Help Please: R-12 or R-22

[Philco]

Hi,

I have received conflicting information by two local
refrigerator repair shops. I have a very old Philco refrigerator probably made
around 1950. It still works fine but is a low on ***** and needs some added.

One repair shop said R-12 is what it needs, the other shop said
R-22 is what it needs. I don't know who to believe?
I have looked all around the compressor for a tag but
haven't found anything. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[phil68]

I'm guessing that a fridge of this vintage has got a belt-drive compressor? Firstly the fridge should be leak tested before putting any more gas in, it may just be leakage past the compressor shaft seal which was normal on open drive compressors back then. Also a complete fresh charge should be put in after evacuating the system with a vacuum pump & the filter drier changed also for long-term reliability. Is there not a tag anywhere else on the fridge giving details?
It's more than likely R12, but as R12 is now out of use as it's a CFC, the alternative is R409a. Some fridges of that era used Sulphur Dioxide too, so you really need to find a tag.

[Philco]

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my post.

I just finished looking around the compressor again and
found one tag which gives the model/serial #:

Philco Corp.
Serial # 3091293
Model: MRG

[phil68]

Sorry, can't glean any info from that & a search on the web doesn't show anything up. Are there any tags inside the fridge?
1950 eh? Blimey I thought my 16 year old Indesit was doing well:)

[Philco]

I can't find any other tags at all. I don't see a belt on
the compressor but that may not be what you mean.
I have no knowledge about compressors.
It could be late 40's to 1950. I know its approximate
age because it was my grandfathers.

[Philco]

Hey... I took a few pictures of the fridge and compressor.
Don't know if this will be of any help but can't hurt.

I appreciate the help guys...



http://66.246.220.20/mystuff/fridge4.jpg
http://66.246.220.20/mystuff/fridge3.jpg
http://66.246.220.20/mystuff/fridge2.jpg
http://66.246.220.20/mystuff/fridge1.jpg

[Philco]

As you can see from the freezer pic it has a small ice
ball in there. It just doesn't have enough juice to get
cold. The fridge doesn't leak at all while the power is on.
It has been running for several years without any problems.
But my breaker flipped off while I was out of town and
it did leak while the power was off. Its done that twice
now, it only leaks when the power is off for extended
periods of time. I am going to have that problem addressed
when I decide which shop to take it to. But the two shops
are telling me two different things, one says r12 the other
r22. I am afraid if I pick the wrong shop they will destroy
the compressor by putting in the wrong type *****.

[Brian_UK]

Hey Philco, that's some kind of classic there, that's for sure !!

I think a possible leak point is the linetap valve fitted to the spiral pipework above the comressor (unless it's only just been fitted ??).

These have a small O-ring as a seal and it tends to fail over time. When you get the repairs done have that removed and replaced by a brazed access point.

P.S. Like the fridge contents:-
Jack Daniels and Coke ! :) :cool:

[phil68]

WOW! The compressor looks like an early hermetic (the motor & mechanical parts are sealed within the case) as on modern fridges & not belt drive as I first thought it would be. It's done unbelievably well to last 50 or 60 years. These days it's exceptional to see 15 years from a compressor on a domestic fridge, even less on the newer non-CFCs. From what you say it sounds like the leak is on the low pressure side of the system (that's figuratively speaking because when running the low side will be above atmospheric pressure) as when off the low side pressure rises as it equalises with the high side & the increased pressure will exacerbate a leak. I can see what we call a line-tap valve on the pipe above the compressor -that's what we use to access sealed systems for diagnosing & recharging with a pressure gauge. These line-tap valves are notorious for leaking after time as the 'O' ring seals on them deteriate. It's probably that leaking or if you're very unlucky there's a leak on the low side somewhere. A good repair shop will replace this valve with what we call a Schraeder stub that is much less likely to leak over time.
I'm 99% sure it'll be R12 that it's on, but as it's no longer available the alternative R409a will have to be used. R22 is generally used for airconditioning in buildings & I've never heard of it being used in domestic refrigeration applications unless anybody else knows different?

[Philco]

Thanks so much for the info Phil68!

I don't believe the problem is the line tap because of
whats happened over the past few years.
Here is the time line of events

I got the fridge about 6 years ago from my Grandfathers
shed.

It would not cool but the compressor was working.
I took it to a shop for a work over. They got it working
and delivered it to my house.

It worked fine for about a year until I decided to defrost
it. I turned off the power and let it sit a couple days to
give it a good cleaning.
When I turned it back on it wouldn't get cold, it would
cool but only to about 55 degrees.

So I took it back to the same shop. It was at this point
they installed the line tap and re-charged it with *****.
I picked it up and never turned off the power again.
I would just use a hair dryer to defrost it while the power
was on. About 3 years went by with no problems.

Then I went out of town and my breaker box flipped a
breaker, the one my fridge was on. The fridge was without power
for about 72 hours. When I got home and turned the
power back on the fridge would not cool past about 55 degrees.
The exact same thing that happened a few years earlier
when the power was turned off for a extended period
of time.

So from what you said I'm guessing the leak is on the
low pressure side of the system? Is that something
a repair shop can fix with this type of compressor?

Thanks again! I'm going to go with the guy who said R12.

[chillin out]

LOL

Check out the last picture.

I take it you have put the pieces of board there to help cut down the noise?

Are you sure its sog and not under condensing?

Chillin:) :)

[Philco]

No I haven't put any board in there. That's not board, its
some kind of insulation material, and it appears to be
original. Only thing I've done is paint the old girl maroon.
The compressor hardly makes any noise at all, it you get
real close you can hear a slight puring noise, but that's it.

When its fully charged I have to keep the thermostat on
about 5 (half way point). If I turn it up it will freeze everything
in the fridge.

I read on another web page that these old units need
between 4 and 8 ounces of *****. Does that sound about
right to you guys?

[chillyhamster]

is there a sploge of coloured paint on the compressor body, pale or light blue would indicate R12. Cannot remember R22 being ever used on domestic refrigeration. Red and dark green paint means run away fast. (methyl chloride) with no known alternatives.

[Philco]

I haven't seen any paint on the compressor at all.
But I know for a fact its *****, I remember the last guy
who charged it saying something like "Ah this uses the
old *****...".
To bad he isn't around anymore for me to call.

But from what folks here have said I'm feeling very confident
its R12. The guy who told me R22 said something like:
"R12 is only for old automobile air conditioners, R22 is what
you need." So I'm starting to think he didn't know what
he was talking about.

[chillin out]

Some leaks are smaller than a nit on a fleas tit.
LOL

Havent heard that one before.

Chillin:) :)

[phil68]

I haven't seen any paint on the compressor at all.
But I know for a fact its *****, I remember the last guy
who charged it saying something like "Ah this uses the
old *****...".
To bad he isn't around anymore for me to call.

But from what folks here have said I'm feeling very confident
its R12. The guy who told me R22 said something like:
"R12 is only for old automobile air conditioners, R22 is what
you need." So I'm starting to think he didn't know what
he was talking about.
Yep, the guy who told you R22 is definitely talking out of his chuff, go with the guy who said R12. Only he'll be putting in the alternative, which is R409a. Also get him to change the line-tap valve for a Schraeder valve. Let us know how you get on:)

[Philco]

Will do...

I've got her going in the shop tomorrow. I'll let yall know
how it turns out. Thanks so much for all your help fellows.

[stevo]

Thanks so much for the info Phil68!

I don't believe the problem is the line tap because of
whats happened over the past few years.
Here is the time line of events

I got the fridge about 6 years ago from my Grandfathers
shed.

It would not cool but the compressor was working.
I took it to a shop for a work over. They got it working
and delivered it to my house.

It worked fine for about a year until I decided to defrost
it. I turned off the power and let it sit a couple days to
give it a good cleaning.
When I turned it back on it wouldn't get cold, it would
cool but only to about 55 degrees.

So I took it back to the same shop. It was at this point
they installed the line tap and re-charged it with *****.
I picked it up and never turned off the power again.
I would just use a hair dryer to defrost it while the power
was on. About 3 years went by with no problems.

Then I went out of town and my breaker box flipped a
breaker, the one my fridge was on. The fridge was without power
for about 72 hours. When I got home and turned the
power back on the fridge would not cool past about 55 degrees.
The exact same thing that happened a few years earlier
when the power was turned off for a extended period
of time.

So from what you said I'm guessing the leak is on the
low pressure side of the system? Is that something
a repair shop can fix with this type of compressor?

Thanks again! I'm going to go with the guy who said R12.
I would ask the shop to pressure test system using dry nitrogen, and spray diluted fairy liquid round suspect joints, this should reveal leak for repair before evacuation & re-charge. you can use R413a (R49) as a dropin replacement for R12.

[afeef]

hi
all refrigerators i have seen in my life is R12
so your is R 12 also
dont be affraied ,,,charge with R12
thanks