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todd86
10-05-2013, 03:01 AM
Hi i wanted to start a discussion on the subject of engineers who have little training i find the subject very interesting i would like to hear from engineers.

I would like to know how you became knowledgeable, do you hold any qauls e.g F-GAS, type of works you undertake, are self employed, employed, how long you have been in the field.

Thanks guys

:)

frank
10-05-2013, 01:07 PM
With little training I hardly think that you could call them 'Engineers'

Perhaps it would be better to call them 'Trainees'

djbe
10-05-2013, 11:34 PM
With little training I hardly think that you could call them 'Engineers'

Perhaps it would be better to call them 'Trainees'

Careful Frank. Some of us have little training just a lot experience.

e.g I only have 2078 latterly 2079 everything else has been learnt on the job and self taught by studying.

I consider that I have little training, but I also consider myself to be a refrigeration engineer. Just because someone else hasn't shown me how a job should be done doesn't mean I don't understand how it should (or can) be done. Believe me I have seen and rectified plenty of jobs by "trained" people that are not worthy.

20 yrs plus in the business by someone who is interested must count for something?

frank
11-05-2013, 05:58 PM
Trainee, Technician, Engineer. I'm sure that we all fit into 1of these descriptions.

The original OP's question just struck me as a bit of an oxymoron. How can you be an 'engineer' without formal technical training?
Not taking anyone's thunder as I'm sure there are many amongst us that are quite competent working on fridge systems without formal training, but does the title 'engineer' really apply if you don't hold a recognised qualification?

If I'm not mistaken, I think that this subject has been discussed at great length before on here and different countries around the world use the title of engineer and technician in different ways.

Please don't take my comments in the wrong context, I'm not belittling anyone's skill level.

monkey spanners
11-05-2013, 09:40 PM
Heh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JSJuN3UWI

install monkey
11-05-2013, 09:49 PM
haha - now i know how my mother felt!:o

djbe
11-05-2013, 11:40 PM
Trainee, Technician, Engineer. I'm sure that we all fit into 1of these descriptions.

The original OP's question just struck me as a bit of an oxymoron. How can you be an 'engineer' without formal technical training?
Not taking anyone's thunder as I'm sure there are many amongst us that are quite competent working on fridge systems without formal training, but does the title 'engineer' really apply if you don't hold a recognised qualification?

If I'm not mistaken, I think that this subject has been discussed at great length before on here and different countries around the world use the title of engineer and technician in different ways.

Please don't take my comments in the wrong context, I'm not belittling anyone's skill level.

Firstly, I don't take any of your comments in the wrong context. You are expressing an opinion which I appreciate, understand and am in no way offended by;)

But "does the title 'engineer' really apply if you don't hold a recognised qualification?" ? Personally I don't think it makes any difference as long as the "untrained" engineer concerned is capable of coming to the same or even better conclusion than the "trained" engineer.

Bear in mind some people are born with the attributes to make them engineers, the same as some are born with the attributes to make them singers, actors, F1 drivers. Teaching can enhance these attributes but certain things come naturally to certain people.

I believe I am fortunate to be gifted in the general area of engineering, not specifically refrigeration. By this I mean I just tend to understand how things work by looking at them and analyzing operation. But I am cr*p at other things.

Just my thoughts, and an interesting thread.

Take it easy,
Dave.

Josip
13-05-2013, 12:42 AM
Hi, all:)

here is a similar historical discussion about engineers, technicians and workers .... ;)

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?30360-Article-Who-would-be-a-refrigeration-engineer/page2

and one more
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?31648-Safety-of-Society-The-Role-of-the-Engineer


and also this one
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?14084-PE-in-the-USA-what-is-it-in-other-countries


Best regards, Josip :)

cadwaladr
14-05-2013, 12:55 AM
like the young bull said to his dad when they were in a field full of cows dad dad lets run around this field and **** as many cows as we can,son why dont we walk and **** em all!

leegally1983
14-05-2013, 10:09 AM
The name engineer does get thrown around very easy these days I think simply having formal training doesn't make you any better engineer than someone without it. I think training is a good thing and everyone should go through it but in the same instance some of the best engineers I know have very little training. I think having the right frame of mind and being passionate about what you do makes you a better engineer i have worked with guys with every qualification under the sun but tbh they are just lazy and look for any excuse to back heel the job. My opinion experience is the best training you can get but there are certain things about refrigeration etc you wont learn on the tools so a class room is required

1mikeefc1
14-05-2013, 06:01 PM
Also there are engineers out there who are considered good or even senior engineers all down to age, if you do it wrong for 20 years it shouldn't put you further up the ladder surely. I'd personally have someone doing the job the correct way for 5 years than back heeling and short cutting jobs for 20.

djbe
15-05-2013, 10:57 PM
Also there are engineers out there who are considered good or even senior engineers all down to age, if you do it wrong for 20 years it shouldn't put you further up the ladder surely. I'd personally have someone doing the job the correct way for 5 years than back heeling and short cutting jobs for 20.

Well that is a whole different kettle of fish. Unfortunately the same in most areas of business.

Just consider them as politicians, great at getting on but useless at achieving anything of substance.

regards,
djbe.

jdunc2301
16-05-2013, 07:58 PM
It doesn't really matter.....only matters if your worried about your job title ;)

install monkey
16-05-2013, 08:07 PM
well said filter bashing engineer:D

It doesn't really matter.....only matters if your worried about your job title ;)

jdunc2301
16-05-2013, 08:28 PM
You'll love my newest job title!

install monkey
16-05-2013, 08:42 PM
senior east region service technician :confused:

1mikeefc1
17-05-2013, 07:27 PM
Pride in your work comes way above a job title. Call me old fashioned but a happy customer means more than a word before my job title.

andy32
19-05-2013, 01:41 PM
Does any one rate the btec qualies , I have my tech cert fgas etc and loads of other certificates from mitsi and daikin but i cannot get the time off for the day release to do the other half of the nvq

Grizzly
19-05-2013, 02:13 PM
No training is wasted, even if the course turns out to be of little use at the time.
You have met others who through talking to you learn.
You would be surprised how little gems that seem innocuous at the time, have helped me!
Grizzly

cold.man
19-05-2013, 08:19 PM
Every day is a school day......every day we are all learning....Experience is the best qualification anyone can have. The certs are a bonus of course but what makes a kid who has just got there quals a good engineer...experience...without it the knowledge they get in college is useless.
You could have a fantastic engineer with all the quals who has worked on R404 packs for years no problem, put them in front of a R744 pack they crumble. Again experience working on different plant makes them a stronger engineer not the sitting in a class room.

frank
21-05-2013, 07:53 PM
Just back from a short beak in the sun chaps and catching up on the replies. All good points, but it's strange the OP hasn't replied.

It's always difficult interpreting titles in relation to jobs that are associated with the title...for instance, Parking Attendant, Caretaker/Keyholder, Doctors Receptionist........etc :D

Josip
22-05-2013, 11:34 AM
Hi,


Just back from a short beak in the sun chaps and catching up on the replies. All good points, but it's strange the OP hasn't replied.

It's always difficult interpreting titles in relation to jobs that are associated with the title...for instance, Parking Attendant, Caretaker/Keyholder, Doctors Receptionist........etc :D

maybe still not enough inputs to reply;)

Best regards, Josip :)

welray
24-07-2013, 07:42 AM
hi!!!
Well that is a whole different kettle of fish. Unfortunately the same in most areas of business.here is a similar historical discussion about engineers, technicians and workers !!!!!!!!!!

Aspire
24-07-2013, 06:15 PM
Oxford Dictionary :
Engineer : A person trained and skilled in the design, construction, and use of engines or machines, or in any of various branches of engineering: a mechanical engineer; a civil engineer.
2. A person who operates or is in charge of an engine.
3. Also called locomotive engineer this is a person who operates or is in charge of a locomotive.
4. A member of an army, navy, or air force specially trained in engineering work.

As For a Technician :

1. A person employed to look after technical equipment or do practical work in a laboratory: a laboratory technician.

2. An expert in the practical application of a science.

3. A person skilled in the technique of an art or craft.

THE DUDE
25-07-2013, 01:13 AM
That is spot on.

Oxford Dictionary :
Engineer : A person trained and skilled in the design, construction, and use of engines or machines, or in any of various branches of engineering: a mechanical engineer; a civil engineer.
2. A person who operates or is in charge of an engine.
3. Also called locomotive engineer this is a person who operates or is in charge of a locomotive.
4. A member of an army, navy, or air force specially trained in engineering work.

As For a Technician :

1. A person employed to look after technical equipment or do practical work in a laboratory: a laboratory technician.

2. An expert in the practical application of a science.

3. A person skilled in the technique of an art or craft.

santana
24-09-2013, 05:56 AM
With little training I hardly think that you could call them 'Engineers'

Perhaps it would be better to call them 'Trainees'

Good point frank. But still it would be good to have Such discussion so that many new comers will learn many things.

mad fridgie
24-09-2013, 07:19 AM
I can proudly say that I am still in my apprenticeship, still got plenty to learn.
I found that a lot of my minimal knowledge comes from the "school of hard knocks"