "sglass" with a puzzled sound in his voice and i said yeah sglass do you fill it, and his response was....

NO I USE A GAUGE MANIFOLD SET......

and i said no do you look at the sglass and fill it when charging a 409a system,
his response was priceless
whats a sight glass he said.........
i laughed and said ill have to call you back mate then told all the tradesmans what he said..

from that point onwards i realized the difference between a fridge mechanic and a refrigeration/HVAC engineer (also had a good laugh) personally im trying to become both and being a young pup as you so elegantly put it ive got plently of time to do it........

Read what I wrote, compression ratio. Do you know what this is!
It is not the change in liquid line but suction line.

I have not seen R12 for close to 20 years, so why would i even consider it. Was in not me who introduced glide in to the equation, so I think your assumptions are wrong. as per normal.

at 27 years old you are a slow learner then.

[mad fridgie]

OH YEAH explain this Mr Mad...
why do we even bother factoring in "heat of transmission load" when performing a full system heat load for a new install, it must be pointless, better yet why use polystrofam its too expensive,we could just use a pieces of sheet metal as the heat would never penertrate the sheet metal all the way through we could save alot of money hey,

I think you need to read what is being written.

[mad fridgie]

one more thing this is for you and big pony

no one has resopded to the little jpg of info i posted which clearly decribes what the state of the refrigerant is in a receiver have they....
.....
nor has anyone replyed to me stating the temp on a probe will match the saturated temp of the fluid in the middel of the coil have they

wonder why that is mad man you were very quick to reply to me about being oh so wrong about the humidity control and big pony about how i no nothing of this job and how i could

any one got answers or even a come back

The answer has been given "your" temp measurements are wrong. hence explaining about the sheet of metal, which you have not grasped.

[rjsinoz]

you wrote
on a supermarket the liquid sub cooling cooling is normally done by the medium temp rack REALLY or even an economizer, which in simple terms have a lower compression ratio to that of the freezer.

YEAH SUCTION AND DISCHARGE PRERSSURE ARE CLOSER TO ONE ANOTHER DUE TO THE HGHER BACK PRESSURE

did you read what you wrote ALSO

Plus sub cooling reduces the required mass flow, to the evap to meet a specific duty, which can also reduce the the size of the piping between the the cabinets and the rack.

sounds to me like your talking about the liquid line right above this sentence


well im only 27 and ive seen quite abit of it, so it shows how often your on the tools does it not?????

plenty of container reefers are floating around with r12 still in them, was it not me who said yeah 0.5 k glide so really very little concern in this instance remeber near azetrop

[mad fridgie]

you wrote
on a supermarket the liquid sub cooling cooling is normally done by the medium temp rack REALLY or even an economizer, which in simple terms have a lower compression ratio to that of the freezer.

YEAH SUCTION AND DISCHARGE PRERSSURE ARE CLOSER TO ONE ANOTHER DUE TO THE HGHER BACK PRESSURE

;

Plus sub cooling reduces the required mass flow, to the evap to meet a specific duty, which can also reduce the the size of the piping between the the cabinets and the rack.

sounds to me like your talking about the liquid line right above this sentence


plenty of container reefers are floating around with r12 still in them, was it not me who said yeah 0.5 k glide so really very little concern in this instance remeber near azetrop

Did i say liquid line I said pipe sizing, more than one pipe.

Compression ratio reduction, equals increase in efficiency, hence saving the client money in running costs. Do you need to be spoon fed?

You have seen nothing, the world of refrigeration is massive. Why would I fix reefers, when you do?

[rjsinoz]

yeah alright you really are mad,

i tell you what ill send fieldpiece a critical email and let them know the ****** who writes his own pt chart says there insruments are wrong and simply cant be used to measure a fluid in a pipe with any sort of accuracy as we get huge temp differences when placing two sensors on either side of the 1 1/8 pipe the fact that there is maybe 0.1 to .3 k diff across the readings of the two sensors stiil means the the middel of the pipe is and must be much much higher in temp as copper is a very crappy thermal conductor one of the worst probaly....


you wrote mad fridgie;


The same with your measuring methods, therefore you can not support your arguments your data is flawed.

There is a saying "shyte in -shyte out" because your raw data is shyte, then so is your assumptions.


you cant answer my question on why use a pt chart to set a txv can u, u just ignor that statement,

you also ignor my statement on turning fans off and placing probe in middel of coil and it will read the temp displayed on your gagues
dont you, u havent brought that up have u, cause that is directly contradicting all the verbal diarrhea spewing from your mouth...


you all say the chart is pointless and u say my measuring methods are flawed, u all really need to pull your heads in, as the whole world measures refrigerant like this do you think danfoss place probes in there pipework when setting there own txvs no its accebtable to have a probe on the outside of the pipe even more acctable to insulate probe area.....

you do realise temp measurement is the average rate of collision of molecules right, average being main word so all measurements of heat are flawed no sensor will ever work the way you want it to, how could it, its not measuring every single individuals molecules temp and i will never be able to measure every droplet of liquid in the liquid line

i wouldnt care if i seen a few bubbles

but when a bulk subcooled liquid flows through a sglass and u see no bubbles, then i turn the donks off and half the glass is full of massive bubbles while the temp of the liquid stays the same the whole time,
and my gauges display its subcooled the whole time....

then i turn donks back on and sglass fills up straight away all while the liquid temp stayed constant.

and the final answer u give me as to why this happens is... you measured it wrong
you cant explain it, remember i am simply copying the only temp measurment method that all of you have used your whole life


........stop thinking about it in your text book explantions simply because you cant explain what the viods in the liquid is by way of your knowledge.

lets all chuck our digi temps out with our pt charts

[mad fridgie]

Just because this is the only method you know, does not mean this is the only method!

The average is correct of the pipe and its surroundings, the point you clearly miss. Is it good enough for practical refrigeration of course, but for detail it is not (and the questions you ask are about the detail). That is why when require accuracy we use various pockets, low mass sensors, sensors with limited range, thus increased accuracy and repeat-ability.
How do I know that your testing is flawed, because i too asked the same questions, but instead of being rude to those who help, i built a test rig worth well over $100,000.
let me explain about normal temps sensors, they are round, the pipe is round, so your contact point is minimal, so the rest of the probe surface area is effected by what ever is around.
The probe has mass, as does the pipe, so even though see a pressure change, there is lag between this change and changes you see in a temp probe. "thermal mass"
Then when you change form a flooded pipe (high internal thermal mass) to a pipe that has vapour in it has low thermal mass, and reduced thermal properties, then the external forces will cause a high incident of error.

When you learn some respect I will assist, but for now, you suffer in your ignorance.

Saying that let me be the first to wish you a merry christmas. I hope that santa brings you a personality

[The MG Pony]

Just because this is the only method you know, does not mean this is the only method!

The average is correct of the pipe and its surroundings, the point you clearly miss. Is it good enough for practical refrigeration of course, but for detail it is not (and the questions you ask are about the detail). That is why when require accuracy we use various pockets, low mass sensors, sensors with limited range, thus increased accuracy and repeat-ability.
How do I know that your testing is flawed, because i too asked the same questions, but instead of being rude to those who help, i built a test rig worth well over $100,000.
let me explain about normal temps sensors, they are round, the pipe is round, so your contact point is minimal, so the rest of the probe surface area is effected by what ever is around.
The probe has mass, as does the pipe, so even though see a pressure change, there is lag between this change and changes you see in a temp probe. "thermal mass"
Then when you change form a flooded pipe (high internal thermal mass) to a pipe that has vapour in it has low thermal mass, and reduced thermal properties, then the external forces will cause a high incident of error.

When you learn some respect I will assist, but for now, you suffer in your ignorance.

Saying that let me be the first to wish you a merry christmas. I hope that santa brings you a personality

That about sums it up, why I don't really bother to reply here. When he grows up and see's more of the real world he'll grasp the answers given!

[mad fridgie]

Only you say a PT chart is useless, your testing methods are for in depth knowledge. So knowing how to measure means that you can use PT chart correctly.

Why do you get the correct temp in the middle of a coil, read what I have said. The middle of a coil is effectively a pocket and is surrounded 100% by the refrigerant mass, will little influence of the ambient, not the same as a probe on the pipe, which is influenced, as proven if you wish to read.

[mad fridgie]

That about sums it up, why I don't really bother to reply here. When he grows up and see's more of the real world he'll grasp the answers given!

Thanks MG Pony, it is an industry we can always learn, which is good, and it is good to ask questions and even question ourselves, but part of being a good fridgie is being able to communicate with others. Our Aussie mate has not yet learn this important part of the industry.

[Peter_1]

Haven't read all the posts, just posting this after the 2nd page: the PT chart is for a steady state system.
In a real life system, the flow also has a serious amount of kinetic energy incoporated in its flow, acting completely different than a steady state system. In the total energy is a serious amount of kineteic energy and everywhere where you decrease area (p.e. sight glass), flow will therefore increase and static pressure will decrease (Bernouillie principle) So P/T chart is then no longer valid

[Peter_1]

And measurements taken on the outside of a tube is never correct. Measure once after the TEV or at the 1st bend of the evaporator. You should see normally 'Te' but you will notice differences of 2 to 4 K, all dependend how good your probe contact is with the copper.

[mad fridgie]

I think he is looking for a promotion "Public Relations Manager"

[mad fridgie]

Proof,
patents, sale of IPs, commercialization, peer review. (practical and theoretical engineers)
If i am a f****** idiot, then so are those who I trained, sold to and purchased from, because I ain,t that good to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.
This site has many experts in many fields, because no one knows every thing, so your response only shows how insecure with your own knowledge base.
Much of what we believe we know is not true, but if we knew which parts then we would not believe.

[r.bartlett]

On another thread I compared you to Dt larca as you seemed to show similar attributes. It is now patently clear I have done a grave injustice to DT. From your unhinged ranting (with more than a hint of racism) you are not anywhere near his level of wit or humour let alone technical ability.

I am surprised and more than a little disappointed the mods have not acted in a more appropriate manner by banning you considering we are an international forum and welcome all creeds and colours..

[Kev The Tool]

well said Richard, i am surprised this P**** doesn't get beaten up by every person that meets him. I can imagine he is a pleasure to work with. I did notice whilst telling us all how great he is, he didn't mention what other techs think of him. (i'm sure he will though)

[Rob White]

.

I'm surprised this thread is still open and rjsinoz has not been reprimanded.

I have read this thread from the first post and I could not believe the hostility
in rjsinoz's posts and he reminded me of DT, like you Richard.

I have kept away from commenting (until now) because I could not weigh up
rjsinoz and I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but his post (or rantings) have
descended into personal abuse and racism.

I'm tempted to just block him (I would have done it earlier but can't remember how)
but there is an underlying problem with him if he comes onto a forum, makes a few
statements and then turns nasty because people don't shout how fantastic he is.

If you ever take advice rjsinoz, take this bit

Calm down, take deep breaths and re-read all the posts from the beginning. you might
be surprised to see that originally people were talking and offering advice but it was
you who was dogmatic in your approach and opinion that only you were correct and
every one else was wrong.

When this was pointed out to you, you then went on a personal attack and started
hurling personal insults out at almost everyone.

You might know some answers to a few things and you might be willing to learn, so
stop this arrogant, racist, insulting behavior otherwise your time on here will be
short and unpleasant.

Regards

Rob

.

[Peter_1]

I just noticed now these thread. I do not have the time these days to sit behind my computer oher than making invoices. I even read only the first 2 pages and some of the posts on the 5th page before making my statement.
It's sometimes difficult to judge how far one is going in insulting someone in another language.
I gave him the opportunity to edit his posts and perhaps previous post needs to be edited as well.

[frank]

On another thread I compared you to Dt larca as you seemed to show similar attributes. It is now patently clear I have done a grave injustice to DT. From your unhinged ranting (with more than a hint of racism) you are not anywhere near his level of wit or humour let alone technical ability.

I am surprised and more than a little disappointed the mods have not acted in a more appropriate manner by banning you considering we are an international forum and welcome all creeds and colours..

If you look through the thread Richard, you will see that I have been amending the posts from the beginning.....but now he has overstepped the mark and will be banned.

[Josip]

Hi, Kev The Tool

your question .....


well said Richard, i am surprised this P**** doesn't get beaten up by every person that meets him. I can imagine he is a pleasure to work with. I did notice whilst telling us all how great he is, he didn't mention what other techs think of him. (i'm sure he will though)

and OP answer .....


hello all,
My name is Ryan im from Australia Sydney. I have been in the trade 10 years.
I am in the process of trying to figure out if the fluid in a receiver tank,is in a saturated state.
I have read a lot of forums on the subject and would like to get your feedback on my theory.
based on my observations on a low temp rack in a supermarket.
best example to use for this theory.
............
.................................................................................................
........ i think the state of the fluid is subcooled at the bottom (bulk liquid) and at the head or interface of liquid to vapour (also above this interface) its in a theoretical saturated vapour state with nonequilibrium conditions occurring.
Thus the rise and fall of the liquid in the tank is not only from TXV opening and closing due to loads but also from the rate at which evaporation and condensation occurs.

I think this state occurs NOT by the increase of energy into the subcooled liquid
(ie we add sensible heat to a subcooled liquid to become a liquid with no subcooling, then add latent to cause a phase change to begin to a saturated liquid then saturated vapour)
but by the simpler process of evaporation, of a fluid in a closed/dynamic system with constantly uneven molecular kinetic energy levels occuring at the top of the liquid.
mostly from the liquid entering the tank causing different waves or splash patterns and the minor fluctuation of pressures and temps.
I would love to hear what you all think as everyone i ask here in Australia just thinks im an idiot for looking in to it too much. (The funny thing is i work for the largest refrigeration company in Australia.)


.... it was obvious where is leading further discussion ..... unfortunately, it looks, we all miss to read between the lines ....


Best regards, Josip

[The MG Pony]

an old saying here is you can't help some on who is unwilling to help them self. I am all ways game for furthering ones grasp of their field, half the fun in refrigeration is all the neat new stuff you learn while doing it! On one of josips threads I learnt I was wrong with how I understood amonia and aluminium work togeather! some times it is hard for others to let go of their preconcieved ideas and treat it as an emotional attack rather then some one volunteering their hard earned experiance to help us on the right path!

when I look at the title in hind sight, the way it is titled lends towards he wasn't here to learn hence why I said only he could prove him self wrong, all we can do is lend out or grasp of it!

It is unfortunat he wasted this oppertunity, I hope he gets over the issues and comes back in a more responsive way to learn from the volumes of knowledge the users here posses! It has helped me along greatly. So on his behalf I thank all of you for your shared knowledge!

[mad fridgie]

Mods, you are doing good job.

[Brian_UK]

Just have myself a little laugh..

Checked the profile of our friend and under 'Friends' it states ---
"Rjsinoz has not made any friends yet"

About sums it up I think.

[mikeref]

Having followed this thread from the beginning, i have to congratulate MG pony and Mad F for continuing to keep a cool head while the O.P. only showed disrespect.

[Brian_UK]

Having followed this thread from the beginning, i have to congratulate MG pony and Mad F for continuing to keep a cool head while the O.P. only showed disrespect.
Agreed whole heartedly.

[Nh34life]

Wow this has been an epic round about argument about something that doesn't even matter, totally agree with my Kiwi country man, dont ever trust instrumentation, trust averages and what is actually happening.

[rjsinoz]

Let’s get a few things straight edited
***
***
***
When a near stable system running at fairly consistent loads/pressures experiences a sudden or abrupt reduction in its refrigerant flow rate, the refrigerant can been seen to have a sudden pressure drop that is created at nearly the precious moment the flow rate changes
What else do we know, when a liquid line is sized up, it is, in basic terms, sized to the capacity of the compressor at a given SST at a rated ambient and pressure drop and its main function is to maintained an acceptable velocity of a liquid through the area of that pipe. So when all 4 compressors are running it can and usually does maintain a full Colum of liquid through the sight glass with minimal bubbles occurring. Assuming other conditions are correct of course.
E.g. My video-
System running normally @ 95.7psi SCT
------- THEN------
3 compressors off plus ½ of remaining compressor off (unloaded)
Effectively 12.5% capacity now running,
20seconds later video shows my awesome gauges displaying 86.8psi and rising
So its safe to safe pressure went even lower than this but let’s just go with what we can see.
Then I press some buttons and my gauges display 0.4SC..
Now it has been made perfectly clear that my measurements were flawed, which I now thank you for MAD MEN and Big Pony as you made me realise what has actually happened
I will now share it with you all, not for the benefit of this forum but to simply point out no one else ever said it or realised it.
Where is the condenser and receiver I said to myself?
Now let’s think about those statements for a while people……

That’s right all before the sight glass,
I was measuring the pressure at the inlet to the drier core and when we saw the 9psi pressure drop occur (remember probably was higher drop) then I checked sub cool reading which was only 0.4K.
Now if you all go and have a look at the various points through the video you will clearly see the liquids temp stayed the same according to my inaccurate reading.
So let’s say I now agree with you that I wasn’t recording the correct temp, whatever temp difference occurred between the pipe and the fluid, was still only ever a wrong reading on my display by which I mean my displayed showed 26.6 C when it was actually 27.6 C for an example, either way my recordings were always lower than actual fluid temp.
They must have been as if the fluid temps were lower we would have been increasing SC rate and that would completely contradicted everything you said..
So as we instantly decreased pressure by 9 psi our SCT went from 29.5C to below our actual liquid lines temp meaning the condensers coils pressure went lower and our liquid receivers pressure went lower and what happens when we lower the pressure of our condenser coil and liquid receiver to a value lower than our actual liquid lines temp……..
That’s right the liquid instantly changes state from a sub cooled liquid to a saturated liquid/fluid.
And that’s a lot of liquid which just changed state whole receiver for example…..
Then I asked myself why did the bubbles appear to become less visible as the pressure started to get higher again, then I said to myself hold on, you’re not the dumb ass, it’s because when a liquid or a saturated liquids, SCP increases as the temp of the liquid stays the same the fluid will lean towards a sub cooled state as the condensing pressure increases and start to flash the lower the SCP becomes.
And then I turn all 4 compressors on at 100% pumping rate and what happens discharge pressure rapidly rises well above the liquid actual temp and BANG we have a sub cooled liquid and see a full Colum of liquid………


AND YEAH I DID ANSWER MY OWN QUESTION .... regarding this forums actual question which was saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG
as along as equilibrium between vapour evaporating and vapour condensing is not occuring the subcooled liquid is simply evaporating inside the recevier and due to the fact that theres a constantly varying amount of liquid entering and leaving the tank, levels changing along with pressures and flow rates i know that equilibrium would never occur inside that tank.

One last thing too directed at Brian_UK.... what are you like 10 years old.
why would i want to make friend on the net i can go and drink beer with real people at the pub.... ******

[rjsinoz]

as the condensing pressure DECREASES THE FLUID WILL start to flash DUE TO THE lower SCP

[rjsinoz]

it’s because when a liquid or a saturated liquids, SCP increases as the temp of the liquid stays the same the fluid will lean towards a sub cooled state as the condensing pressure increases and start to flash the lower the SCP becomes.
And then I turn all 4 compressors on at 100% pumping rate and what happens discharge pressure rapidly rises well above the liquid actual temp and BANG we have a sub cooled liquid and see a full Colum of liquid………


it’s because when a liquid or a saturated liquids, SCP increases as the temp of the liquid stays the same the fluid will lean towards a sub cooled state, as the condensing pressure DECREASES THE FLUID WILL start to flash DUE TO THE lower SCP at constant liquid temp....

[Kev The Tool]

Hi Ryan,
Can you answer me this, why did you join this forum. You obviously have no intention of contributing to the topics on the forum. It seems to me you only want to prove to the world you are by far the greatest engineer in the world. well done and pat yourself on the back for letting us all know how great you are. but people come on here cos they need help not belittling. You come across as being very arrogant. and just for the record, prison does not give the ability to kick the f**k out of everyone. the way you have conversed with some of the lads on here is just disrespectful,

[The MG Pony]

So you just rehashed all the sh** we been saying to you and claiming it yours? Big man way to go and all that sod! indeed you are teh elite!

Why you put us in our place by throwing our own information back at us in your own words!

with your attitude I think you n the local clink will become good friends!

[rjsinoz]

yeah yeah it didnt take long all i did was go through the info, shall i look for the post you clearly said its a saturated liquid caused by a sudden pressure drop.

go on show me the post that wasnt a vague statement which could me anything, in fact show me any statement you wrote to say this is what the state of the vapour is in in that sglass.

you see you are a person who gives vague answers because they dont want to back themselves on what there thoughts are.
if i think something is true ill back myself 150% and fight till the death thats what real man does, they dont um and ar cause they dont want to look like a idiot in front of other memebers they say it straight up,
then they certainly dont write a post later trying to claim they knew the answer the whole time.

you see u all think im a ****** to be polite but what u dont realise is the only time you actually said what u meant and backed yourself was when you got angry at the posts i wrote.

example big pony after i called u on it a few times you responded with why u get same sst temp as probe temp when inside a evap coil and u were spot on but u only responded cause i annoyed u enough to respond......
simply writing POCKETS in a statement is vague and not at all helpful now with a bit of anger from ur end u told me how it is........
at least i can respect you when your angry. you might not want my respect but every man should be a man and say what they belive.......

come on MAD MEN where was your answer as all i remeber u saying was saturated vapour which it clearly was not.
and when you get down to details saturated liquid is alot different to saturated vapour isin it ?>????????

[mad fridgie]

Let’s get a few things straight

When a near stable system running at fairly consistent loads/pressures experiences a sudden or abrupt reduction in its refrigerant flow rate, the refrigerant can been seen to have a sudden pressure drop that is created at nearly the precious moment the flow rate changes
What else do we know, when a liquid line is sized up, it is, in basic terms, sized to the capacity of the compressor at a given SST at a rated ambient and pressure drop and its main function is to maintained an acceptable velocity of a liquid through the area of that pipe. So when all 4 compressors are running it can and usually does maintain a full Colum of liquid through the sight glass with minimal bubbles occurring. Assuming other conditions are correct of course.
E.g. My video-
System running normally @ 95.7psi SCT
------- THEN------
3 compressors off plus ½ of remaining compressor off (unloaded)
Effectively 12.5% capacity now running,
20seconds later video shows my awesome gauges displaying 86.8psi and rising
So its safe to safe pressure went even lower than this but let’s just go with what we can see.
Then I press some buttons and my gauges display 0.4SC..
Now it has been made perfectly clear that my measurements were flawed, which I now thank you for MAD MEN and Big Pony as you made me realise what has actually happened
I will now share it with you all, not for the benefit of this forum but to simply point out no one else ever said it or realised it.
Where is the condenser and receiver I said to myself?
Now let’s think about those statements for a while people……

That’s right all before the sight glass,
I was measuring the pressure at the inlet to the drier core and when we saw the 9psi pressure drop occur (remember probably was higher drop) then I checked sub cool reading which was only 0.4K.
Now if you all go and have a look at the various points through the video you will clearly see the liquids temp stayed the same according to my inaccurate reading.
So let’s say I now agree with you that I wasn’t recording the correct temp, whatever temp difference occurred between the pipe and the fluid, was still only ever a wrong reading on my display by which I mean my displayed showed 26.6 C when it was actually 27.6 C for an example, either way my recordings were always lower than actual fluid temp.
They must have been as if the fluid temps were lower we would have been increasing SC rate and that would completely contradicted everything you said..
So as we instantly decreased pressure by 9 psi our SCT went from 29.5C to below our actual liquid lines temp meaning the condensers coils pressure went lower and our liquid receivers pressure went lower and what happens when we lower the pressure of our condenser coil and liquid receiver to a value lower than our actual liquid lines temp……..
That’s right the liquid instantly changes state from a sub cooled liquid to a saturated liquid/fluid.
And that’s a lot of liquid which just changed state whole receiver for example…..
Then I asked myself why did the bubbles appear to become less visible as the pressure started to get higher again, then I said to myself hold on, you’re not the dumb ass, it’s because when a liquid or a saturated liquids, SCP increases as the temp of the liquid stays the same the fluid will lean towards a sub cooled state as the condensing pressure increases and start to flash the lower the SCP becomes.
And then I turn all 4 compressors on at 100% pumping rate and what happens discharge pressure rapidly rises well above the liquid actual temp and BANG we have a sub cooled liquid and see a full Colum of liquid………


AND YEAH I DID ANSWER MY OWN QUESTION .... regarding this forums actual question which was saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG
as along as equilibrium between vapour evaporating and vapour condensing is not occuring the subcooled liquid is simply evaporating inside the recevier and due to the fact that theres a constantly varying amount of liquid entering and leaving the tank, levels changing along with pressures and flow rates i know that equilibrium would never occur inside that tank.

One last thing too directed at Brian_UK.... what are you like 10 years old.
why would i want to make friend on the net i can go and drink beer with real people at the pub.... dumb A**

Glad to see it still makes your think.
I think that the answer is covered by the terms dynamic and or change.
An in depth answer of any form could not be given, because you were blind to your earlier thoughts and practices. (how can a correct answer be given if the raw data is not correct)
So it would seem that you have understood some of the points raised, and taken these on board.
As far as your answer goes, it is on the right direction, but do you not think that things happen before the receiver inlet. Think of the thermal mass of the cond and the speed of the fan control loop. You may find that flow into the receiver stops. But liquid is still be drawn from the reciever at a momentary high rate that the comp inlet mass value. (the thermal mass of the evaps and the TXVs being open for max ref. load)
The equilibrium point is always changing by what degree is where measurement methods become important.

So why do you continue to be rude, mistakes we all make, "so i could understand your frustration" (on what should seem a simple question), you moved on technically, why not move on personally? an opportunity was given for you to teach or be taught. If you think you have nothing to learn, then you are the only one you are fooling.:p

[mad fridgie]

yeah yeah it didnt take long all i did was go through the info, shall i look for the post you clearly said its a saturated liquid caused by a sudden pressure drop.

go on show me the post that wasnt a vague statement which could me anything, in fact show me any statement you wrote to say this is what the state of the vapour is in in that sglass.

you see you are a person who gives vague answers because they dont want to back themselves on what there thoughts are.
if i think something is true ill back myself 150% and fight till the death thats what real man does, they dont um and ar cause they dont want to look like a idiot in front of other memebers they say it straight up,
then they certainly dont write a post later trying to claim they knew the answer the whole time.

you see u all think im a ****** to be polite but what u dont realise is the only time you actually said what u meant and backed yourself was when you got angry at the posts i wrote.

example big pony after i called u on it a few times you responded with why u get same sst temp as probe temp when inside a evap coil and u were spot on but u only responded cause i annoyed u enough to respond......
simply writing POCKETS in a statement is vague and not at all helpful now with a bit of anger from ur end u told me how it is........
at least i can respect you when your angry. you might not want my respect but every man should be a man and say what they belive.......

come on MAD MEN where was your answer as all i remeber u saying was saturated vapour which it clearly was not.
and when you get down to details saturated liquid is alot different to saturated vapour isin it ?>????????

Saturated vapour is what it is.
you have stated that the pressure changes, the liquid boils and conds, so your vapour at the interface will be saturated, and in the slight glass with turbulent mixing will also be saturated, during the process due to velocity and localized pressure differentials, could offer vapour either in a supercooled state or its own micro pressure envelope.

[mad fridgie]

As many do, one of your problems is that you look at parts of a system, instead of understanding that the system is always the whole thing. refrigeration systems are circular, so a change in one area will cause change in all other areas.

[mad fridgie]

as the condensing pressure DECREASES THE FLUID WILL start to flash DUE TO THE lower SCP

So that is what you wanted to know.

If you drop the pressure on liquid that is on or close to its boiling, then it will boil? "yes" upto a point where an external energy source is required to continue the boiling process, the energy source need to be at a higher transmittable level than that of the boiling liquid.

i am sure that dropping pressure is what we try to do in a refrigeration circuit???

So answer your next question, the opposite could be true if the the pressure was increased an a vapour would turn into a liquid.

In both cases there are exceptions, for example "sublimation"

[American_Tech]

Hello all,

This is my first day on this site, this is my first thread i have read and actually my first post. I have read through this entire post, and must say I have drawn two conclusions.

First- I am completely at ease to post any questions I have here after reading through this. As i can see that, a lot of the "veteran" posters here exhibit extreme patience in the face of ignorance. So i know any discrepancies I may encounter in my logic of things as I pose questions or posts, will be met with the same patience, and that places me at ease.

Secondly- The wealth of knowledge and experience that is possessed here, from all sides of the table is phenomenal, and I look forward to learning from all of you and hopefully being able to provide my two cents and be beneficial to the community.

Plus O.P. ignorance gave me a good laugh, oddly enough the only saying that would repeatedly come to mind when reading the back and forth was "pearls before swine"

[mad fridgie]

Thanks Peter,

Hi American Tech, and welcome. You picked a lively thread to respond to.

[The MG Pony]

Indeed he did, idiots albeit annoying usually do offer the general community an occasional good laugh! and yes we do our best to steer ones in the most practical and accurate way we can.

To the OP: Vague is what you get, you don't grasp the system well enough for me to give a precise answer that and you do not have the tools to allow me do give any precise answer! Believe it or not I value my personal time, so when here I give the best I can with what is offered to work with, if you want me to share well over 15 years of on hand experience and 5 years of study (both where concurrent) learn some simple respect and start listening!

I was born in industry and I do mean literally, this isn't a job but a life style, when I started to get serious about this as a career is about when I started posting here and since listening to the people here and taking their advice advanced me in ways I can not begin to say, I went from a monkey like you to just grasping the system enough to do the work to grasping how to engineer a system from the ground up! You'd be wise to give your head a thorough slap and realign the way you choose your words befor having your rude rear booted off to the street, and that will be a terrible waste for you!

As Mad said, the system is a whole, and when in operation it is a game of nothing more then balance and averages, every tiny change alters the whole model in a dynamic fashion, with my tools I can get very close to real time fluid and gas temps, my tools let me place the probe in the direct flow of the fluid not the pipe and even then they are not precise enough for what you where trying to do! so you need to learn all the talk is just theory but even in theory the pt chart is just a static reference! then you need to factor in fluid dynamics where physics becomes a factor and so fourth.

[Peter_1]

@American_Tech, this was a nice intro after all this verbal violence. Welcome.
@R.B., i not allways have time to read all posts. It's extremely busy for the moment with my daily job.

[monkey spanners]

Lazy sight glass!

[install monkey]

hi ryan welcome to the forum!:D

[rjsinoz]

So that is what you wanted to know.

If you drop the pressure on liquid that is on or close to its boiling, then it will boil? "yes" upto a point where an external energy source is required to continue the boiling process, the energy source need to be at a higher transmittable level than that of the boiling liquid.

i am sure that dropping pressure is what we try to do in a refrigeration circuit???

So answer your next question, the opposite could be true if the the pressure was increased an a vapour would turn into a liquid.

In both cases there are exceptions, for example "sublimation"

and yeah thats all i wanted to no, thanks for saying my measurments were wrong 20 times then suddenly i realized what happens when a liquids pressure decreases at a constant temp. CASE CLOSED lol

gees i thought when we lowered sst we lost capacity dont we.

i think we should all know how phase change occurs, ill tell u what, next time some young punk gets on the forum and starts making a mockery of the last how ever many years you said youve been a fridgey just shoot me an email and ill give you the answers youll need.
maybe ill be a young buck by then too.

besides the rare cases of co2 subliming please give me an example, from all the many years of your knowledge when a different refrigerant has had sublimaintion occur.



sorry big fella it would appear your the angry one now WONDER WHY THAT IS?, the liquid had its oown heat in the fluid itself, remember the temp stayed within A DIFFERENTIAL of 0.0K AND 0.5K THE WHOLE MOVIE, by changing the pressure at a constant temp we will have the fluid start to become a SATURATED LIQUID or a subcooled liquid depending on which way the pressure goes... AND THIS STATEMENT YOU WROTE..
"yes" upto a point where an external energy source is required to continue the boiling process, the energy source need to be at a higher transmittable level than that of the boiling liquid.

EXTACTLY RIGHT SO IT IS CLEARLY NOT A SATURATED VAPOUR IS IT???????????????????? AS PREVIOUSLY STATED

AS WE DIDNT HAVE THAT EXTERNAL HEAT SOURCE SO HAHAHAHAHAHA
....
oh yeah u wrote
Saturated vapour is what it is.
you have stated that the pressure changes, the liquid boils and conds, so your vapour at the interface will be saturated, and in the slight glass with turbulent mixing will also be saturated, during the process due to velocity and localized pressure differentials, could offer vapour either in a supercooled state or its own micro pressure envelope.

...edited...

EVERYONE WHEN MS MAD WRITES THIS -so your vapour at the interface will be saturated, and in the slight glass with turbulent mixing will also be saturated, during the process due to velocity and localized pressure differentials, could offer vapour either in a supercooled state or its own micro pressure envelope.
....
the fact is subcooled liquid started a phase change, because the pressure decreased 9 psi at a constant liquid temp, no external heat source was present to allow the phase chage to go any further and the pressure rised again so the liquid simply went back to a subcooled state SIMPLY REALLY

...edited ....

anyways back to now .
i never once said it boils i wrote

....

besides the rare cases of co2 subliming please give me an example, from all the many years of your knowledge when a different refrigerant has had sublimaintion occur.
are you a turtle cause i really think you should pull your head in.......

...edited....

[monkey spanners]

The world is simply a mirror, reflecting back to us our own inner state. If we are inwardly in turmoil then we are certain to see a tumultuous world. A seemingly joyous world is only returning to us our own inward joy. What we see is a reflection of our state of consciousness.

What type of world do you live in rjsinoz?

[Grizzly]

Monkey.
Your words, or should I say the words of your beliefs.
Are Stunning!
You don't use them enough, in my opinion.

Your words risinoz are just hollow!
Words used correctly have substance!

You have managed to achieve upsetting many on this forum.
Well done!
I hope your persistence is worth it.
Grizzly

[mad fridgie]

and yeah thats all i wanted to no, thanks for saying my measurments were wrong 20 times then suddenly i realized what happens when a liquids pressure decreases at a constant temp. CASE CLOSED lol

gees i thought when we lowered sst we lost capacity dont we.

i think we should all know how phase change occurs, ill tell u what, next time some young punk gets on the forum and starts making a mockery of the last how ever many years you said youve been a fridgey just shoot me an email and ill give you the answers youll need.
maybe ill be a young buck by then too.

besides the rare cases of co2 subliming please give me an example, from all the many years of your knowledge when a different refrigerant has had sublimaintion occur.



sorry big fella it would appear your the angry one now WONDER WHY THAT IS?, the liquid had its oown heat in the fluid itself, remember the temp stayed within A DIFFERENTIAL of 0.0K AND 0.5K THE WHOLE MOVIE, by changing the pressure at a constant temp we will have the fluid start to become a SATURATED LIQUID or a subcooled liquid depending on which way the pressure goes... AND THIS STATEMENT YOU WROTE..
"yes" upto a point where an external energy source is required to continue the boiling process, the energy source need to be at a higher transmittable level than that of the boiling liquid.

EXTACTLY RIGHT SO IT IS CLEARLY NOT A SATURATED VAPOUR IS IT???????????????????? AS PREVIOUSLY STATED

AS WE DIDNT HAVE THAT EXTERNAL HEAT SOURCE SO HAHAHAHAHAHA
see what happens when you get angry and write a post all because a 27 year old who just got out of the nick proves u wrong..,.
oh yeah u wrote

do you actually read what you write when your angry, listen to yourself you sound drunk.....

to me thats embarrasing at least at the end of the day after everything i wrote i found the answer. you are just making things up now abit like that $100,000 rig you made to prove why this problem occurs in the first place.

EVERYONE WHEN MS MAD WRITES THIS -so your vapour at the interface will be saturated, and in the slight glass with turbulent mixing will also be saturated, during the process due to velocity and localized pressure differentials, could offer vapour either in a supercooled state or its own micro pressure envelope.
WHAT HE IS SAYING IS IM TRYING TO SOUND REALLY SMART SO I DONT LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT.
the fact is subcooled liquid started a phase change, because the pressure decreased 9 psi at a constant liquid temp, no external heat source was present to allow the phase chage to go any further and the pressure rised again so the liquid simply went back to a subcooled state SIMPLY REALLY
and every good fridgey nows im right regardless of there personal opintion of me, oh yeah geuss what big pony and ms MAD a PT CHART would have and could have recoreded all of this happening if i had only used a better sensor ah well,
luckliy i didnt spent $100,000dollars like Ms MAD did to build a rig then find out a large presure drop occured and thats why liquid flashes ,woundnt i feel silly...
better yet id feel even more stupid if i told a forum i had to build a $100,000 rig to fing out why the liquid flashed in a liquid line due to a decreased mass flow rate....

anyways back to your lies......
i never once said it boils i wrote




besides the rare cases of co2 subliming please give me an example, from all the many years of your knowledge when a different refrigerant has had sublimaintion occur.
are you a turtle cause i really think you should pull your head in.......

one last thing anyone wonder why i havent been banned from this website.....
i think its because i do know what im talking about and im not making crap up as i go along to suit my argument
and who ever is actually running the site reliases this.

BYE BYE BIG PONY
BYE BYE Ms MAD
just remember a scum bag jail bird, just schooled you too, but hey as you say your both willing to learn something new, so i suppose your happy.
hahahahahahahaahahahahahhahahhahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahaah

Hi Ryan,

so without your ramblings, what have you discovered, "technically"?

Can you keep it simple as I still in the learning phase of my refrigeration career.

[rjsinoz]

Clearly obvious.
Not to go onto this website without buying a mass flow sensor or Richie sensor and to think about the most reasonable answer when attempting to find Out why liquid starts to flash as 99% of the time it's simply oh yeah to not to ask engineers such as yourself for your thoughts as I receive silly responses and your all to gutless to say what you really think in fear of what others might think of you what did I learn. Oh one other thing I'd love to hear you explain your thought on how compression ratio changes on a freezer rack by adding a subcooler which is run from a stub off a med temp rack just reading all posts last night and really can't figure out what I mean as say spent change and Scp doesn't change so where's the energy saving in that case well besides a smaller condenser

[rjsinoz]

Sorry auto spell SUCTION pressure or head presure

[mad fridgie]

Clearly obvious.
Not to go onto this website without buying a mass flow sensor or Richie sensor and to think about the most reasonable answer when attempting to find Out why liquid starts to flash as 99% of the time it's simply oh yeah to not to ask engineers such as yourself for your thoughts as I receive silly responses and your all to gutless to say what you really think in fear of what others might think of you what did I learn. Oh one other thing I'd love to hear you explain your thought on how compression ratio changes on a freezer rack by adding a subcooler which is run from a stub off a med temp rack just reading all posts last night and really can't figure out what I mean as say spent change and Scp doesn't change so where's the energy saving in that case well besides a smaller condenser

I will ignore your rants, however you do ask some good questions, that some may fear to ask. (but the answer can be simple or as complicated as you wish)

In simple terms, sub cooling changes the ratio of liquid boiling/vaporizing which is used for net refrigeration effect. In the evap this called "vapour fraction", so the more sub cooling, the more of the main liquid stream to evaporate "latent heat" for cooling what you want cool.
The first thing the liquid has to do before it can cool the product, is to cool it self down, this done by reducing the pressure in the first instance, and then by evaporating part of the total liquid mass to cool the remained of the liquid mass. You are familiar with a PT chart, now try a PH chart which brings energy content into the equation.
Because the energy removed during the sub cooling process, is more efficient than the original LT rack, then a energy input saving is made.

Does liquid sub cooling change compression ratio, yes and no (not the answer that you want), because your mass flow can be reduced and your surface area/flow remains constant, then your LMTD increases, there for a lower compression ratio is required to meet the new equilibrium, but if the cond fans are controlled, then discharge will remain constant, because you are adjust the LMTD to meet a fixed process variable (yes it is fixed but could be a variable) In the instance of a high pressure drop evap, SST normally rises, as the pressure drop through the evap reduces as less flash gas enters, and as you know per mass, vapour causes a greater pressure drop compared to the same mass of liquid through said pipe.
But if the evap is a low pressure drop evap and has not been circuited to low flash gas, then performance of the evap can drop because in-sufficent turbulence occurs at the beginning of the evap reducing dramatically the heat transfer co-efficient. Which then of course drop the outlet saturated pressure/temp, lowing the compressor suction and increasing the compression ratio.

[The MG Pony]

lol thats all I can say about him at this point, I comemerate you on your patience mad, perhaps at some point he'll grasp the concept.


As for you op: go find a pdf on Building an efficient system, on the benifits of slhx on R-12 and hydrocarbon blended systems, and on active subcooling systems.

perhaps if you read it your self and see the picturs it may help.

tried to make it simpler and put them here but allas a 100kb limmit is kinda antiquidated

fyi I think you need to school your self considerably more befor you could even begin to try with us here "mate"

Atm the mods are showing you mercy and giving you a chance to redeem your self, do not waste it, other wise you will get learn the difference ells where!!

[rjsinoz]

I will ignore your rants, however you do ask some good questions, that some may fear to ask. (but the answer can be simple or as complicated as you wish)

In simple terms, sub cooling changes the ratio of liquid boiling/vaporizing which is used for net refrigeration effect. In the evap this called "vapour fraction", so the more sub cooling, the more of the main liquid stream to evaporate "latent heat" for cooling what you want cool.
The first thing the liquid has to do before it can cool the product, is to cool it self down, this done by reducing the pressure in the first instance, and then by evaporating part of the total liquid mass to cool the remained of the liquid mass. You are familiar with a PT chart, now try a PH chart which brings energy content into the equation.
Because the energy removed during the sub cooling process, is more efficient than the original LT rack, then a energy input saving is made.

Does liquid sub cooling change compression ratio, yes and no (not the answer that you want), because your mass flow can be reduced and your surface area/flow remains constant, then your LMTD increases, there for a lower compression ratio is required to meet the new equilibrium, but if the cond fans are controlled, then discharge will remain constant, because you are adjust the LMTD to meet a fixed process variable (yes it is fixed but could be a variable) In the instance of a high pressure drop evap, SST normally rises, as the pressure drop through the evap reduces as less flash gas enters, and as you know per mass, vapour causes a greater pressure drop compared to the same mass of liquid through said pipe.
But if the evap is a low pressure drop evap and has not been circuited to low flash gas, then performance of the evap can drop because in-sufficent turbulence occurs at the beginning of the evap reducing dramatically the heat transfer co-efficient. Which then of course drop the outlet saturated pressure/temp, lowing the compressor suction and increasing the compression ratio.

....edited...
Well executed perfectly said an excellent response thank you that's all I wanted from you to begin with, I understood it all and never thought about it that way.....

[mikeref]

Oh, Ding Ding....Round 2 and i missed the start.:cool:
MG pony is correct Ryan, You have evaded the noose so far.
I can only guess that some of your comments, after skimming over the derogatory sections, shows you have the ability to resolve technical issues, and that might add points in your favour.
Communication with colleagues and having an open mind is sadly lagging.
BTW, you are damn lucky to have Mad F responding to your posts.... ;)

[Peter_1]

The world is simply a mirror, reflecting back to us our own inner state. If we are inwardly in turmoil then we are certain to see a tumultuous world. A seemingly joyous world is only returning to us our own inward joy. What we see is a reflection of our state of consciousness.

What type of world do you live in rjsinoz?
MS, I had to insert this in Google Translate to be sure I fully understood this phrases. Wise words and so true

[mikeref]

MS, I had to insert this in Google Translate to be sure I fully understood this phrases. Wise words and so true
Knowing another language is way beyond me. Apart from a few words and sentences in Japanese that my youngest daughter taught me.
Using on-line translation seems to make a mess of: Dutch/ Hebrew/ Italian... and.....IRISH :o
Sorry Al and Stufus.:eek::D
OFF TOPIC..:off topic:

[rjsinoz]

..edited...

d by Peter_1; 28-07-2013 at*05:43 PM.*Reason:*personally and sarcastic post

No it wasnt actuall if u read it carefully i refered to him as MR MAD Mr being key word here the rest was because i was laughing at his quick aNd excellent response i thought good on you. it didnt take 10 posts to have him tell me how it is....
Just me not many people will get much more respect than that off me.

[rjsinoz]

I Last edited by mikeref; 28-07-2013 at*05:37 PM.*Reason:*........
What is the reason

And peter is so right your inspirational monkey........
so anyways who wants to chat about my next question whats the.state of the liquid in an accumulator
Hahahaha

[stufus]

I hope you are better fridgey than you are a con,considering my understanding of being a good crook is to evade the law and avoid "the clink".
I'm starting to wonder if this is a cry for help, surely it could not have been easy to repeatedly pick up the soap for Big Bob and the bitches.
I can't begin to Imagine how irritable it must be to have an arse-hole like a fresh bullet wound.
Wishing you all the best in your search for love (post clink) and your obvious quest for redemtion and salvation.

Cheers

Stu

[mikeref]

Ask him ....What??:confused:
Sorry, didn't catch that. Did you ask how he managed to avoid.....while picking up the soap?

[mikeref]

Meh, stufus posted before i had finished my question. So? About the soap...

[rjsinoz]

one more thing jail was terrible, cant stress that enough.....
16hours a day locked down (NSW)
smallest meals you have ever seen
tiny little cells
everyone wants to fight to prove who is the toughest.
very limited amount of people have money ie everyone bludges smokes

but every now and agian id meet a bloke just like Santa Claus, ....

jail made me a stronger person in the end but i was only in for 20 months, ask yourself Santa, reckon you could do it
for 1 stop a loved one from getting hurt and doing what needs to be done and 2 stand up for your self while in the presence of some very bad men, somehow i think evryone reading this post and even you know you couldnt cause you are a little coward.....

[stufus]

Listen mate you can sling all the flack you want in my direction ,What make's you so sure I know little about prison??
My interjection into this thread was late, agreed !! Due to the fact I've been working away all week and not had the time to read up.
Am I a fridgey ??? Not really relevant to the direction I was heading in this conversation.
So your a ****ing hero ,and a legend in your own underpants. We'll done you, Can't knock you for standing up for your family. Kudos
But neither your knowledge on refrigeration or your inflated ego cut the mustard with me .To be honest I couldn't give a flying ****.
For what it's worth I'm a lot bigger looking when you're looking up from the flat of your back.
I'm sure you are aware size counts for nothing in a street fight.
But 22yrs of mugendo ,19yrs of Kyokushin and 13 yrs of Muay Thai certainly do.
I'd much rather be called a coward than a ****ing bellend.
Idle threats mean nowt to me.
You want to carry on your keyboard warrior campaign, knock yourself out ,but at least have the dignity to take the replies on board.
BTW we can all plagiarize if the need arises.
Oh with regard to the Big Bob thing weather you are a giver or a receiver ,that's up to you !!!

Cheers

Stu

[Grizzly]

Stu!
I heard it was your charges that were criminal!
Only joking I guess the holiday feeling has worn off.
Hopefully the working away is a good omen?
I have been doing the same all week in Cornwall (which is nice!) Sadly in a fish processing factory.
Only to be told Friday we have been awarded a contract in a chicken processing factory.
Enough to put one off their food.
I can't speak for others but this hot weather has us all running around and busy!
Musn't grumble!

Have a Guinness and raise a glass to those of us that know what we are doing!
Grizzly

[stufus]

Will do Grizzly ,

You know me I'm a bit of a C.S.I Can't . Stand . Idiots

I'd imagine all 6'3 of the OP is currently sweating ,while trying to come up with a witty or most probably abusive reply.
Gives me something to do of a Sunday afternoon.

Cheers

Stu

[rjsinoz]

When your on your knees you'll no the difference
Hey ask all your friend on the website wh[o sounds like the ****** in the last 5 post and thats comparing you with me ha have a think about that answer go on big kung fu man
And grizzly if this moron Carries on like this how good could he possibly be at anything....
Show me one statement.t besides the sheet metal question which I got wrong

[mad fridgie]

I think there is non condensables in this thread "head pressure is rising"

[Grizzly]

Sorry for the cards you have been dealt in the past.
But we all have issues of some sort and believe me.

If you wish to ever survive this personalised tirade of your making.
You need to realise that We help each other where we can and don't dis others if at all possible!
My friends on here have in the past been very helpful!


So like you say you had good reason for your past actions.

May I point out that there are many that may well be able to help you in the future.
But tell me why given your present responses, why they should.
If you don't like the party Leave!
Or raise a 4x and chill!

Grizzly

[mad fridgie]

Hi Ryan,

I did take it as compliment, not that i am after the glory or the insults.

There was difference between the 2 questions, the second being definable, and at that stage have feel on your knowledge,
your first question/statement because it was related to specific data was not definable, as the data could have been wrong. This then becomes a technical discussion then floats through various subjects, you will find on this site these do not need to become aggressive, even if opinions differ, as they should!
It would seem you have some level feel and passion for the industry (as most do on this forum), so I ask you to follow my kids advice "take a chill pill"

[stufus]

Sweating a bit there Ryan ???
I don't recall actually saying anyone was raped !!
Maybe it was just the way you interpreted it , a bit like the advice the other posters offered you , you interpreted that to suit your own end.
Now really ,come on , do you think the man who chose to stab someone three times is in any sort of position to accuse others of being a cowards.
And don't worry about my ability ,I'm well able to hold my own.
The jury is still out on your's .
But you are keeping me amused at the moment.

Surely you can do better than that??

Cheers
Stu

[The MG Pony]

I ran a server with what I called script skiddies like you, oh how they bragged of how they'd hack my server and erase it, crash it, put a viruse on it, and it did tend to lend me much joy of leting them into a VM and let them think they succeded just so I could ban them again.

So that was my own low end lazy day hobby, here you are dealing with a real place, if you even had a net connection by the end of it I'd be suprised

Lay off the glue / refrigerent / petrol / beer / self ritious delusions and sit back and get a clue, you are digging faster then we can lower the ladder for ya!

perhaps it is time to go live up a mountain for a few years and reflect on your life! for me it was a refreshing experiance all 5 yeras of it with just my dogs and my tools and precious little ells!

[MikeHolm]

An entertaining post to be sure but all I can say is.....Thank god I'm pure........(LOL)

Ryan, hopefully some day life will teach you some humility, I think you would benefit from it.

[frank]

I've never known a thread where so many Mods have had to intervene so much :eek:

Congrats to the posters for showing such restraint. :D

[install monkey]

it it going to be a sticky thread?? haha

I've never known a thread where so many Mods have had to intervene so much :eek:

Congrats to the posters for showing such restraint. :D

[stufus]

I've never known a thread where so many Mods have had to intervene so much :eek:

Congrats to the posters for showing such restraint. :D
Cheers Frank

You know me, Pillar of the community .

But you could have left the toothpick comment in , some of my best work was that one.

Must say I'm a little disappointed that "Big Bob" stood me up today.

Suppose we'll have to wait for the "Next big thing " to show up and enlighten us all.

Cheers

Stu

[The MG Pony]

wondering if he gave up or was given a forced vacation?

Either way I'd give my left nut to get back up on the mountain, was so peace full and satisfying to see what you can achieve with nothing other then a pic axe and shuvel, a good riffle or bow for your food the streams chattering you asleep, the nice hum of the hydroturbine you build.

Amazing the perspective it can give you of life. Think I am going to cuddle with my dogs and watch a movie now! cheeres all and remember, life is a journy not a race so stop running and smell the flowers, they wont all ways be there!

cheeres all and raise a glass to yer fellow fridgies even if they be a prick and two glasses if they be not!

[Doug30293]

152 posts on a saturation physics thought experiment, and much (most) of it was not in the least related to saturation physics.

You are a patient and knowledgeable bunch of fellows, but I sure hope you all agree never to talk about sports.:)

[chillerman2006]

without reading pages of comments where am sure the answer already is

supermarket fridge what a strange creature

no equilibrium, pressures/temps/mass flow bouncing about like yoyo's

but from hands on checks I find subcooled liquid in bottom of reciever with a saturated vapour on top

Yes refrigerant in 2 states in same vessel

whilst the refrigerant has flow it can exist in 2 different states within the same vessel

R's xChillerman

[rjsinoz]

without reading pages of comments where am sure the answer already is

supermarket fridge what a strange creature

no equilibrium, pressures/temps/mass flow bouncing about like yoyo's

but from hands on checks I find subcooled liquid in bottom of reciever with a saturated vapour on top

Yes refrigerant in 2 states in same vessel

whilst the refrigerant has flow it can exist in 2 different states within the same vessel

R's xChillerman

Read the full forum Einstein someone posted why its not a saturated vapour and fyi equilibrium of saturated vapour means liquid leaving into vapour state equals vapour returning into liquid state if its not the same rat the liquid is evaporating into a gaseous vapour not saturated vapour

[1mikeefc1]

Read the full forum Einstein someone posted why its not a saturated vapour and fyi equilibrium of saturated vapour means liquid leaving into vapour state equals vapour returning into liquid state if its not the same rat the liquid is evaporating into a gaseous vapour not saturated vapour



Again a prime example of rudeness at its best. Why you are still allowed on this forum amazes me.

[rjsinoz]

Again a prime example of rudeness at its best. Why you are still allowed on this forum amazes me.

I agree....

[chillerman2006]

Read the full forum Einstein someone posted why its not a saturated vapour and fyi equilibrium of saturated vapour means liquid leaving into vapour state equals vapour returning into liquid state if its not the same rat the liquid is evaporating into a gaseous vapour not saturated vapour

hey boy

if you ever in the uk look me up & I'll teach you fridge and manners as your in desperate need of both

I have a spare postage stamp where you can right your full understanding so far

so f*** y**

[rjsinoz]

hey boy

if you ever in the uk look me up & I'll teach you fridge and manners as your in desperate need of both

I have a spare postage stamp where you can right your full understanding so far

so f*** y**
Haha old man

[stufus]

What's happening Big Bob ???
I take it The Blue Oyster is closed today.
Still a complete twat I see!!
Cheers
Stu

[rjsinoz]

Again a prime example of rudeness at its best. Why you are still allowed on this forum amazes me.

ha look i got 1 point for rep power

[stufus]

ha look i got 1 point for rep power

Rep power=0 PROVE ME WRONG!!!
Cheers
Stu

[rjsinoz]

Rep power=0 PROVE ME WRONG!!!
Cheers
Stu

ah well its that brain who took the points of me.

I think Ron Jeremy said it best, as to what brain can go and do.

hey stu feel like a sandwich mate, ive got a big one for you over here in oz....

[rjsinoz]

Rep power=0 PROVE ME WRONG!!!
Cheers
Stu10635

thought what is this guys problem then i realised one he is irish and two look at the **** hole he lives in and 3 his kids are drunk

[The MG Pony]

You must be a miserable sod to work with if this is the attitude you carry off on in real life. why I even bother to try with you is beyond my comprehension, being I'm not a masochist! I guess my forgiving side wants to help any I can but by Thor you have gon past the reasonable!

[stufus]

10635

thought what is this guys problem then i realised one he is irish and two look at the **** hole he lives in and 3 his kids are drunk

Funny you should pick that store to post ,thats where I buy my toothpicks!!!!
You really struggle with the put downs Bob, one of my drunk kids could do better.
Want to get a reaction out of me ,you will have to up your game,you knob jockey.
Cheers
Stu

[jdunc2301]

<img src="http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10635"/>

thought what is this guys problem then i realised one he is irish and two look at the **** hole he lives in and 3 his kids are drunk

So rjsinoz your obviously a right flappy c@@t.....

[jdunc2301]

Just cause your a big man

10638

[Brian_UK]

That's it, enough is enough.