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mac_J
26-05-2013, 12:37 PM
Would like to know which is the best replacement for R22

The systems where the R22 is being used are for milk cooling

All comments and advice appreciated

Regards

nh3

install monkey
26-05-2013, 12:38 PM
r22r.......:p

Sandro Baptista
28-05-2013, 10:51 AM
If the system is of small capacity ant without many branches then maybe a Isceon/drop in will suite for for you.

If it's a large system why not R507/R404A? Pay attention to the electric motors (since it will absorb more shaft power). Also you have to change oil, TEVs, elastometers/gaskets/o'rings. Also liquid line will increase the velocity (higher mass flow for app. the same liquid density).

monkey spanners
28-05-2013, 02:53 PM
Most new bmt's are on R404A, you would need to change the oil to poe and also chnage the expansion valve and orifice.

I am looking into R407F which according to the tech guy from A-Gas would be a better match for R22, (less liquid line velocity issues)though it will still need an oil change and possible expansion valve changes.

Also, take note that R22 makes o ring seals swell up (solenoids, oil sight glasses, comp terminals, etc) and once you replace it with something else there is great potential for future leaks through the now shrunken seals.

mac_J
29-05-2013, 08:03 AM
Have any of you guys, got any experience of using DuPont™ ISCEON® MO99™ (R-438A) as a replacement for R22. DuPont maintains this is the most suitable replacement. See details, which follow, according to DuPont.

DuPont™ ISCEON® MO99™ (R-438A) is the most versatile R-22 replacement refrigerant in the ISCEON® product line. It combines R-22 pressure-enthalpy characteristics with mineral oil compatibility in a unique HFC refrigerant that can be used in R-22 replacement over a wide range of evaporator temperatures.

As an R-22 replacement, ISCEON® MO99™ may be used in a wide range of applications and has advantages over other R-22 replacements. ISCEON® MO99™ has been designed to closely match the pressure, temperature, enthalpy, and mass flow properties of R-22, for a seamless R-22 replacement. ISCEON® MO99™ has a 42% lower global warming potential (GWP) than R-404A.

ISCEON® MO99™ matches R-22 in terms of capacity and efficiency in most systems, but with a significantly lower discharge temperature which may prolong life of the compressor. It’s compatible with traditional and new lubricants, providing quick, cost-effective R-22 replacements and can be topped off during service without removing the entire refrigerant charges.

For most R-22 systems, when retrofitting to ISCEON® MO99™ all you need to do is recover the R-22, replace critical seals, charge refrigerant, restart and monitor for leaks, label the system with an ISCEON® MO99™ retrofit label, and you’re done. R-22 replacement can’t get any easier. The peel-off ISCEON® MO99™ retrofit labels are found on the bi-lingual side of a 25-lb disposable cylinder

Sandro Baptista
29-05-2013, 08:53 AM
mac_J,

I already had ear about it but I have no experience of using that.

dogma
29-05-2013, 11:59 AM
Most new bmt's are on R404A, you would need to change the oil to poe and also chnage the expansion valve and orifice.

I am looking into R407F which according to the tech guy from A-Gas would be a better match for R22, (less liquid line velocity issues)though it will still need an oil change and possible expansion valve changes.

Also, take note that R22 makes o ring seals swell up (solenoids, oil sight glasses, comp terminals, etc) and once you replace it with something else there is great potential for future leaks through the now shrunken seals.

I'd be looking at R407F too. Unless you can retrofit with hydrocarbons where you are legally.... then I'd give R290 a red hot go. :)

Regards

Dogma

RBM
29-05-2013, 10:23 PM
R427 is promoted as r22 replacement - I think its a drop in but don't know much about it

Sandro Baptista
30-05-2013, 02:04 PM
R427 is promoted as r22 replacement - I think its a drop in but don't know much about it

With this refrigerant is mandatory to change the oil to poliolester (POE). I had ear about a case of success using this refrigerant.

Coorsman777
30-05-2013, 05:34 PM
We just did our first R22 to R407F conversion and it seems to be working well. Only required on oil change to 80% POE and no expansion valve changes. Capacity seems to be close to the same with lower discharge temps. Do have to watch leaky seals and gaskets though!

Sandro Baptista
30-05-2013, 10:16 PM
We just did our first R22 to R407F conversion and it seems to be working well. Only required on oil change to 80% POE and no expansion valve changes. Capacity seems to be close to the same with lower discharge temps. Do have to watch leaky seals and gaskets though!

Thanks for the info.

tbowes
02-06-2013, 11:21 PM
When changing from R22, it is a given (with me) that the O rings/seals get changed anyway, while the system is down. Saves double handling later.

tbirdtbird
19-06-2013, 06:24 AM
Literature here in states says 422-B (ICOR) is drop- in. No oil changes needed

Sandro Baptista
19-06-2013, 02:54 PM
Sometimes even for a drop in an oil change for POE is need, specially when the plant "very branched".

StarCat
18-08-2013, 04:09 PM
I have solid results with R417A, also called MO-59 in refrigeration and AC both.
ON the contrary, I have had negative experience with MO-99 and stopped my experiments with it fully.
MO-99 has some unusual and very bad tendencies with respect to oil, and will under certain conditions tend to carry oil very quickly out of the compressor. THere are some highly contradictory suggestions at large which revolve around the oil issue which include adding a certain percentage of POE. This gas may work for new production equipment, but I strongly advise staying away with respect to retrofit. There are definitely others that have noticed the oil related issues and I would not expect them to simply go away.

THE DUDE
19-08-2013, 11:55 PM
Id look at R-407 A or F. I have used both in retrofits. Both performed very well. Im not sure what type of Evap you have, if its flooded id look at R-507.

knightlight
22-08-2013, 03:36 AM
the term "drop in" is a misnomer. There is no drop in as such. The term drop in assumes that the user will be topping off refrigerant 22. Since all replacements are blends you will actually be creating a new refrigerant.
what that refrigerant is, well that is anyone's guess. Some replacements are being marketed as drop in add to refrigerant 22 applications but from the training I have received from refrigerant manufacturers this is a very bad idea. Another thing to consider is the ambient temperatures being used when the comparison of replacement refrigerant temp. and pressures compared to refrigerant 22. In other words in ideal conditions any replacement is a good one. The problem comes from the fact that we don't experience 80 degree days all summer. If we did the replacements lower capacities and efficiencies would never be noticed. In over sized systems these problems still may not be noticeable.(ie. a 42000 btu unit installed where a 36k would be more than enough) because the system already has more capacity than is needed. The reality is most companies are running load calculations and sizing according to load requirements. I have even witnessed situations where dealers sold undersized units so they could quote a lower price to get the job. One case of that is a very good friend of mine who was told he was getting a 42k system and for years thought this was correct until he and I became friends and I found that the contractor had installed a 30k system instead. One of the main problems with replacements is when the temperatures exceed 90+ degrees at these temps the replacements capacity deficiencies play a major roll. In some cases it is like removing a 36k unit and replacing it with a 30k unit or somewhere in between. Another thing to consider is the fact that most (not all) replacements have hydrocarbons (propane, isobutene) added to aid in oil circulation as blends are not compatible with mineral or AB oils and hydrocarbons have an affinity to mineral oil. It mixes well with mineral oil and does not like to separate from it. That is why it works so well as a oil movement catalyst. This has also in some lab test proven to be a fire hazard is some cases where a system has had a leak for some time and been recharged repeatedly until someone finally fixed the leak. The replacements that do not have hydrocarbons are still blends and can not move the oil though the system creating oil logs and poor oil return. This can be overcome to some extent by adding POE about 5-10% of total oil charge. The POE is miscible with the blends and the oil can return to the compressor. You still have the replacements capacity issues to overcome. With any replacement there is still the swollen seal issue as mentioned by an earlier poster. Refrigerant 22 is one of the best and most versatile refrigerants made for many reasons. It actually migrates into seals and gaskets causing them to swell and form a very good seal in these locations. When refrigerant 22 has been removed from the system the seal and gaskets release the trapped refrigerant 22 and shrink causing refrigerant leaks. Another thing to look out from are the replacements claiming that it is better than refrigerant 22, (colder, more efficient, more capacity ect.) because in two cases that I know of the replacement is 98% hydrocarbon (propane) and illegal to use in most if not all states.
Now the question, what is the best replacement for refrigerant 22? R407c for medium temp and a/c retrofits and R407a for low and medium temp refrigeration applications. In both cases the properties of refrigerant 407 is close enough that the refrigerant 22 metering devices are the same. Refrigerant 407c and 407a are a closer match to refrigerant 22 than any other replacement but still is not as good a refrigerant as refrigerant 22. It is however around 98% match to refrigerant 22. Which replacement to use will need to be determined by what you are trying to do. If your customer wants a new system but needs time to get their finances together then most any replacement will buy them some time. Except the hydrocarbon replacements that I mentioned before. Although propane is and excellent refrigerant it also requires specialized equipment to use it safely. If you are in an industrial/ commercial environment and looking for a long term replacement or have a customer who is looking for a long term replacement that doesn't require an equipment change refrigerant 407a 0r 407c is the answer. One example is grocery store chains that have refrigerant 22 systems and equipment replacement would be extremely expensive. In these cases retrofitting to refrigerants 407a or c would be the best way to go. Some of you may remember the way the EPA went after the bakeries some years back and in some cases at that time it was more prudent for the bakeries to close than to replace equipment (about the only choice they had then) or continue paying huge fines to the EPA. I bring it up only because grocery stores are the new bakery for the EPA. So if you are working for or have a contract with a grocery chain this would be a good time to discuss retrofits with them. Just remember that they need a long term solution and capacity is critical in refrigeration applications so I would recommend the refrigerant 407 family in this case. This will also require gasket and seal replacement so keep this in mind as well if you want to pursue this market. When all things are considered this last part needs to be done with any refrigerant 22 replacement. With refrigerant 407 a or c replacing oil with POE is highly recommended. Side note: some or all of you have heard that you should never mix mineral and POE oils. This was true at the beginning because of the products being used on the compressor winding process. At that time paraffin wax was being used and would make it's way through out the system and when POE was introduced it would strip the lines, coils, and other devices clean of the wax and carry it right back to the compressor. This is not the case any longer and refrigerant engineers and manufacturers now say that adding some POE to a system to allow for oil return when using blends is acceptable and in fact it was a refrigerant engineer who recommended this approach. Another side note: I manage a wholesale HVAC/R distributor branch and can provide most ot the replacements mentioned here and in other posts but I always try to provide my customer base with as much of this type of information as possible so they can make a choice that best suites them and their customer. I hope this my first post is helpful and informative.

knightlight
22-08-2013, 03:37 AM
the term "drop in" is a misnomer. There is no drop in as such. The term drop in assumes that the user will be topping off refrigerant 22. Since all replacements are blends you will actually be creating a new refrigerant.
what that refrigerant is, well that is anyone's guess. Some replacements are being marketed as drop in add to refrigerant 22 applications but from the training I have received from refrigerant manufacturers this is a very bad idea. Another thing to consider is the ambient temperatures being used when the comparison of replacement refrigerant temp. and pressures compared to refrigerant 22. In other words in ideal conditions any replacement is a good one. The problem comes from the fact that we don't experience 80 degree days all summer. If we did the replacements lower capacities and efficiencies would never be noticed. In over sized systems these problems still may not be noticeable.(ie. a 42000 btu unit installed where a 36k would be more than enough) because the system already has more capacity than is needed. The reality is most companies are running load calculations and sizing according to load requirements. I have even witnessed situations where dealers sold undersized units so they could quote a lower price to get the job. One case of that is a very good friend of mine who was told he was getting a 42k system and for years thought this was correct until he and I became friends and I found that the contractor had installed a 30k system instead. One of the main problems with replacements is when the temperatures exceed 90+ degrees at these temps the replacements capacity deficiencies play a major roll. In some cases it is like removing a 36k unit and replacing it with a 30k unit or somewhere in between. Another thing to consider is the fact that most (not all) replacements have hydrocarbons (propane, isobutene) added to aid in oil circulation as blends are not compatible with mineral or AB oils and hydrocarbons have an affinity to mineral oil. It mixes well with mineral oil and does not like to separate from it. That is why it works so well as a oil movement catalyst. This has also in some lab test proven to be a fire hazard is some cases where a system has had a leak for some time and been recharged repeatedly until someone finally fixed the leak. The replacements that do not have hydrocarbons are still blends and can not move the oil though the system creating oil logs and poor oil return. This can be overcome to some extent by adding POE about 5-10% of total oil charge. The POE is miscible with the blends and the oil can return to the compressor. You still have the replacements capacity issues to overcome. With any replacement there is still the swollen seal issue as mentioned by an earlier poster. Refrigerant 22 is one of the best and most versatile refrigerants made for many reasons. It actually migrates into seals and gaskets causing them to swell and form a very good seal in these locations. When refrigerant 22 has been removed from the system the seal and gaskets release the trapped refrigerant 22 and shrink causing refrigerant leaks. Another thing to look out from are the replacements claiming that it is better than refrigerant 22, (colder, more efficient, more capacity ect.) because in two cases that I know of the replacement is 98% hydrocarbon (propane) and illegal to use in most if not all states.
Now the question, what is the best replacement for refrigerant 22? R407c for medium temp and a/c retrofits and R407a for low and medium temp refrigeration applications. In both cases the properties of refrigerant 407 is close enough that the refrigerant 22 metering devices are the same. Refrigerant 407c and 407a are a closer match to refrigerant 22 than any other replacement but still is not as good a refrigerant as refrigerant 22. It is however around 98% match to refrigerant 22. Which replacement to use will need to be determined by what you are trying to do. If your customer wants a new system but needs time to get their finances together then most any replacement will buy them some time. Except the hydrocarbon replacements that I mentioned before. Although propane is and excellent refrigerant it also requires specialized equipment to use it safely. If you are in an industrial/ commercial environment and looking for a long term replacement or have a customer who is looking for a long term replacement that doesn't require an equipment change refrigerant 407a 0r 407c is the answer. One example is grocery store chains that have refrigerant 22 systems and equipment replacement would be extremely expensive. In these cases retrofitting to refrigerants 407a or c would be the best way to go. Some of you may remember the way the EPA went after the bakeries some years back and in some cases at that time it was more prudent for the bakeries to close than to replace equipment (about the only choice they had then) or continue paying huge fines to the EPA. I bring it up only because grocery stores are the new bakery for the EPA. So if you are working for or have a contract with a grocery chain this would be a good time to discuss retrofits with them. Just remember that they need a long term solution and capacity is critical in refrigeration applications so I would recommend the refrigerant 407 family in this case. This will also require gasket and seal replacement so keep this in mind as well if you want to pursue this market. When all things are considered this last part needs to be done with any refrigerant 22 replacement. With refrigerant 407 a or c replacing oil with POE is highly recommended. Side note: some or all of you have heard that you should never mix mineral and POE oils. This was true at the beginning because of the products being used on the compressor winding process. At that time paraffin wax was being used and would make it's way through out the system and when POE was introduced it would strip the lines, coils, and other devices clean of the wax and carry it right back to the compressor. This is not the case any longer and refrigerant engineers and manufacturers now say that adding some POE to a system to allow for oil return when using blends is acceptable and in fact it was a refrigerant engineer who recommended this approach. Another side note: I manage a wholesale HVAC/R distributor branch and can provide most ot the replacements mentioned here and in other posts but I always try to provide my customer base with as much of this type of information as possible so they can make a choice that best suites them and their customer. I hope this my first post is helpful and informative.

StarCat
03-09-2013, 03:04 PM
In response to knightlight, the information of the "efficiency " of the 2 gases 407A and 407C is helpful....but what I must mention is it is not practical or realistic to attempt oil changes in hermetic compressors [fractional or otherwise] that are not designed with mechanical ports and level sight glasses to effect such oil changes. AS thus we are backed into a capacity corner with what I have returned with my field tests so far.
MO99 is a terrible retrofit gas, loaded with " oil " issues!
R417A is easy to use, but my latest test machine is definitely showing a noted capacity loss relative to its former R-22 charge.The only other practical possibility I see currently might be R422D which may not be much better than 417A if any. Yesterday I see yet another strange gas on the net ?R22L?, made possibly in Russia....

After the deviation from " chlorine " ....something that worked well, oil is a big problem.
What really needs to be confronted is the fraudulent science that underlies the whole affair of the forced move away from 12,22 and 502.

Please keep the information coming on this thread.
All the best.

willklaus
12-09-2013, 06:55 AM
anyone of you tried RS-45? It's said to be a best replacement for R22, with similar quality, it requires no major changes to the system. lubricates both poe, mo are fine to use. it's as well called R434A i think.