Car Air Conditioning Leaking

[Click4]

Hi, just wondered if anybody could shed any light or suggestions.

I've got a customer with a Jaguar XKR 4.2 Supercharged.

Almost everything is invisible or inaccessible, low side port access requires removal of part of the inlet manifold, so I've strayed from doing this.

I originally visited, 4 weeks ago... Nitrogen pressure tested it, I pressurised it... Then allowed the pressure to stabilise, as I've found that sometimes as pressure bleeds from high to low side pressure will appear to drop without a leak... So waited for it to stabilise... The pressure held fine.

Used bubble spray on anything I could see, no leaks found.

Vacuumed it down, vacuum pulled down fine and micron reading pulled down to 1500 microns easily.

Vacuum also appeared to hold.

So I really couldn't find a leak, but today I was called back as Aircon wasn't working, when I checked it system was completely empty bar 20g so it had lost 680g in about a month.

Went round it again today in more detail, same as before on leak tests... But this time used an electronic leak detector which is supposed to detect a leak as small as 1/10 oz per year.

Moved it around the pipes and compressor connections and area... Nothing.

Only area it did seem to trigger was when I waved it around the condenser.
But it wasn't a constant detection, it was kinda like.. It would not detect anything then all of a sudden blip for a second then go back to nothing again.

Also noticed some black oily dirty patches at in the top corners.. Which I suspected is where air is rushing from below up between the condenser and gearbox rad (as condenser is sandwiched between a radiator either side... It's in the middle.)

Couldn't see full face or behind condenser because its covered by the rads, all I did was put the detector probe in the gap between.. So the lack of a constant detection and that I know airflow disturbance can cause small triggers of the detector.. As can just covering up the end of the probe. And lack of access to front and rear I was skeptical about taking the detector as evidence of knackered condenser.

So I've shoved some UV dye into the system now, and said I will go back in 1 week.

Will see what happens. Also screwed the high port valve cap down tighter to hopefully eliminate that also.

But if I can't find any UV dye traces and its still lost gas I am drawing a blank.

Reluctant to write off condenser, even though in back of my mind its a likely culprit... Because a condenser isn't something I wanna change on a car that expensive on somebody's driveway.. And they also seem to like jag dealers and genuine parts.

So if I write off the condenser, he takes it to jag and they say condenser is fine or fit a condenser which is genuine plus labour on top... Then it still leaks customer is going to be annoyed.

Just stumped for ideas and wondered if anybody could offer any help or advice.

Thanks.

[install monkey]

evap coil leakin ???- glo stick is great for tricky leaks

[Click4]

evap coil leakin ???- glo stick is great for tricky leaks

What's the best method for checking the evaporator?

The drain points as far as I know are buried right underneath either side of transmission tunnel.

I know it's a possible culprit but I don't automatically assume that part because it doesn't get the road salt and dirt thrown at it.

[install monkey]

hopefully drips of glo stick on the driveway, u say that got whiffs nr the condenser , so hopefully this will show with the glostick- glad i dont do car air con

[Click4]

Ok will try to buy some glo sticks, where can I buy them?

Yep lol cars are a pig sometimes, and I'm quite new to it.

This particular car, it sounds great, it's supposed to be over 400bhp lol so owner loves it.but from mechanical point of view it's rediculas.

Low side port is buried underneath an intake pipe, have to remove the pipe to get to it... Which I don't wanna really do, so been doing everything from high side which isn't ideal either.

Condenser has a rad either side of it so you can't see full face... All you can do is shove probe between the rads, yep I was getting whiffs of refrigerant every now and again I think, but because they are effected by airflow and the fan is running pushing through it it makes detector somewhat unreliable. Only thing which backs it up, was black oily marks either side towards the top, which looked like airflow forcing oil vertically up the condenser... But then because I can't see full face is it just road dirt? Hoping uv dye will confirm that.

Pipes are all but inaccessible also, on original service sheet it had to write limitation and note how inaccessible things are when it came to leak checking.

It's a shame, because guy was pleased I was so comprehensive so wasn't blaming me for it not working, even said after it was like a fridge, coldest id had ever been... Now I'm having problems accurately diagnosing the leak and pinpointing it.

If it was me doing the job, I can pick up a condenser for around £100, and if its not condenser I can pick up the bill for the mistake.

But it's such an expensive car, that somebody's driveway isn't the place to be removing a bonnet... Downside is, genuine condenser is around £400 for that car, then maybe £200 labour if lucky on top in a dealer... And if I'm wrong and it still leaks customer is gonna be annoyed about forking out £600 on a mis-diagnosis.

[install monkey]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMART-CAR-AIR-CONDITIONING-RECHARGE-KIT-LEAK-STOPPER-/300576525245?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item45fbc1cbbd
;)

[charlie patt]

useually condensors on these they are about ninety quid copie but have had issues with fr seal on comps leaking pressure it overnight if it holds pressure the fr seal is shot if its earlier one with the pies on the inner wing the pipes rot inside the insulation if its the later the condensor will be leaking dye dont useually help because they leak between the condensor and rad where you cant sea evaps are not a problem with um just remember some of the superchargers have rear ac and the pipes leak under the bodie to test comp on the ramp pull the condensor pipes off and fit some blanks to pipes if it holds condensor shot but the comps are real problems on these they cant take the heat of the engine ta charlie

[monkey spanners]

Do the condenser fans and hp switch work ok? had a landcruiser that had hp switch fault, suspect the pressure was getting so high (got to 400 psi when we watched it) that an o ring let by but resealed at normal pressures.

[Click4]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMART-CAR-AIR-CONDITIONING-RECHARGE-KIT-LEAK-STOPPER-/300576525245?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item45fbc1cbbd
;)

Might fix it, but I generally dont like leak sealers at all lol, rather find the fault and fix it properly.
Also leak sealers dont do recovery equipment much good either.

[Click4]

useually condensors on these they are about ninety quid copie but have had issues with fr seal on comps leaking pressure it overnight if it holds pressure the fr seal is shot if its earlier one with the pies on the inner wing the pipes rot inside the insulation if its the later the condensor will be leaking dye dont useually help because they leak between the condensor and rad where you cant sea evaps are not a problem with um just remember some of the superchargers have rear ac and the pipes leak under the bodie to test comp on the ramp pull the condensor pipes off and fit some blanks to pipes if it holds condensor shot but the comps are real problems on these they cant take the heat of the engine ta charlie

I was quoted £71 for a pattern part if I can remember, and I would normally change it myself on any other car, would prefer to because if its not the condenser at fault, then I can absorb the cost of replacing it un-necessarily and customer isnt out of pocket for my mis-diagnosis.

Problem is, I dont have access to a garage facility, and the value of the car... so im scared of damaging the paintwork on it, from what I can see bonnet has to come off then radiators come out the top... but putting the bonnet from one of these cars on the customers front lawn will not only probably put fear into the customer lol but also risk damaging it.

Thats why im all the more worried, because if I cannot do it myself then he will likely take it to a jaguar dealer, in which case he will be charged up for a genuine part plus dealer prices which will be a bill in the hundreds.. then if it turns out not to be the condenser customer will be pretty annoyed about my misdiagnosis and may hold me liable for the bill.

didnt know about the issue with compressors leaking so thats another possibility... refrigerant detector didnt pick up anything though around compressor area though, only time it flickered was as if it was getting the odd whiff from around the condenser area.. but couldnt use that as an absolute diagnosis because with the fans running the airflow could also of been interfering with it.

I think this is the later one, as it has the later condenser on it.

like you say rad is infront of it, but I was thinking I could possibly use a mechanics mirror and UV lamp to see right down between the 2.

I think this has rear AC as there are some pipes that vanish underneath around the gearbox tunnel area, I followed the pipes as far as I could and stuck detector up inside the tunnel and it didnt show any signs of leaking, but not 100% as I dont have access to a ramp.

[Click4]

Do the condenser fans and hp switch work ok? had a landcruiser that had hp switch fault, suspect the pressure was getting so high (got to 400 psi when we watched it) that an o ring let by but resealed at normal pressures.

Hi, yep fans are running fine, and pressures all good on high side :) cant comment on low side as its buried underneath one of the intake pipes and only accessible when removing the intake pipe but it should be lower than high side.

[al]

Don't get so bogged down trying to keep the customer happy, you've done what can be done without workshop, if it needs stripping send him off to a dealer, you can offer to come to the dealer when it's stripped, don't be blinded by value of car:)

alec

[Click4]

Don't get so bogged down trying to keep the customer happy, you've done what can be done without workshop, if it needs stripping send him off to a dealer, you can offer to come to the dealer when it's stripped, don't be blinded by value of car:)

alec

Yep, tried to do everything I can possibly do without stripping things down in a workshop, im only a mobile guy.
spent 2 hours on it today trying to find a leak.. and apart from the small whiffs from the condenser area which may of just been the air disturbance from fans running i just drew a complete blank.

lol im quite a worrier and always trying to keep customers happy.

Even phoned back one today to check all was well... that one was a Merc E220, took it to kwik fit, gassed it 1 week later empty... gassed it again, 2 hours later gone... so they called me.

Was able to pinpoint that leak straight away with nitrogen could actually hear it hissing and was blowing bubbles... was a crimped hose joint.. changed it and was fine after, but phoned back today just to see how it was going lol should probably just leave it and assume if it wasnt ok they would call me... but its the habbit of trying to keep customer happy all the time.

will a dealer allow me to go there once its stripped then? never heard of a dealer allowing somebody in to do the work their techs can do :S or have I misunderstood?

value of car has blinded me :( because normally id be like yep fine, I can do that.. strip it down and change the condenser... but because its an expensive car im more worried that if damage occurs doing a job on somebodys drive on a car like that im going to end up with an expensive repair bill.

only started doing this work last year, but have had years of experience working on cars... but because im relatively new to the aircon side of things im still learning what to expect.

[install monkey]

cant wait till ur bentley needs regassing!!:o
Don't get so bogged down trying to keep the customer happy, you've done what can be done without workshop, if it needs stripping send him off to a dealer, you can offer to come to the dealer when it's stripped, don't be blinded by value of car:)

alec

[hyperion]

If OFN or UV dye does not show up the leak, I have successfully used OFN with a 5% hyrdogen mix with a special electronic leak detector. This found a difficult to pinpoint leak on a Merc condenser. It is a bit expensive to buy, but probably worth it in the long run, unless you can persuade the Lokring rep to attend and demonstrate the kit. You will need a lot lower test prssure for the leak to show up.
It is always a major concern if working on expensive motors without the full workshop facilities.
The specialist dealer might not allow you to work on the car in his workshop for insurance reasons, that is if he allows you to attend at all.

[Click4]

How much are the detectors?

I might buy one later on, still building up my tool set, I wanna at some point get crimping and lokring equipment also so I can fabricate pipes and compressor service tools, had to swap a compressor clutch bearing other day and without the puller it's a bugger to get off.

Yep it is a worry, if I can't find the leak with the uv dye I think I will refund part of the regas fee as a good will gesture, then recommend they get a 2nd oppinion from a garage. As I don't wanna commit to a condenser based on cost of replacement.

Just a shame because I know once they go somewhere else chances are as a customer they never come back to you.

[monkey spanners]

Its up to you what you do but i wouldn't refund him anything.

Things it took me a while to learn when going self employed;

I didn't design the machine,its not my fault its broke.
I didn't make the machine, its not my fault its broke.
I didn't buy the machine, its not my fault its broke.
I don't own the machine, its not my fault its broke.
The customer needs to take responsibility for his equipment not you, all you need to take responsibility for is doing the best you can honestly and fairly.
I am not responsible for ensuring it has been serviced and maintained when needed, its not my fault its broke.
A customer is only worth keeping if you are making a profit from their work, it should not cost you to work on their equipment. (though there are some jobs you lose on to stand by your principals)

There are always times when you may chose not to charge for everything, only last week i went to change a fan motor but had the wrong sized blade so didn't charge for the travel on the return trip, But it is my customers choice to run a 30+ year old system where parts are obsolete.

I think the special leak detectors are about £230 from climate center, i am looking into getting one.

[rubybree]

I don't do Auto Air Con, but did have a problem once on a domestic unit where I could not find a leak although the gas was being lost. I left gauges on for a week just to see if the unit held its vacuum which it did. I finally worked out it was the Schraeder valve on the service port, the internal seal had kinked, the gauges by-passed the need of the valve. I assume there must be something similar on cars and might be cheap to fix.

[Click4]

I don't do Auto Air Con, but did have a problem once on a domestic unit where I could not find a leak although the gas was being lost. I left gauges on for a week just to see if the unit held its vacuum which it did. I finally worked out it was the Schraeder valve on the service port, the internal seal had kinked, the gauges by-passed the need of the valve. I assume there must be something similar on cars and might be cheap to fix.

Hi, yep they have shrader valves also, was leaking on high port on my first visit, so I swapped it but noticed yesterday it's still weeping slightly.

Ordered one from jaguar this time, but to eliminate that I screwed the cap down tight... Which will hopefully eliminate it.

If next weekend when I recover its not lost much, then it's probabaly shrader, but if it has lost loads then its likely condenser.. Or Aircon compressor from above.

More inclined to go with condenser because of the whiffs the detector was picking up. But couldn't detect a continuous reading which was what put doubt on that, and didnt wanna be wrong because its an expensive repair in a dealer with genuine parts.

[al]

MS, words to live by, worth be worth being made a sticky by the mods?

alec

[charlie patt]

the front seals leak when crank spins not stationary thats why we hp test um overnight if they hold nitro then leak is the cranks seal is gone if condensor or pipe gone it will just drop nitro overnight dont fit a cheap condensor we have had customers supply there own out of certain dealers we dont mind fitting um because they will be back within two years again cause they are crap buy a oe eqivilent with a two yearwarranty if you need one the jags aint like as focus it takes a while to fit if you do fit one watch the ambient ait sensor they snap of and aint that chaep its positioned on the bumper

[Click4]

the front seals leak when crank spins not stationary thats why we hp test um overnight if they hold nitro then leak is the cranks seal is gone if condensor or pipe gone it will just drop nitro overnight dont fit a cheap condensor we have had customers supply there own out of certain dealers we dont mind fitting um because they will be back within two years again cause they are crap buy a oe eqivilent with a two yearwarranty if you need one the jags aint like as focus it takes a while to fit if you do fit one watch the ambient ait sensor they snap of and aint that chaep its positioned on the bumper



Hi, thanks for advice,

I can't test overnight, I did however buy a manual for the car and now realise condenser comes out from underneath rather than above through front splash guard... Also looks like bumper can also stay on so minimal damage risk by the looks of things.

Only thing is it says the supercharged rad needs to come out, and looks like that radiator is tied into cooling system and has a pump.

Don't wanna touch cooling system, if I loosen the intercooler rad, is there enough movement to get at the condenser?

Doesnt look like bumper or bonnet etc have to come off which is good.

I never use cheap condensers usually, euro car parts sell some good quality branded ones from visteon, hella, berr, etc which are all oem suppliers.

[Click4]

Hi, thanks everyone for all your help and advice it's all appreciated :)

I went back today, can't test the condenser or compressor separately because it needs to go up high and be left overnight really which is not in the realms of mobile work.

Had a look at jaguar manual, and condenser was a job after all which could of been done myself, as it comes out underneath and doesn't require bumper or bonnet removal.

But then I can't get it on ramps without possibility of scraping the bumpers

So, had a look around it and there's definitely uv dye traces up 1 side, likely airflow pushing it up.

Showed the customer, also said that there was whiffs of refrigerant being detected by my detector. So looks to be about 90% conclusive it's condenser... But because it can also be compressor shaft seal, and he is planning on taking it to a jag dealer which means genuine parts and dealer labour I said to get a 2nd opinion off them first, because it is an expensive repair and if I'm wrong you won't be too happy so best get a 2nd Opinion.

[install monkey]

id just keep a bottle of 134a in the passanger footwell!:D