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Grizzly
27-06-2013, 06:32 PM
Can anyone advise of the latest understanding?
Once the handling of R22 becomes illegal here in the UK (Jan 2015?)
What if anything will a engineer be allowed to do on any remaining R22 plants?
R22 was independent of Fgas but now I am not sure?

I don't know about anyone else, but I have customers who aren't going to have converted to another refrigerant come the cut off!

Will I be allowed to work on a customers Plant?
Grizzly

1mikeefc1
27-06-2013, 06:58 PM
I was under the impression that using recovered and clean 22 was allowed but would be eventually phased out due to the cost of it having to go through this process.

Grizzly
27-06-2013, 07:07 PM
As far as I understand Using any 22 after 31st Dec 2014 or is it 2015?
Will not be allowed.

So what works can be carried out after the cut off.
Grizzly

Brian_UK
27-06-2013, 07:45 PM
I wonder whether it will be like the R12 phase out when you could work on the plant but not put any gauges on it. If you put gauges on then all you could do was remove the gas.

frank
27-06-2013, 07:52 PM
What are the chances of being caught after the deadline?

I know of persons who will remain nameless that are still buying fridge gas from the wholesalers and working on kit without any qualifications.

Policing the trade seems to be reliant on snitches...but I'm no snitch, just someone who keeps paying for the re-training and registration certificates, which at least keeps people off the dole. :(

Tayters
27-06-2013, 07:59 PM
R22 was independent of Fgas but now I am not sure?



R22 is covered under pretty similar rules as F-Gases.

F-Gas covers Flourinated gases the ODS regulations covers ozone depleting refrigerants. Some ODS refrigerants also contain Flourine so the are classed as an F-Gas (R408A for example) otherwise the same leak testing, log books etc apply.

In the case of R22 systems, after the 2015 deadline you can work on it but can't use new R22R to recharge it. You can recover system charge to a bottle, fix it, then put it back in which you might do if you cant pump a part of the circuit down.
As it is covered under the same sort of guff as the F-Gas malarky then you still need to log book, leak testing, blah, blah, blah.

Have a butchers here at page 7

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/fgas/documents/fgassupport-rac3.pdf


Cheers,
Andy.

Grizzly
27-06-2013, 08:43 PM
Thanks Andy.
Quote:-
5.2. Phase-out of recycled and reclaimed HCFCs
Article 11.4 and 11.5. Applicable from 31st December 2014 to all sizes of RAC system.
After 2014 recycled and reclaimed HCFCs cannot be used for plant servicing and maintenance. This applies to all recycled HCFCs, even if purchased before the deadline.
The ban on the "use" of HCFCs specifically means use for servicing and maintenance. It will remain legal to continue using RAC equipment containing HCFCs beyond the phase-out dates providing they do not require maintenance that involves the servicing and maintenance of the HCFCs in the system.
#
So basically if their is a leak , you repair it?
But what do you do say if you want to recover the gas from a part of the system to repair it?
Or say you want to change liquid line filters!
Are you allowed to pump down and say use a recovery rig to pump out the filter assembly?

It's quite specific in what it seems to say, which leaves me to think that some of the large cold store or Ice rinks are going to have an interesting time.
Albeit borrowed time!
Frank you are correct about the little guy that bends the rules, that's life I am afraid.
But for the rest of us it's not an option.
Which is why I am asking the questions now.

For I know some that are not in a position to replace the refrigerant or renew their kit for around 12 to 18 months after the cut off.

Which leaves them dreadfully exposed!
Grizzly

Tayters
27-06-2013, 08:53 PM
So basically if their is a leak , you repair it?
But what do you do say if you want to recover the gas from a part of the system to repair it?
Or say you want to change liquid line filters!
Are you allowed to pump down and say use a recovery rig to pump out the filter assembly?



Looks like it according to the blurb on page 8:



Gas recovery

 
Article 22.1. Applicable from 2010 to all sizes of RAC system.
If an ODS refrigerant needs to be removed from a system (e.g. to gain access to part of a system for maintenance or during system decommissioning at the end of life) it must be properly recovered by certified personnel. After recovery the refrigerant can be reused or sent for reclamation, recycling or destruction.

hookster
27-06-2013, 08:58 PM
I wonder when Europe finally accepts it is broke and cant replace according to regulation an extension will be issued.


8. By way of derogation from Articles*5 and*6, the Commis*sion may, following a request by a competent authority of a Mem*ber State and in accordance with the management procedure referred to in Article*25(2), authorise a time-limited exemption to allow the use and placing on the market of hydrochlorofluoro* carbons and of products and equipment containing or relying on hydrochlorofluorocarbons where it is demonstrated that, for a particular use, technically and economically feasible alternative substances or technologies are not available or cannot be used.
This exemption may not be authorised for a period which extends beyond 31*December 2019.

r.bartlett
27-06-2013, 09:25 PM
What are the chances of being caught after the deadline?

I know of persons who will remain nameless that are still buying fridge gas from the wholesalers and working on kit without any qualifications.

Policing the trade seems to be reliant on snitches...but I'm no snitch, just someone who keeps paying for the re-training and registration certificates, which at least keeps people off the dole. :(Frank you have a misplaced sense of honour. Not being a snitch when you know something illegal is happening is effectively condoning them. I myself have reported several who I knew were non compliant and I make no apologies for doing so and will do it at every available opportunity I get. You owe the trade which has given you the lifestyle and the engineers who work for you the duty to email defra their details.

goshen
28-06-2013, 05:17 AM
I wonder when Europe finally accepts it is broke and cant replace according to regulation an extension will be issued.
Hi
i agree with hookster 100% things are moving to slow in accordance to regulation , 2015 is around the corner and r-22 is still very common and still being imported from china !

Grizzly
28-06-2013, 07:14 AM
Apex,
For Someone who professes to be green, you are ill informed.
Given the above in blue. which I feel is a p*ss take.
(We are not on here for self promotion, obviously you feel different!)

The value which does exist is irrelevant to my question.
I am asking for advice from someone better informed than me on the workings of the legislation,
here in the U.K.

You may well have similar issues which would make another interesting post, pertaining to your part of the world.
Grizzly

Quality
28-06-2013, 07:00 PM
I may not be on the same page but R22 will be gone come the end of 2015. It will cause a major impact on companies that still have no plan on replacement (there are 1000`s) and those that do but can not afford it.The current alternatives are a token jester to real plant that has a proper demand. Lets all wait and see what happens.

Grizzly
28-06-2013, 07:32 PM
Lets all wait and see what happens.

Thanks my learn-ed friend!
Nice to here from you, even though you are telling me what I did not want to here.
It would seem the we are all confused or ill informed.
It is Midnight on the 31st of December that the Ban comes into place.
So as of the 1st Jan 2015.
Tough!

What am I to tell our customers?
Sorry I cannot work on your plant, let me rephrase that.
I can work on it provided I don't touch anything that has the potential to release the refrigerant inside!

As some have said.
It is going to be interesting.
Grizzly

seanm83
10-07-2013, 03:07 PM
I've started to try to increase awareness about it since the beginning of this year. Some customers are very concerned about any cost implications, especially if they replace the unit.

I've been trying to explain it simply to them. Obviously, trying to alert them to the implications if they opt for leave in place. Don't know if anyone will find this useful but found this infographic which explains the options in simple terms.

http://www.icschillerservice.co.uk/do-you-have-your-r22-phase-out-action-plan-set-up-yet/07/2013/

Awareness definitely seems to be biggest issue, I agree with Grizzly, it's certainly going to be interesting!!